Author: Ivor Edwards
Tuesday, 11 June 2002 - 05:12 pm |        |
| Jon, Just another tree in the wood. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Tuesday, 11 June 2002 - 08:23 pm | |
Why were her cries not loud? Because nobody heard the cries! Anyone got the Hungerian translation?
Rosey :-) |
Author: David Radka
Tuesday, 11 June 2002 - 08:28 pm | |
Ivor,
I hope you're not going to leave us as soon as your book comes out in August. This is what R. Michael Gordon did, you know. He appeared here daily for several months leading up to his publication date, probably for the purpose of stimulating interest for a large initial sale, then became quite scarce. Apparently, he was off on a new project as soon as he felt he was done here. We need you here for a long time.
David |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Tuesday, 11 June 2002 - 09:10 pm | |
| Hi David, Thank you for those kind words. Suffice to state that I have no intention of leaving these boards when my book comes out in August.One reason being is that I enjoy the company of those who hold such a passion on the subject. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Tuesday, 11 June 2002 - 11:14 pm | |
Robeer,Managed to get some sleep but woke up so here I go again in answer to your post.
Lawende stated that he checked the club clock and his own watch and stated the time was 1.30am when they got up to leave but they left the club about five minutes later. Levy on the other hand stated they got up to leave at 1.30am but left the club 3-4 minutes later. So they left the club between 1.33am-35am. The club was said to be 15-16 feet from the entrance to Church passage( now St James Passage )which is not much of a distance to walk so they could still have reached it anytime between 1.33am-35am. I wont be devils advocate on the next point so let us ASSUME that the suspect seen with Eddowes was her killer and that the pair walked straight down Church Passage as soon as Lawende and company turned their backs.They reached the site where the murder occurred between say 1.34am and 1.36am.It took Jack one minute to get Eddowes unconscious and onto her side.He then cut her throat while she was on her side and was placed behind her so the flow of blood went away from him.Time is now 1.35am-37am. He then turned her onto her back and did the mutilations and found the time to place the symbols on her cheeks and eyelids.2 minutes for the mutilations and the time now is 1.37am-1.39am.
P.C. Harvey said that he got to the end of Church Passage about 18 or 19 minutes to 2(1.41am-42am )
The killer had enough time to do the job and be on his way before Harvey turned up.The corner where the body was found was alleged to be the darkest in the Square.
When Harvey went in the Square he would not have seen her because she was on the ground and he was not looking on the ground and even if he had of been he would have seen her.
Many years ago I was on enclosed premises (again!) when the alarm was raised and I found myself in a long enclosure about 3 yards wide and 60yards long.A chain link fence ran either side of this long enclosure. Security officers were walking towards me from one end and police officers came in from the other end. If I had made a break for it by climbing over the link fence I would have been seen by both gaurds and police. So I decided to lay flat on the ground.As both groups approached each other they could see each other from either end and they were shining torches around.When both groups were only 10 yards or so either side of me I heard someone say, " Well he is not here" both groups then turned away from me in the direction from which they had come and left.I waited a few minutes and left myself.They were not expecting me to be laying on the ground in front of them so they never beamed their torches on the ground.This is why certain troops are trained to approach their enemy at night by crawling along the ground. They are on top of their adversary before they are ever seen.The principle is the same.
Eddowes was found by P.C. Watkins who stated at the inquest that he fixed the time by reference to his watch after he had called the watchman.Watkins stated the time was about 1.44am. |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 12:23 am | |
Ivor,
Many thanks for this detailed information. I need your help on another thread: The mystery City PC of Mitre Square. This information is germane to the subject and I shall copy what you have written and transfer it to this thread for the benefit of the others who may not have seen it here. This info is exactly what I'm asking for on the other thread. Please come join us.
Robeer |
Author: Harry Mann
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 05:48 am | |
Ivor,
Not to forget that by lying prone or crouched low,other persons will be silhouetted against the sky or lighter objects.
Regards,Harry. |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 11:19 am | |
Hello all,
If one compares the statement Schwartz gave to the police and the one he gave the Star,there are of course inconsistencies .However neither of them seem make a great deal of sense.
There seems to be some confusion and that basic mistakes on the part of each interpreter could have been made in each instance.
Basic misinterpretations like the interplay between each character in the Stride drama
For instance Schwartz's statement to the police says that Stride's attacker shouted over to Pipeman,where as the Star has Pipeman shouting to the attacker.
What seems to me to be a mor likely scenario is the following:
Schwartz sees Stride being pulled around then thrown to the ground by her attacker,he crosses the road eager to avoid getting involved.
By this time he is well past Dutfields yard and cannot see what is going on inside.He then hears Pipeman comming out of the pub and looks back thinking it might be the attacker after him.
Pipe man looks into Dutfields yard and sees Strides attacker with a knife and shouts out "Lipski" as if to say "murdering jew".
At this,Strides attacker walks towards the entrance Dutfields yard wielding the knife.
Pipeman then begins to run,causing timid Mr. Schwartz to think he is after him.
So why didn't Pipeman go to the police?
Well,maybe Pipeman was a Jew himself,maybe he was THE mystery witness who wasn't prepared to testify and see "One of his own" hanged!
Regards,
Mick |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 01:54 pm | |
| Harry, Very true and a good point to make. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 02:02 pm | |
| Arfa.Pipeman was not coming out of the pub he was standing on the corner.Have you been reading the A to Z again ? The pub closed at about 9.00pm according to a juryman at the inquest.I have media reports that 3 different people found the body and one was a small boy who called a passer by. You are right though nothing appears to be straight forward in this case. |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 04:12 pm | |
Hello Ivor,
Yes I probably did pick the pub Idea up from the A-Z.
But now I'm confused.
If Pipeman was already standing on the other side of the road lighting his pipe,this means that Stride's attacker was quite happy to "Go about his business" whilst Pipeman stood watching.
In contrast it must have been obvious to anyone who saw Schwartz,that he was eager to get away as quickly as possible.
All this tends to point towards the posibility that the Ripper had an accomplice.An idea I don't like somehow.
The fact that Schwartz's original police statement
was lost doesn't help matters.
Ivor,I know that you have suggested that Pipeman was JtR,which is an interesting idea,but Im sure that something subtle but nevertheless crucial in Schwartz's evidence has been garbled in the translation,drastically changing its meaning and the implications it has on the case.
Regards,
Mick |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 04:45 pm | |
Hello again,
Another Idea which is not new I know,is that the way Stride reacted towards her attacker tends to suggest that she new him.
Scwhartz describes how he saw a man trying to pull Stride out of the yard and into the street.
Could this have been a furious Michael Kidney discovering her waiting for a customer in a well known pick up spot? Could he initially have been trying to drag her back home.Surely if the man was a stranger she would have screamed her head off rather than giving three quiet cries.
Regards,
Mick |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 05:37 pm | |
Mick,
Good observation. Unless JtR was a mean drunk then this does not sound like his style. I agree that Stride's weak screams don't seem a normal reaction to being assaulted by a total stranger. This was either Kidney or someone else she knew. Kidney should remain high on the list of suspects and I can't understand how the police lost interest in him so quickly. If he was drunk and in a surly mood he could have told Liz, "Come home right this instant or I'll kill you where you stand!" She told him to go to hell and he was a man of his word.
Or she told him it was over, he said good riddance and left the street. JtR witnessed this spat, saw Kidney depart, and moved in on Liz. Who fits this description? Pipeman, if he did indeed hang around or double back.
Robeer |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 06:24 pm | |
Hello Robeer,
When the police questioned Kidney or anyone one else they suspected,they where probably looking for someone whos conscience was going to give him away.
If,as I suspect, the Ripper was anything like Bundy or Sutcliffe,the police had no chance!
Regards,
Mick |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 08:38 pm | |
Robeer,
no matter which way I look at it,I can't make this Pipeman doubling back idea work.
I just cannot see him bothering to wait around to see the outcome of the attack on Stride, hoping he would be provided with his next victim.
Surely he would have been aware of the danger that struggle between Stride and the first man could have attracted alot of attention,people nearby looking out of their windows etc.
And why would pipeman draw attention to himself by running after Schwartz?
It must have been obvious to him that Schwartz was eager to leave the scene anyway, as he was crossing the road so as to avoid trouble.
A more likely scenario is that Schwartz WAS Strides attacker and was spotted carrying out the assault by Pipeman who then chased and lost him.
When the police questioned Schwartz he "modified" the details of what actually ocurred,including Pipeman in his story ,fearing that Pipeman would identify him at some point.
Regards,
Mick. |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 09:17 pm | |
Mick,
Interesting speculation. Julian Rosenthal seems to be skeptical of the Schwartz story as well. Maybe he will join this discussion and tell us why.
Robeer |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Thursday, 13 June 2002 - 02:17 pm | |
Arfa.This is what we do know.
We have 3 men on the scene one can be accounted for the other two cannot.That gives us two suspects one of which was seen to attack the victim.When we look at the evidence the nature of the attack is not the Ripper's MO.The police were of the opinion that the man seen to attack Stride may not have been her killer. This leaves the second man. Dr Bond was of the opinion that the killer wore an overcoat and the only man out of our three who wore an overcoat was the man standing in the doorway. |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Thursday, 13 June 2002 - 03:53 pm | |
Hello Ivor,
When you say the nature of the attack was not the Rippers MO.
Presumably you mean the fact that unlike the other victims,Stride wasn't mutilated. Of course one can argue that the killer was interupted by Diemshutz.
But more important is the fact that the Stride murder did show significant similarities to the others in that the murderer had layed his victim down before opening up the left corotid artery with his knife.This was somebody who had killed before and someone who knew how to avoid getting spattered with blood.
Regards,
Mick |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Thursday, 13 June 2002 - 08:10 pm | |
| Hi Arfa, I believe that Stride was killed by the Ripper but that her attacker( seen by Schwartz ) was not her killer. Jack never gave his victims a chance to scream and the attack on Stride was very different from the way Jack went about his work. He did not walk down the street and attack the first prostitute he saw neither did he throw his victims on the ground alive so that they could scream their heads off if they so wished.I agree with your comments above and I believe Jack knew exactly what he was doing when it came to using medical knowledge.I also believe that he had killed before he started on his Whitechapel spree. |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Friday, 14 June 2002 - 06:45 am | |
Hello again Ivor,
I know that you have been carrying out some really detailed and painstaking research involving distances between the murders and the geography of all the relevant locations that had a part to play in the Whitechapel mystery.
I am also aware that you are of the opinon that JtR killed his victims in very precise, predetermined locations.
The problem I have with this theory is that most of the locations where bodies were found were known prostitute "Haunts".
places each victim would have led JtR to.
In Stride's case she was clearly waiting,hoping to service a client or two in Dutfield's yard.
It is surely asking to much to suggest that Stride's chosen "Patch" matched precisely,the next spot mapped out on,as you suppose, the Rippers meticulously planned itinerary.
Regards,
Mick |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Friday, 14 June 2002 - 08:11 pm | |
Hi Mick,
Good question and I will try to answer it. Say for auguments sake that I am the ripper and that I have already killed Nichols and Stride but the police believe that I have killed several more prostitutes. They then think of a measure that they can introduce which will make my task all the more difficult and one which will possibly be the cause of my being stopped and questioned.So they decide to stop and question every male seen in the company of a female after midnight.This in fact happened so I simply counter-act them by arranging in future to meet my victims on site.To do this I promise them a carrot so to speak in the form of money. Thus I am never seen in their company walking to the site.We have no evidence to show that Dutfields Yard was Strides 'patch'. But we do know that she was possibly waiting for someone because she was heard to turn a possible client down. The evidence is that she was hanging around Dutfields Yard in the rain waiting, but waiting for who? The suspect who met Kelly was heard to say that she would be alright for what he had promised her.Also it has been stated that Eddowes could have arranged to meet someone at Mitre Square.I have never ventured to say that the killer's chosen spot matched a victim's chosen spot. |
Author: Tom Wescott
Saturday, 15 June 2002 - 01:47 am | |
Mick,
I used to disregard the idea that the Ripper may have pre-arranged his dates with some of the victims. However, I had to reconsider the notion when 'The Ultimate JTR Companion' was published and included a newspaper article stating that an unnamed unfortunate informed had informed the police that Eddowes had been approached some days before her death by a man claiming to be of the faith who gave her some money and arranged a meeting. According to the article the police then picked up on the idea that Eddowes may have indeed pre-arranged a meeting with her killer. They also considered the idea that Stride was killed by an accomplice. What gives this article credence is that the police considered it of such importance that they kept it in their official files. Eddowes also allegedly told a lodging house keeper that she knew the Ripper's identity. Of course, a lot of people 'thought' they knew the Ripper, so this may mean nothing, but it is interesting, and Ivor's above suggestion does have its foundation in the official records. As for the prostitute's 'Haunts', you must remember that Eddowes was not known to work Mitre Square, and it was considered a bad place to pick up johns as it was generally dead at night. The general lack of movement in the square the night of the murder will attest to that.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Robeer
Saturday, 15 June 2002 - 03:07 am | |
Tom,
One of the problems in pouring over the archives as I like to do is that you end up reading so much information you soon forget where you read it. One message I read said the major attraction to Mitre Square for prostitutes was the empty houses bordering the square. Evidently they were able to gain entry into some of the houses to the extent night watchmen and PCs were constantly shooing them away. I wish I could remember where I read this post but it was several months ago and I don't have a clue.
On the JtR Casebook Productions web site there is an excellant map of Mitre Square that shows the location of these empty houses. There are 3 or 4 around the square. What is curious is why would there be so many empty houses in an area that was so overcrowded?
I would think the main attraction to the Mitre Square area were the pubs and clubs that workingmen frequented. Prostitutes have to go where the customers are. Eddowes' destination that night was probably the front sidewalk of The Imperial Club.
The inactivity of the square was bad for finding potential clients but after finding one, good to take them there for the very reasons you mention.
Robeer |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Saturday, 15 June 2002 - 07:17 am | |
Hello Ivor and Tom,
This idea of pre-arranged meetings is a fascinating one.Something I had not given a lot of thought to.And yes Ivor,I had forgotten about
Long Liz refusing an earlier customer,telling him "not tonight,some other night".There is of course the possibility that the customer requested a particular "Service" that Stride simply couldn't stomach on that particular night!
Ivor,if we return to your theory that bodies where precisely positioned according to a predetermined layout,how do you explain the fact that Kelly's corpse was lying on her bed?
This is too much of a coincidence.The position and orientation of the bed just happned to be exactly right,Kelly was laying the right way up and the bed hadn't been moved.
This sounds to me like convenience rather than design.
Regards,
Mick |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Saturday, 15 June 2002 - 11:50 am | |
Mick,
The killer knew in advance that he was going to kill Kelly in her room which was in fact a very small room.He had been to the room prior to the murder he simply pin pointed her room on a map as I had done. The murders were committed in the reverse order in which they were planned.When I knew that all the distances from victim to victim were not coincidences I knew the only way one could achieve such precise results was to plan it all on a map with the aid a compass and a square. It tok me 3 years to find out where the plan started and where it ended. Then I found out by taking compass bearings in the field that the first four murders were committed at the four points of the compass.
It is impossible for anyone to commit five murders in a built up area like Whitechapel at random and achieve the same results which I have discovered. To achieve such results you must work with precision using an O/S map ,a compass,and a square. I have gone over this with dozens if not hundreds of people for years from Professor Henry, staff at Surrey university, to Melvin Harris and all agree with my findings. In fact no one has yet been able to prove my findings wrong because of the amount of factual evidence.If people in the world of Ripperology wish to ignore such evidence then that is fine by me. I was informed by many people that it is not in the interests of everyone to agree with my findings and some will either ignore them or try to discredit me in the process and such advice has turned out to be correct.I know of instances where people have tried to steal my work as their own but I take it all in my stride. The subject does contain people who are not what they appear to be and they will go to any lengths to lie and take credit for what others have achieved. Such people should be exposed for what they truly are.
They are nothing more than dishonest cheats, liars,con artists,and very sad people who deserve all the bad karma they receive.One should do well to remember these words for the day will come when they will be proven to be correct in every aspect. |
Author: Robeer
Saturday, 15 June 2002 - 07:04 pm | |
Ivor, Arfa, Radka,
Schwartz told police that he was walking past Berner Street at 12:45 AM to see if his wife was moving. Does this sound odd to anyone? Do we assume they are separated? Is he spying on his wife? Are they trying to sneak out on the landlord? Would this be so common a practice that the police accepted this as a plausible excuse? Just curious.
Robeer
PS
Is it just me or does the the name line above sound like the conjugation of a verb? |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Saturday, 15 June 2002 - 08:19 pm | |
| Robeer,It did seem odd to me when I first learnt of the details. Perhaps for some reason the move was not certain to take place so Schwartz was checking to see if it had gone ahead. Any number of reasons could have existed but I do see your point. |
Author: Tom Wescott
Saturday, 15 June 2002 - 11:53 pm | |
Hello all,
It is not impossible that Schwartz made the whole story up to impress his wife and win her back, assuming of course that her move was against his will.
As for Ivor's findings, I don't see why a few feet or even meters would have made much of a difference. Therefore, 13 Miller's Court didn't HAVE to be the location of the crime, anywhere in Miller's Court or the nearby vicinity would have done. Do you agree, Ivor?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Sunday, 16 June 2002 - 04:58 am | |
Hello Tom,
We are not just talking about location in terms of relative distance.According to Ivor's theory ,the final orientation of each body was pre- planned.
Regards,
Mick |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Sunday, 16 June 2002 - 06:35 pm | |
Tom, and Mick,
Tom you are correct the first four victims were killed to profane the Christian cross hence why they were found, East, North, South, and West in that order. Kelly had to be killed to profane another Christian symbol so she could have been killed at any point along which that symbol was drawn. Jack simply drew his plan on a map picked the chosen sites on the map and then transfered the chosen sites on that map to the actual places.The same principle works with ley lines and places of sacrifice etc. |
Author: Clyde
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 02:08 am | |
Hello All,
Arfa,
It is my uneducated opinion that Liz would never leave her spot close to a busy club of drinking working men to follow a single man. The man she turned down with "Not tonight..." probably asked her a question that required her to leave her post. He may have asked her to go get a drink which was probably a common pick up line for prostitutes at the time. Business could then be discussed walking away from the initial contact point. I dont know how many men were in the club but I believe she thought her chances of a multiple "score" were increased if she did not leave her spot.
If I were a policeman on this case, I would dare to say that one of the men she may have turned down that night was JtR. Possibly the man refered to in the witness statement above.
Maybe Jack was turned down by Stride in his ploy to get her into a back alley. Went down the street, couldnt find any other potential victims, decided that he had waited long enough and was eager to get to work. He then went back to Stride and told her "Ok, how about right here?" She of course agrees, backs into the alley, gets her breath mints out anticipating the obvious, and Jack has other ideas. Jack chokes her out, slashes her throat and realizes that in his quest to get busy with his business he has left himself very open to discovery. Either this or he is disturbed by that guy on the horse and buggy. Either way, he realizes that he cant do what he came to do and leaves the area. Low and behold he finds the other girl down the street somewhere and she is willing to play his way. After he kills her you see what he had on his mind all the time for Stride but is unable to finish.
Now experts, please pick this theory apart. It is only by discounting the ridiculous that we see a better route.
Clyde |
Author: Robeer
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 05:01 pm | |
Clyde,
That is an interesting take on the situation and if she were a full time prostitute that would be a reasonable explanation. However, its not clear that Liz had ever been a fulltime prostitute and certainly not for a good while. If your read her history she had a coffee house with one male companion who died and then she took up with Kidney who did not want her on the street or hanging out in pubs. Liz had a day job and mentioned to another woman on the day she was murdered she was leaving for a while. That evening she was seen in various parts of the street with a date listening to the singing from the club in the rain. Later she takes a much lower profile in Dutfield's Yard. She was obviously waiting for someone. What is not clear is if she was open for business that night.
One could argue yes because she was seen with 2 or 3 men all of whom she could have serviced to earn enough money to leave Kidney and she was waiting for more in Dutfield's Yard. On the other hand, she seems casual in her attitude, almost carefree and and happy, like cheerful anticipation. She seemed in no hurry and strolled around the vicinity in a leisurely manner, relaxed and enjoying the evening. No one saw her enter and leave with a customer and she was overheard to decline an offer. My feeling is she had an early date and a late date. The late date is the one she was excited about enough to hang around Dutfield's Yard on a cold, wet night. The question arises, was she set up by JtR?
Robeer |
Author: Clyde
Tuesday, 18 June 2002 - 03:40 am | |
Hello All,
Robeer,
Thank you for the input. I was not aware that Stride was not considered a full time prostitute. I was under the impression that all of the victims earned the majority of their income from prostitution. If what you say is true about her day job (I have no reason to believe you are in error) then she possibly supplimented her income with prostitution earnings.
I'm not sure I agree with the waiting on someone theory. If she had agreed to meet someone at that hour, why would she have not met them closer to her home. If she had intended to meet a person and the person didn't show, she then would be that much closer to her home if prostitution was not her motivation. If in fact prostitution was her motivation, she was in a very good place to solicit business.
You state that she had been seen in the street with a date listening to the singing from the club while standing outside in the rain. How long had she been in the area? I suppose that if she had been seen in the area of the club periodically throughout the night over a course of hours and had left suddenly being sighted somewhere else standing around turning down dates I could believe the meeting someone theory. To me,it seems she was working the area of the club for some time during the course of the evening not wanting to leave. Not because she was meeting someone there but because business was good. If she was meeting someone, wouldn't she at least try to get out of the rain? Knowing what the person she was meeting looked like, she could hail them from a sheltered vantage point as they came walking by. From the way I understand the scene, she stayed out in view of all passers-by despite the rain.
Experts? Please correct any inaccuracy freely.
Clyde |
Author: Harry Mann
Tuesday, 18 June 2002 - 05:59 am | |
Robeer,
That she was waiting for someone seems a likely explanation,but was it someone with whom she had arranged a meeting,or someone who she knew used that area on frequent occasions,and might chance by that night.The latter might appear a more possible answer,given the kind of night it was and the time she herself remained in the locality. |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 19 June 2002 - 05:02 am | |
Harry,
I think your right. Either it was a prearranged meeting or someone who frequented the club she wanted to make contact with. She had made the decision earlier in the day she was going away, but with whom? Was she trying to earn money that night to pay for a train ride or looking for that person who had offered to take her away? Did Kidney intercept her and spoil her plans? Or did JtR come along and take her life?
Or did JtR set her up in the first place?
Robeer |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 19 June 2002 - 06:06 am | |
Clyde,
You ask some very good questions, because the actions by Liz Stride that night were peculiar. First, she makes a high profile appearance on the street as if to send a message to Kidney that their relationship is over. Her strolling the neighborhood with other men could have been a demonstration for Kidney's benefit. Anyone who knew Liz would take notice and word was bound to get back to Kidney and Liz had to know that.
So it's possible an enraged Kidney was searching for Liz and finally found her. That is why Kidney should remain high on the list of suspects. However, just because he found her doesn't mean he killed her. He may have been satisfied throwing her in the mud and ruining her best dress. Having spoiled her evening and her outfit may have been enough and he went home. JtR could have witnessed this scuffle and approached Liz in the guise of a helpful bystander.
Only problem is the Schwartz description of the man in the scuffle is very similar to the man seen at Duke Street with Kate Eddowes. If they are the same man then our image of JtR must be adjusted because he may have been more aggressive and reckless than we thought. To engage Liz in front of witnesses is extremely high risk unless JtR was very confident of his disguise. He intimidated both witnesses to leave so he could finish the job on Long Liz in the dark.
JtR may have liked the idea of taking a victim next to such a public place. This may have fed his ego. Only he was interrupted by Diemschutz who felt like there was someone still in the yard judging from the behavior of his pony. JtR could have taken out his frustration on Eddowes where the face of a victim is mutilated for the frist time. He promised to send ears to the press. A severed ear fell from Eddowes clothing as her body was moved, which indicates once again JtR had to leave the body because of an intrusion. Could be either Morris or Harvey caused this sudden departure.
The question of why Liz didn't seek shelter is very curious. She stayed out in the rain to listen to the singing. Her escort indulged her preference by remaining by her side. Why she didn't seek the warmth of a nearby pub is hard to explain.
Her attitude changes as the night goes on. She is still in the open air on a damp night that is turning cold but now hiding out in Dutfield's Yard. She obviously won't go home but why this spot and not somewhere at least out of the rain? Did the rain stop while she was in the yard? The weather would seem to discourage customers by that time of night. No one saw Liz taking any customers in and out of Dutfield's Yard but then maybe she was very discreet. Perhaps she did have an arrangement with a local pub for use of a backroom as Graziano advocates, so we just don't know.
However, as I indicated in the post above I still get the feeling she was waiting for someone in one of the two situations mentioned by Harry. She might have been trying to rack up as many customers as possible that night to fund her trip but I still think she was waiting for a rendezvous of some sort. Maybe its the cachous found in her hand. Why bother with those if she was only going to offer her rump to each customer that night? She was dressed up with a bonnet and flowers on her dress and breath mints. It just sounds more like she was trying to look her best for someone. I can't prove it. Just a feeling.
Robeer |
Author: Caroline Morris
Wednesday, 19 June 2002 - 06:53 am | |
Hi Robeer,
Wasn't Stride the one who asked a friend to look after a piece of velvet fabric for her?
An earlier pressy from someone Stride had a date with perhaps?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 19 June 2002 - 07:49 am | |
Caz,
Where did you read about that? More indication she was planning a trip. Is a piece of fabric the kind of gift a man would give a woman in 1888? If so, you might be right, unless it was a peace offering or enticement from Kidney to come home.
What does your woman's intuition tell you about Liz Stride's behavior that night? Was she circulating for customers or demonstrating to the neighborhood she had left Kidney for good? Maybe she was even pouring salt on the wound by taking a high profile on the streets. She seemed to be going out of her way to attract attention earlier in the evening.
Later her tactics change perhaps knowing by then Kidney is drunk and it's best to hide out. Where did Liz intend to stay that night? It was getting late and it was time for her to make a move. Did she expect someone to take her home? Could Schwartz have been her late date but was scared off by JtR? The Schwartz story sounds suspect about why he was out that late. Is that why his conscience got the best of him to report to the police, because he panicked and didn't help the woman he had a date with?
Robeer |
Author: Caroline Morris
Wednesday, 19 June 2002 - 12:11 pm | |
Hi Robeer,
I've just found a reference on page 435 of the A-Z. After borrowing the clothes brush from Charles Preston, at 7pm on September 29, at her Flower and Dean lodging house, Liz gave Catherine Lane the piece of velvet 'to look after until she came back. She left looking cheerful'.
For some reason, I have it in my mind that the velvet was green, but I may have dreamt that bit.
Anyway, I'm not sure my intuition will help much. For a start, do we know if the area around Dutfield's Yard was a regular patch for Liz to work? Would it have been an obvious place for Michael Kidney to think of looking for her, if he wanted to, or more to the point, if Liz thought he might try to find her that night? We are told he hadn't seen her for about five days, and wasn't disturbed by her absence.
I suppose Kidney would say that, wouldn't he? But then, he also admitted trying to padlock Liz in to stop her frequent absences when drinking - an odd admission, perhaps, if he was worried that suspicion was now going to fall on him for the violent death of his ex. And no doubt the police did all they could to check his statements and his alibi, in light of the fact that Liz had given him in charge to PC 357H for assault the previous year (although she failed to appear in court, so the prosecution could not proceed). I also note that Kidney described his attempts to padlock Liz in as 'unsuccessful'.
My overall feeling is that Liz would not have felt overly intimidated by Kidney, and probably had other, lighter things on her mind that night than worrying about whether he might show up to make threats or cause trouble. Nor do I think it very likely that he did so.
But whether or not Liz was naive enough to think she could be in for something special that night, perhaps with a young man who had been plying her with strips of velvet, flowers or grapes, and promises of more to come, and who had turned standing in the rain into a mistily romantic rather than miserable pastime for her, my intuition doesn't go that far I'm afraid.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Jim DiPalma
Wednesday, 19 June 2002 - 12:58 pm | |
Hi All,
From the October 3 1888 Daily Telegraph's coverage of the Stride inquest:
[Coroner] Did you see her leave the lodging-house? - Yes; she gave me a piece of velvet as she left, and asked me to mind it until she came back. (The velvet was produced, and proved to be a large piece, green in colour.)
So Caz, you weren't dreaming :-)
Cheers,
Jim |
Author: Robeer
Wednesday, 19 June 2002 - 01:57 pm | |
Caz ,
Thanks for the info. Caz you didn't answer if giving a piece of velvet material is a gift a man would think of giving in 1888. It sounds a little odd from our perspective today, kind of like saying, "Here's the material now go make it yourself!", but might have been an impressive gift in 1888. What this story proves is that Liz had plans on leaving the area for awhile and sounds like she wasn't sure when she would return.
One newspaper said she had no known relatives and another said her body was identified by a sister who had a premonition of her death. It could be she was going to visit her sister. Whoever it may have been, she was happy about the impending trip and seemed cheerful and carefree the night she was murdered. Sounds like a person looking forward to something, or someone.
Robeer |
Author: Martin Fido
Wednesday, 19 June 2002 - 03:38 pm | |
Most women made most of their own clothes in 1888, Robeer, or had fabric made up for them by a hired sempstress or dressmaker.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Wednesday, 19 June 2002 - 08:26 pm | |
Dear Caroline,
Jack the Bridegroom?
Rosey :-) |
