Author: Mike Hillman
Wednesday, 16 May 2001 - 11:43 pm |        |
Did Constable Watkins make contact with a suspect near Mitre Square or not? At the inquest of Catherine Eddowes he testfies he saw no one in the area. In a TV documentary
he is quoted as reporting an encounter with a prime suspect coming from Mitre Square. The suspect speaks to Watkins in passing. According to this documentary Watkins gives a vived description of the suspect. Minutes after this encounter Watkins discovers the victim in Mitre Square. He concludes the suspect must have seen the body and said nothing therefore must be the killer. If all this is true why did he lie at the inquest? Evidently this incident is mentioned by Rumbelow in his book The Complete Jack the Ripper. Did Watkins fabricate this story to embellish his role in the case or was he following orders to keep quiet at the inquest? If the story is true and the encounter really happened then Watkins becomes the most important eyewitness of all. His description eleminates a whole list of suspects. Only three known suspects would fit his description of appearance and accent. Did anyone see this TV program? Is anyone familiar with this incident according to Rumbelow? Is Watkins considered reliable given his answers at the inquest versus his alternative story of contact with the suspect? Has this conflict already been debunked or is the Watkins story accepted as legitimate? Any help would be most appreciated. |
Author: Robeer
Thursday, 17 May 2001 - 07:40 pm | |
| Watkins, in fact, did not see any suspects so he was truthful at the inquest. A rookie police officer on a stake out is the one who spoke to the suspect. The police officer's name was Steve White who gives a detailed description in Rumbelow's book The Complete Jack the Ripper on pp. 134 - 136. White's description has the highest probability of being an accurate portrayal of Jack. White's first impression of the suspect was a foreigner because of his "jet black hair" and "sallow" complexion. But as he got closer White noticed the suspect had light eyes that reflected in the dark. The voice convinced White the suspect was no foreigner and that he might be a "student or professional". White felt the suspect was "sinister" in his appearence and manner. Moments later the body of the victim was discovered. |
Author: Martin Fido
Friday, 18 May 2001 - 04:30 am | |
Oops, Robeer! Check out through the Keyword Search for Stewart Evans' clear and convincing objections to the whole Steve White story as you summarize it. (And White wasn't a rookie: he was a detective sergeant. His real historical connection with he Ripper case was interviewing Matthew Packer in the course of the house-to-house inquiries).
All good wishes,
Martin F |
Author: Robeer
Sunday, 20 May 2001 - 01:16 am | |
Martin,
Thank you for your message. I assume you are the author of the book on this case. Are you British? The reason for asking is I have some questions about vernacular usage of certain English words that may have a bearing on interpreting witness testimonies.
Have you been to Mitre Square? Perhaps you can answer my question regardless. Did Mitre Square have a pedestrian walkway connecting to Duke Street in 1888? It would be a logical inclusion to the architectual design recognizing the need for easy access front to back for maintenance and other practical matters. Seems like one author suggested there was such access front to back. I think his point was JTR and Eddowes did not enter the Square together but entered from two different directions. If true then which way did Jack choose to leave the Square?
Are you familiar with the Abrahams case? Just stumbled on to it browsing in a used book store.
Finanlly found the Stewart Evans article and lively discussion in response to it. Will respond to his point of view after some further study. Is there a complete copy of the People's Choice article anywhere on the Internet? If not it would be a welcome edition to The Casebook file. Is it possible to copy the article? Did Rumbelow make a complete copy?
Am anxious to read your book. Will order it forthwith.
Robeer |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 20 May 2001 - 11:44 am | |
Hi, Robeer:
Since Martin has gone away for a few days, I will answer for him. Indeed, Martin Fido is the esteemed author of The Crimes, Detection, and Death of Jack the Ripper, a coauthor of The Jack the Ripper A to Z along with Paul Begg and Keith Skinner, author of numerous other books on famous crimes and criminals, as well as a biographer of Charles Dickens and Oscar Wilde. Martin has also led many tours of the East End, so of course he has been to Mitre Square.
To answer your question about the entrances into Mitre Square, there were a number of ways to access Mitre Square, i.e., on the west, a large and lit opening from Mitre Street; at the northeast corner of the square, Church Passage, which gave access to and from Duke Street; and at the northwest corner, St. James Passage, a narrow, covered passage which ran from St. James Square into Mitre Square. See the maps on the Casebook Productions site at http://www.casebook-productions.org/main.htm
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 20 May 2001 - 12:00 pm | |
Hi, Robeer:
I should have mentioned that in answer to your question about whether Mr. Fido is British, he is indeed British, although he is temporarily living in the United States because he currently has the duty of helping to take care of an aged in-law.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Robeer
Sunday, 20 May 2001 - 08:06 pm | |
Chris
Thank you for your kind response to my questions.
I look forward to reading Mr Fido's book and conversing with him. Do you take an interest in this famous case yourself?
Robeer |
Author: Robeer
Monday, 21 May 2001 - 05:40 pm | |
Martin,
Have you read "40 Years of Scotland Yard" by Frederick Porter Wensley? He begins his career as a constable with the Met Police patrolling Lambeth in 1888. He mentions some interesting things about the murders in Whitechapel.
In response to these shocking murders the Met had constables patrolling in pairs. Some constables applied rubber to their shoes:"To our clumsy regulation boots we nailed strips of rubber, usually bits of old bicycle tires, and so insured some measure of silence when walking."
He further mentions an insane man with a walking cane-sword who is arrested during this time, the Francis Coles murder, and the murder of Constable Ernest Thompson who was stabbed by a young man named Abrahams. Thompson had intervened when Abrahams was "forcing his attentions on some young women at the stall". Abrahams was convicted of manslaughter and died in prison.
Of interest, Wensley mentions Steven White in the book. It was in the William Seaman murder case April 1896. Sir Melville Macnaghten is chief constable of CID and "My immediate chief, Stephen White, the local detective inspector, had a look at him and was able to recount some fragments of his history, which were amplified by a glance at the records."
Wensley also talks about patrolling Whitechapel Road.
All of these observations give credibility to the story as told by 'Steve' White. First, Wensley confirms the Met was using officers in pairs as mentioned in White's account. If police officers were using rubber soles on their shoes then it confirms that JTR certainly could have done the same. Wensley also indicates the Met was patrolling Whitechapel Road. All three of these points support White's story.
I remember reading that all available manpower was applied to the Ripper manhunt. It is possible Met constables were loaned to the City police or there was some agreement the Met could overlap territory with the City. There was also a stakeout of a suspect who lived in Aldgate. All of the above lends weight to White's story.
What is somewhat confusing is the fact there were three ways to access Mitre Square. The main entrance, Church passage, and St. James passage. If Mitre Square was the object of the stakeout it would take a minimum of three men. White mentions two men he was supervising. Was White the third lookout?
If White's team were only assigned Mitre Street, then other teams would need to cover Duke Street and St. James place. If so, that is a lot of manpower devoted to surrounding Mitre Square. It would indicate the police had some compelling reason to focus on this compound.
Question:
In Cullen's book doesn't he make mention of another possible suicide by drowning of a medical student pulled from the Thames? This body had black and white paint on his face, perhaps to resemble a skull. It seems that a prankster with face paint had created a near riot and had run from an angry mob. Maybe they caught him and threw him in the Thames. If so this might be why Macnaghten confused Druitt as a med student; unless, as Rumbelow seems to suspect, that Macnaghten knew more than he ever acknowledged. It could be that Druitt saw little future in his law practice and had recently enrolled in med school.
Robeer |
Author: Robeer
Tuesday, 22 May 2001 - 12:09 am | |
Martin or Chris
Unable to find Stewart Evan's extended response and analysis to the Steve White story. Is it a dissertation or response on the Message Board? I thought I found it once before but now I can't seem to locate it. Please be specific. I've tried keyword search without luck. Appreciate your help.
Robeer
|
Author: Martin Fido
Saturday, 26 May 2001 - 09:03 am | |
Hi Robeer,
Yes, I'm very familiar with Wensley - probably the greatest Metropolitan CID officer of the 20th century. But, alas, too young to give us more than the background details you recount on the Ripper case.
His very warm memories of Macnaghten are interesting, given the extent to which the Police Gazette (voicing the views of the copper on the beat) was consistently (and probably rightly)inssiting that most of the 'toffs' who became Commisioners and Asst Commissioners were in the end completely dependent on their plebeian juniores, the inspectors and superintendents, for their supposed achievements. Wensley would have been a better Asst Commissioner than any he served under except Henry. But his warm memory of Macnaghten's encouragement speks well of sir Melville as a man, even if we historians must regret that he was inaccurate as a memorialist.
All good wishes,
Martin F |
Author: Mike Hillman
Wednesday, 16 May 2001 - 11:18 pm | |
Did Constable Watkins make contact with a suspect near Mitre Square or not? At the inquest of Catherine Eddowes he testfies he saw no one in the area. In a TV documentary
he is quoted as reporting an encounter with a prime suspect coming from Mitre Square. The suspect speaks to Watkins in passing. According to this documentary Watkins gives a vived description of the suspect. Minutes after this encounter Watkins discovers the victim in Mitre Square. He concludes the suspect must have seen the body and said nothing therefore must be the killer. If all this is true why did he lie at the inquest? Evidently this incident is mentioned by Rumbelow in his book The Complete Jack the Ripper. Did Watkins fabricate this story to embellish his role in the case or was he following orders to keep quiet at the inquest? If the story is true and the encounter really happened then Watkins becomes the most important eyewitness of all. His description eleminates a whole list of suspects. Only three known suspects would fit his description of appearance and accent. Did anyone see this TV program? Is anyone familiar with this incident according to Rumbelow? Is Watkins considered reliable given his answers at the inquest versus his alternative story of contact with the suspect? Has this conflict already been debunked or is the Watkins story accepted as legitimate? Any help would be most appreciated. |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 20 May 2001 - 04:31 pm | |
Hello Mike
I've been away from the boards for a couple of weeks, so I'm just catching up with the latest and this just caught my eye.
Are you sure this incident is mentioned in Rumbelow's first version of his book?
I have a copy and cannot find it, nor does it appear to be in his revised version (Jack the Ripper, The Complete Casebook)
To be honest, I've never heard of the alternate incident you describe.
Regards, Jon |
Author: Julian Rosenthal
Tuesday, 22 May 2001 - 09:23 pm | |
G'day Mike, Jon. Good to see you both.
Good question Mike, but don't believe everything you see on T.V. As the old saying goes, 'don't let the truth get in the way of a good story'.
Did the documentary quote the source of his alleged allegation in which he mentions encountering his 'prime' suspect?
I also have had a look through my Jack 'stuff' and can't find any mention of this incident.
Don't be disparraged though, it might be something worth looking into.
Jules |
Author: Walter Timothy Mosley
Tuesday, 17 July 2001 - 01:09 pm | |
I see mention of this incident in my 1975 edition of Rumbelow's book - was it later edited out? This does seem promising and it is a good question as to why it has never been explored in more depth. If you gentlemen cannot locate the passage in question, please advise and I will try to e-mail it to you.
WTM |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Wednesday, 18 July 2001 - 03:31 am | |
Hi Walter, All,
Neither of my later hard or softback editions appear to mention this incident. Maybe Rumbelow found the source for the story was too unreliable to keep repeating?
Who did Watkins allegedly give the vivid description to, and when, and are there any details of what he said?
It's certainly intriguing, when you consider that Lawende was asked at the inquest not to give a full description of the man he saw. Could Watkins have been similarly asked not to mention his own encounter - especially if the descriptions happened to match? The City PC witness, perhaps?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Walter Timothy Mosley
Wednesday, 18 July 2001 - 12:39 pm | |
Hello, Caroline:
I have kept poor Mike waiting for this information a lot longer than I should have, as I first brought it to his attention some time ago.
This incident appears in great detail in my 1975 paperback by Rumbelow, only I think the name is White, not Watkins. As it is text quoted from some other source, there should not be a problem in reproducing it here. I will try scanning it and see how it looks.
You raise some interesting points in your message above, but Heaven help us - another conspiracy is in the offering!
WTM |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Wednesday, 18 July 2001 - 01:02 pm | |
Hi Walter,
I wasn't suggesting any conspiracy - it would be natural, assuming Lawende's description was held back for perfectly legitimate reasons, to need to hold back any matching description - the least song and dance made about it the better - and a simple matter if it was a policeman's description.
But now you tell me it could have been White - oh dear.... back to square one, if that's the case. 
Love,
Caz |
Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 18 July 2001 - 07:06 pm | |
| I think there is a confusion here between PC Watkins and PC ( alias Detective Sergeant ) Stephen White. |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 18 July 2001 - 08:07 pm | |
Ah, mystery solved.
Once again, a little attention to detail is all it took.
I was looking through my 1976 reprint of the 1975 'The Complete Jack the Ripper' (Rumbelow). And find no mention of the above details.
Then I compared my 1990 reprint of the 1988 'Jack the Ripper, The Complete Casebook' edition and low and behold Donald has extended a chapter, No.7 - Suspects, page 169. Donald retell's the Detective 'Steve' White story about the long faced man with sallow complexion and an "extraordinary brilliance of his eyes".
Regards, Jon |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 18 July 2001 - 08:50 pm | |
Shrouded in Mystery : Stephen White, Amos Simpson and "Catharine Eddowes' Shawl"
Andrew L Morrison
http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-amos.html |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 19 July 2001 - 03:36 am | |
Yeah, Jon, as soon as Walter mentioned White, I realised it must be his vivid description (the story no one relies on), and nothing to do with Watkins. So I went back to Rumbelow and sure enough found it all under White in the index, where I had previously been looking under Watkins.
That's what I meant when I said back to square one.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Walter Timothy Mosley
Thursday, 19 July 2001 - 12:47 pm | |
Hello Caroline et.al.:
Yes, the story I remembered is in the 1976 printing of Rumbelow's book in paperback, starting on page 163. It had been a while since I read it and thus I confused the names Watkins and White. Thank you all for clearing this up for Mike and others interested.
I too tend to discredit the testimony, but it is just another point of contradiction and confusion that will probably never be cleared up satisfactorily.
WTM
This will be the chat topic for the week after next, BTW:
"Eyewitnesses - whose testimony can we really trust?"
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