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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Seaside witness
Casebook Message Boards: Witnesses: General Discussion:
Seaside witness
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Tuesday, 29 August 2000 - 08:00 am |        | Since some little discussions have taken place on the generous offering of alternative message boards I'm gonna copy the content of one I had recently started. And in regard to this discussion I hope the contributors to this particular discussion won't mind me copying their answers.
On Monday July 31 2000 I had posted the following under the title 'Ada Wilson and the police witness' in CP's Message Board (also posted on August 24 2000 in whitechapel88)
"Last month one of the many topics discussed on Stephen's message boards was the Seaside Home and who the likeliest witness would be. The possible witnesses under discussion are those who possible have seen a glimpse of JtR before the murder of one of the canonical victims.
But as I was rethinking on the attack on Ada it ocurred to me that maybe the witness could have been someone who was attacked him/herself by someone matching the general description of JtR,
but had survived. Altough none of these known attacks are proven to be done by JtR, these persons maybe still could have been of useful information as a starter lead. If such a victim could ID her attacker, they could not really use it in court itself since the attack itself is questionable, but other later on searched
for data of the suspect could well have checked out with the murders.
Greetings,
Jill" |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Tuesday, 29 August 2000 - 08:03 am | | Answer from Judy on August 24 2000 in whitechapel88
"Hi Jill and all,
Actually, since most serial killers practice their
art before moving on to the good stuff, it's very
likely he did attack others before he got going
full steam. Your idea is probably valid, but how
on earth could we tie an unrelated knife attack
from a month, or a year, or even two years,
before?
Judy" |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Tuesday, 29 August 2000 - 08:08 am | | My answer back to Judy on August 25 2000, in whitechapel88
"Hi Judy, all,
You are absolutely right at first that 'we' do not have proof to tie an attack to JtR. But maybe the police then had a hunch and used them as a possible id-witness. I'm pointing to another probable road than that of Cadoche or Lawende.
Can this possibility be included when trying to name the witness if we trace the wordings used? If so, is it a valuable path for research: either to exclude such a possibility after all and back on the trail of Lawende or include it for sure? " |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Tuesday, 29 August 2000 - 08:11 am | | Post from Chris George on August 27 2000, in whitechapel88
"Hi, Jill:
I see no reason to believe the witness ID had anything to do with the Ada Wilson case rather than one of the canonical murders. If the witness had been from this earlier case, we might think that Anderson would have had reason to remark upon that fact, but he didn't, and nor was there any attempt on the part of the police to include the Wilson case with the recognized Ripper killings.
Chris" |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Tuesday, 29 August 2000 - 08:17 am | | Post from me on August 27 2000, in whitechapel88
"Hi Chris, All,
I have mentioned Ada Wilson only as an example of situations that can maybe produce a valuable witness. As to your reason for objection to a witness related to a survived attack in stead of one of the murders: I think it is a valid objection for the venue I propose that with the mentioning of the witness ID, there is not a hint that the witness is one of a failed attack.
But then I can say the same about either Lawende or Cadoche. The circumstances that produced a witness are left in the dark. As far as I comprehend the discussion between pro-Lawende or pro-Cadoche or pro-PC, the choice is based on our own logic, that only thinks about witnesses related to the Canonical victims. While I am of the opinion that this is not necessary.
Many occasions can produce a witness and one of these are failed attacks, before, during or even after the cannonical series. After all the witness is used two years after the MJK murder. Maybe this broadening of perspective won't help us any further than that of strengthening the conviction that it WAS a witness related to the canonical murders, such as Lawende. Still, then we at least have some basis for this conviction and to close the doors on other possibilities instead of a restricted approach beforehand.
For my part your objections are still not enough to close the doors I have proposed. :-)
Many lovely greetings,
Jill |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Tuesday, 29 August 2000 - 08:21 am | | Extract from post by Chris George on August 28 2000, in whitechapel88 in other post thread
"Hi, Jill et al:
Fair enough re the Ada Wilson or any other case maybe having produced the witness at the Seaside Home. I agree that we should not close off our options.
..." |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Tuesday, 29 August 2000 - 08:29 am | | Post from me on August 28 2000, in whitechapel88
"Hi Chris, all,
I think I have come up with an objection myself:
There are only limited hints of who the witness was. But one that stands out is the fact that the witness was jewish. We know this because the witness refused to give a positive identification for the court, because the suspect was also of jewish origin.
The women that survived a knife attack, like Ada Wilson, or a supposed attack, were not jewish.
Does anyone know a statistic of jewish prostitutes in those days? I'm inclined to think there were few, but then that's a biassed opinion, and not measured with facts.
From the few hintings at the witness I also must admit, that I get a definite feeling that it was a man. "
That was the last so far. And please excuse me both, Chris and Judy, for copying your content. It is not intended with malice, only for archives' sake.
Greetings,
Jill |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Tuesday, 29 August 2000 - 01:45 pm | | Hi all,
Apparently the door is wide open after I received a copy of an article about the Wilson attack, that Stephen had put on the site a few days before our drama. I had not seen it before because I was on holiday then and without any link to cyberland. Thank you very much Viper for sending me this.
Extract from the article regarding the attack on Ada Wilson in the Eastern Post & City Chronicle of
Saturday, March 31, 1888.:
"...
Rose Bierman, a young Jewess, lodging at 9, Maidman Street, made the following statement on Wednesday afternoon:- “Ada Wilson, the injured woman, is the occupier of the house, but at the time of the outrage she was under notice to quit. I knew Mrs. Wilson as a married woman, although I have never seen her husband. Last evening she came into the house accompanied by a male companion, but whether he was her husband or not I could not say. She has often had visitors to see her, but I have rarely seen them myself, as Mrs. Wilson lives in the front room, her bedroom being just at the back, adjoining the parlour. My mother and I occupy two rooms upstairs. Well, I don’t know who the young man was, but about midnight I heard the most terrible screams one can imagine. Running downstairs I saw Mrs. Wilson, partially dressed, wringing her hands and crying, ‘Stop that man for cutting my throat! He has stabbed me!’ She then fell fainting in the passage. I saw all that as I was coming downstairs, but as soon as I commenced to descend I noticed a young fair man rush to the front door and let himself out. He did not seem somehow to unfasten the catch as if he had been accustomed to do so before. He had a light coat on, I believe. I don’t know what kind of wound Mrs. Wilson has received, but it must have been deep, I should say, from the quantity of blood in the passage. I do not know what I shall do myself. I am now ‘keeping the feast,’ and how can I do so with what has occurred here? I am now going to remove to other lodgings.” "
And here we have the open door: Rose Bierman who has seen the attacker of Ada Wilson run away and fairly can describe him, IS jewish. She is not a man as I would have supposed on the hintings of the Seaside witness. Notice also at the ending of her statement, how shocked and afraid she is. As afraid as the Seaside witness?
Greetings,
Jill
PS. I can't thank you enough Viper. It gave me jolt reading this. |
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