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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through 03 February 2003
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects:
Contemporary Suspects [ 1888 - 1910 ]:
Druitt, Montague John:
Archive through 03 February 2003
Author: Chris Phillips
Tuesday, 28 January 2003 - 02:02 pm |        | These are the ones I've seen reprinted:
(1) Acton, Chiswick and Turnham Green Gazette, 5 January 1889 [printed by Howells and Skinner, and by Evans and Skinner]
(2) County of Middlesex Independent, 2 [report of body being found] and 5 [inquest] January 1889 [both printed by Begg]
(3) Dorset County Chronicle and Somersetshire Gazette, 10 January 1889 [printed by Evans and Skinner, and on this site as "Dorset Chronicle"]
(4) Richmond and Twickenham Times, 5 January 1889 [printed by Begg, and by Evans and Skinner]
(5) Southern Guardian, ? January 1889 [Extract dated 5 January printed by Begg; fuller version making clear it is partly quoting the Echo, and including list of those present at funeral, printed by Evans and Skinner, but misdated 1 January]
(6) Thames Valley Times, 2 January 1889 [report of body being found, printed by Evans and Skinner]
(7) West London Observer, 5 January 1889 [printed by Begg]
I haven't seen the report from the "Echo", but it is quoted by the Southern Guardian. |
Author: Chris Phillips
Wednesday, 29 January 2003 - 06:01 pm | | Here are the entries relating to MJD and his mother from the probate index for 1891:
DRUITT Ann.
Personal estate £2,419 8s. 8d.
14 July. Administration of the Personal Estate of Ann Druitt late of Wimborne Minster in the County of Dorset Widow who died 15 December 1890 at Chiswick in the County of Middlesex was granted at the Principal Registry to William Harvey Druitt of Bournemouth in the County of Southampton Gentleman the Son and one of the Next of Kin.
DRUITT Montague John.
Personal estate £2,600 2s.
24 July. Administration of the Personal Estate of Montague John Druitt late of 9 King's-Bench-Walk Temple in the City of London Barrister-at-Law a Bachelor who was last seen alive on 3 December 1888 and was found drowned in the River Thames at Chiswick in the County of Middlesex on 31 December 1888 was granted at the Principal Registry to William Harvey Druitt of Bournemouth in the County of Southampton Gentleman the Brother.
No surprises; I have seen the statement about "last seen alive on 3 December" elsewhere. Does anyone know whether this is the source of that? Or is it, perhaps, also stated on his death certificate? |
Author: chris scott
Thursday, 30 January 2003 - 12:59 pm | | Hi all
One thing that intrigues me is the all important suicide note.
Firstly, where was this found? The account in the Acton, Chiswick and Turnham Green Gazette says that William Druitt "had deceased's things search where he resided." Are we to take this to mean a room he had at Blackheath in the school or his chambers at King's bench walk?
Secondly who was this letter addressed to?
The Acton Gazette says William "found a paper addressed to him." From the context this can only mean Montague addressed it to his brother. Howver, the Southern Guardian says "the deceased had left a letter addressed to Mr Valentine." And the Dorset County Chronicle repeats this, but in their account, the full wording is "The deceased had left a letter addressed to Mr Valentine of the school in which he alluded to suicide. A paper had been found upon which the deceased had written: Since Friday I have felt as if I was going to be like mother."
The wording of this last passage is intriguing in that it strongly suggests that there were TWO communications, a letter to Valentine and a note to William which was found among Montague's effects but whether at the school or his chambers is impossible to tell.
Another phrase in these accounts interests me. The Southern Guardian and the Dorset Chronicle bothstate that that Montague was "a barrister at law but had lately been an assistant at a school in Blackheath." In both accounts this statement is credited to William Druitt but we know from the 1881 census that Montague was already teaching at Valentine's school then, i.e. nearly eight years before. Hardly "lately"! We can only surmise if William genuinely did not know, which seems unlikely, or whether he did not wish to reveal that his brother had been following for at least 8 years a profession that he may have deemed to be eblow one of his brother's background.
One last thing, these accounts I read in the Ultimate Sourcebook but the Southern Guardian account is dated in the book as Saturday Januray 1st 1889. I assume this is meant to be Janurary 12th. Sorry to nitpick Stewart!!! It is a truly excellent book
Regards to all
Chris S |
Author: Chris Phillips
Thursday, 30 January 2003 - 03:04 pm | | As John Ruffels has been having ISP problems and has been unable to connect, he has asked me to post his answer to his own question:
THAMES VALLEY TIMES 2 Jan,1889;
DORSET CHRONICLE,10 Jan,1889;
ACTON,CHISWICK & TURNHAM GREEN GAZETTE, 5 Jan.,1889;
THE WIMBORNE GUARDIAN,5 Jan.,1889;
THE ECHO(London)3 Jan.,1889;
COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX INDEPENDENT 5 Jan.,1889;
RICHMOND & TWICKENHAM TIMES, 5 Jan., 1889
I notice this is slightly different from my list - I'm not sure whether the information is significantly different. |
Author: Simon Owen
Thursday, 30 January 2003 - 11:27 pm | | The Bristol Times and Mirror article is fascinating - there were obviously rumours linking Montague to the Ripper very quickly !
It also might explain how Montague became thought of as a doctor ; either someone assumed because the Ripper was the son of a surgeon , he was also a surgeon , or things became twisted so that the Ripper was thought to be the surgeon , rather than his father.
I would assume that if William did find a suicide note , that it was at Montague's chambers at Kings Bench Walk ; it would seem most likely as to search his school lodgings would surely be the prerogative of Mr Valentine. Reading the extracts they do strongly suggest that Druitt wrote a note to his brother and some sort of letter to Valentine as well , maybe a resignation letter ? Again these were most probably at his Kings Bench Walk address , as after Druitt went missing the school would surely have checked his room for clues to his disappearance.
The question is - did Druitt intend to post or hand this letter to Valentine , but died before he was able to ? If so , this would suggest murder rather than suicide. It would also seem odd to write two suicide notes , surely a general one would have sufficed !
I wonder if it is possible to check out the correspondence of William Druitt , maybe some of it is still in existence ? |
Author: Simon Owen
Thursday, 30 January 2003 - 11:32 pm | | | As to Montague's job as a schoolmaster , it would be perhaps unwise to assume that , although he was working at Blackheath in 1881 , that he worked there constantly for the next 8 years. It may be that he returned intermittantly to work at the school to supplement his income fitting his work as a teacher around his work as a special-pleader. |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Friday, 31 January 2003 - 04:00 am | | Well done Chris & Chris & Simon.Yes Chris P., it looks as though several of the press reports of MJDs demise repeat virtually the same information.Only one or two reveal vital extra details.But it would be good if other newspaper
accounts of the Inquest were discovered.For general information, Colindale Newspaper Library did a search for me(back in '77!!)and they listed nil returns for:COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX CHRONICLE,BOROUGH OF LEWISHAM HERALD,BOROUGH OF LEWISHAM GAZETTE,RICHMOND HERALD,BOURNEMOUTH OBSERVER,CHRISTCHURCH TIMES.The SOUTHERN GUARDIAN, published in Wimborne, carried the exact extract issued in the BOURNEMOUTH GUARDIAN.
The following London newspapers were searched without success:EVENING NEWS,THE STAR, DAILY NEWS,THE PEOPLE,NEWS OF THE WORLD and THE TIMES.
This was not an exhaustive list and lack of staff prevented complete coverage.
My thanks to Chris Phillips for relaying the results of my question above.ISP problems beset us all.Mine are SQL SLAMMER problems...
Simon Owen wonders aloud where William Harvey Druitt's papers are & have they been checked?In 1975 I received a reply to exactly that inquiry from Kenneth Druitt Henderson a descendant of Archdeacon Thomas Druitt in Australia (Montague Druitt's uncle).He relayed a
response from a retired lady medico living in Devon (related to Monty's brother Arthur):"William Harvey Druitt was my godfather and eldest uncle.
He died somewhere about 1910 and his surviving partner died some years ago.The Trust was wound up when my aunt,Ethel, died in 1952, so I have no means of knowing whether there were any family papers kept in the office".
Incidentally, in this same letter, Mr Henderson
doubted MJD was The Ripper:"Granted that M. committed suicide, his brilliant early career having faded, he was still enjoying his cricket,
and was Hon.Secretary of the Blackheath Cricket, Tennis & Football Club.A friend of mine ,who also played football for Blackheath, committed suicide at the age of 25, having been told that he had got diabetes. This doesn't raise the presumption of his being a homicidal maniac". |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Friday, 31 January 2003 - 06:15 pm | | Gentlemen--What do you make of this? I see no mention of it in Sugden, Farson, Cullen, A-Z, etc., but didn't our Monty return to Oxford?
He was at Blackheath in 1881, but this must have been an on again, off again sort of arrangement.
From the Alumni Oxonienses, 1715-1886:
Druitt, Montague John, 2S. William, of Wimborne Minster, Dorset, gent. NEW COLL., matric. 13 Oct., 1876, aged 19; scholar 1876, B.A. 1880, M.A. 1884, bar.-at-law, Inner Temple, 1885.
So he was back up in Oxford 1883-1884 abouts, no? RP |
Author: Simon Owen
Friday, 31 January 2003 - 09:07 pm | | Yes , I should say thats correct RJP. It looks like Montague passed his BA in 1880 , his MA in 1884 and gained entrance to the Inner Temple ( as a barrister ? ) in 1885 - thus he would have been at Oxford in 1883 and 1884.
Its very likely his teaching post at Blackheath was an on-off arrangement. |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Friday, 31 January 2003 - 11:50 pm | | Yes. I wondered about MJDs periods as Asst Master
at Blackheath.But I do not think the Oxford record means he suspended his teaching.I understood the awarding of the M.A. degree was more dependent on payment of a fee (usually the following year!).Am I correct here?
Further on this, I had been wondering who MJDs "friends" were (as mentioned by Macnaghten).
For instance, FREDERICK HENRY LACEY in the Cambridge Allumni book is recorded as:"Son of Reverend George Frederick Lacey (deceased).Born Drogheda, Ireland. educated at St Pauls School.
Matriculated Michaelmas Term, 1870.Admitted pensioner aged 19 at Jesus College, Cambridge.
Admitted October 1, 1870.B.A. 1874, M.A. 1878.
Tutor in a Private School.Died 9th April 1890".
Now this F.H.Lacey, nominated Druitt for the Blackheath Hockey Club,(1881), and was present when Druitt's role as Secretary of the club was withdrawn because he had "gone abroad"....(1888).
Interestingly, Lacey was not listed at Valentine's school in the 1881 Census.Elsewhere, I think, I've noted Lacey taught at Valentine's from 1875 to 1885.Did not note the reference.
Perhaps Lacey's descendants recall some mention of M. J. DRUITT...
By the way,it looks as if nine press reports of Druitt's demise have been located.On top of my seven were:THE WEST LONDON OBSERVER, 5th Jan., 1889; and THE SOUTHERN GUARDIAN, (5?) JAN., 1889,
a sibling of the WIMBORNE GUARDIAN.(Paul Begg mentioned these, though his Appendix"C" was missing from my 1989 paperback edition).
Finally, I have seen three photos of Montague Druitt: (1) The one in Farson's book (2) The one in Howells & Skinners book and (3)The one in Irving Rosenwater's CRICKETER article.In none of these is Druitt looking at the camera.Others in (3) are. Does this indicate a lack of self esteem
or something else? |
Author: Chris Phillips
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 05:28 am | | | Yes, John is correct that at Oxford and Cambridge the M.A. is just a paper qualification that follows automatically (unless that's been abolished by now). Montague needn't even have gone back to attend the ceremony in 1884. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 05:07 pm | | Hi All,
"Since Friday I have felt as if I was going to be like mother". Evidence of a schizophrenic gene?
Why "Friday"? Is this a schizophrenic gene that mutates within the space of a week? Odd.
Rosey & Rosey :-) |
Author: chris scott
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 05:15 pm | | I have made an interesting find that I havent seen elsewhere - a news paper article dated 23 May 1886 showing thet MJD was deinitely practising legally at that time. It is ana ccount of a case - Mildon v Binstead - in which he represented the plaintiff. Im including a scan of the beginning of the article - if you'd like the full account posted let me know
Chris S |
Author: Chris Phillips
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 05:36 pm | | Chris S
Thanks for that. I don't think I've seen that mentioned.
I think anything about MJD's history in the couple of years before the murders is potentially relevant, in view of G.R. Sims's statement (possibly originating with Macnaghten) that the "drowned doctor" suspect had previously been in an asylum, but had been free for "a whole year at least".
If it's not too long to post, the full account would be interesting (at least, the headline claims it would be amusing!). |
Author: chris scott
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 05:57 pm | | Hi Chris
Glad it was of interest
I'll type up the full article (on these old papers OCR is almost useless!) but it is pretty long so it may be a few days
Regards
Chris S |
Author: Simon Owen
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 06:01 pm | | Some miscellaneous points :
1) The A-Z does note in its entry on Druitt that there was a letter for Mr Valentine ' alluding to suicide ' and a seperate paper for William Druitt ( the ' Since Friday... ' etc ). Thus it does seem that Druitt left two documents for posterity. If the letter to George Valentine was an explanation of his conduct ( Druitt was reportedly dismissed on 30th November from the school ), we know not of its contents.
2) The A-Z mentions that Druitt made a successful defence of insanity in the case Regina vs Power September 1888 , this was discovered by Adrian Morris.
3) The date of December 3rd 1888 for the last sighting of Druitt seems to come from the recollection of William that he learned Montague had not been seen in his chambers for about a week preceding 11th December 1888. Since the half-return ticket Hammersmith to Charing Cross is dated 1st December , that is the day that Montague most probably committed suicide however.
So many mysteries still remain about Druitt ! Why was he Macnaughton's favourite suspect ? |
Author: Simon Owen
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 06:35 pm | | To look at a particular mystery in more detail , here is my chronology of Druitt's last movements reprinted from my post of 14th May 2001 :
--------------------------------------------------
Friday 30th Nov 1888 - Druitt dismissed from his post at Blackheath school
Saturday 1st Dec 1888 - Druitt buys a return ticket from Charing Cross to Hammersmith
Monday 3rd Dec 1888 - probable last possible date that Druitt was seen alive on ( see below )
Tuesday 11th Dec 1888 - William Druitt hears from a friend that Montague has not been seen in his chambers for ' more than a week '
Sunday 30th December 1888 - William Druitt discovers Montague has been dismissed from his job , and has his chambers searched
Monday 31st December 1888 - Druitt's body is dragged from the Thames near Thorneycroft's Torpedo Works , Chiswick
Wednesday 2nd January 1889 - Dr Diplock conducts the inquest at the Lamb Tap inn
--------------------------------------------------
The suicide note is the tricky problem : the use of ' Since Friday... ' ( we don't know the exact text of the note , but I think we can assume these words were used since they were mentioned at the inquest ) suggests that the suicide note was written on 3rd December , the last day Druitt was apparently sighted. If the note had been written on the 1st of December surely it would have said ' Since yesterday... ' , the wording implies a distance of time between the writing of the note and the Friday.
The 30th November 1888 fell on a Friday and if Druitt was dismissed on that day , the cheques are almost certainly pay cheques written to him by George Valentine. These cheques could not be banked until the Monday 3rd December , but it seems odd that Druitt carried them around with him as they were for large sums of money. He spent time writing a letter to Valentine in his chambers , why did he not leave them there ?
The PROBLEM is the half-return ticket though , dated Saturday December 1st : Hammersmith to Charing Cross. For some unknown reason , Druitt travelled to Hammersmith on the Saturday and it seems he did not return , his body was found in nearby Chiswick a month later. He didn't use his return train ticket and he didn't throw it away if he returned home by other means ( eg Hansom cab ). There was no train ticket dated 3rd December on his person.
Here is the crux of the matter :
* The suicide note and his last reported appearance at his chambers suggests that Druitt committed suicide on December 3rd.
* The rail ticket suggests Druitt committed suicide on December 1st.
I am unable to resolve this dichotomy. Except in an almost fantastical way.
I previously noted here that no keys to the chambers at Kings Bench Walk were found on Druitt's body. My suggestion is this. That Druitt was murdered on either the 1st or 2nd December 1888 and his murderer kept his keys , the murderer then entered Druitt's chambers on the 3rd of December and wrote the suicide note for William - thus the murderer faked Montague's suicide. If residents of King's Bench Walk believed it was Montague in his rooms on the 3rd , this would explain why he was thought to be still alive on that day. This murder was not for reasons of money ( obviously , Druitt still had his cash with him ) and the murderer would have known about Druitt's personal circumstances.
I believe however that when the suicide note was forged , the murderer made a mistake and put ' Since Friday... ' forgetting that if Druitt had written the note on the Saturday 1st December , he would have put ' Since yesterday... '.
A far-fetched solution maybe , but it does help explain this problem over the dates !  |
Author: Simon Owen
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 06:42 pm | | Another question : why did Druitt go to Hammersmith or Chiswick to commit suicide ? He could have just as easily thrown himself into the Thames at London Bridge or the Embankment !
Surely it is most likely that Druitt went to Chiswick to meet someone , maybe as a cry for help. Maybe this failed and he threw himself into the Thames there. Could it be that he tried to have himself committed to the Manor House asylum in Chiswick , was told that he could not be admitted without a doctor's certification and then fell into despair ( and then into the river ) ? |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 09:07 pm | | I wish I had something of more value to talk
about, but I was playing around with www.google.
com tonight, and looking over my Druitt material,
I decided to look up the names of subsidiary
characters connected to Montague, the Valentine
school, and the suicide. I put in the name
of Dr. Diplock, the coroner.
Believe it or not (and there is no reason to
really not believe it or be surprised), Monty's
death was not the only death that Dr. Diplock
handled that year of 1888 that was determined to
be a suicide. In June 1888 an elderly man named
Thomas Kearley, who was a painter and decorator
from Uxbridge, was found shot to death on the
wooden step of his workshop, with a six chambered
gun nearby.
Dr. Diplock held the inquest at the Keep Within
Compass Public House at Uxbridge. Witnesses
included deceased's daughter Fanny and P.C. Kirkham, as well as deceased's son John. Although
Fanny mentioned that somebody was talking to him
in the shop, background details showed that
deceased had a history of depression (in 1878
he had attempted suicide by poison - as a result
he was in an asylum for a short time), and that
deceased was (in June 1888) worried about the
state of his business. The jury returned a
verdict of suicide while of unsound mind.
For a more detailed account (from which this is
cribbed) look at the Kearley family geneological
website - http://www.arkearley.freeserve.co.uk/
other/satux.htm
Jeff |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 10:02 pm | | Well done Chris Scott, nice discovery regarding MJD and the 1886 Breach of Promise Case.(From 1883
to May 1886, what a long wait for resolution..).
Secondly, very good reasoning, Simon Owen.I agree,
I think MJD was in Chiswick to seek help for his depression.After all, he seemed to be busy with sport, school and legal briefs,so the reason for his suicidal mood HAD to be dismissal from the school at 9 Eliot Place Blachheath.(the note to Headmaster Valentine alluded to suicide).
And I notice, in the RICHMOND & TWICKENHAM TIMES
account of his Inquest,(presumeably local P.C.Moulson)said MJD was "a stranger to the district".
This was why I sought as many press accounts of the Inquest proceedings as possible.A colleague of mine, some years ago ,discovered some of his best JTR stories in regional newspapers not close to London .
Thinking of the MJD Inquest, where exactly was the mortuary at Chiswick, to which MJDs remains would have been taken?
Dr Diplock was also M.O. at Lock Hospital.Where was that?
Finally, sometime back, someone on this site asked how William Druitt would have identified a body which had been submersed in the Thames for a month.Just as a brother would immediately spot a forged suicide note,William Harvey Druitt would have known of birth-marks, hammer toes or distinguishing moles and scars on his deceased brother's corpse. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 11:07 pm | | Dear Simon,
Obviously, MJD's corpse found in the dock of the Thorneycroft iron foundry...not strictly 'in' the Thames.
Stones in pockets indicate (a)he needed help in drowning himself, (b) he did not want his body to be recovered, (c) both (a) and (b), or (d) some bizarre water-fetish that involves a drowned corpse with your name on it in BIG LETTERS.
Ahoy!
Rosey & Rosey & Rosey :-) |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 11:12 pm | | PS.
So, why do you think Sir Robert never mentioned
MJD as a suspect? Much better story than the crazy Jew theory...don't you think?
Rosey :-) |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 12:07 am | | In addition to the above list of news articles, Dan Farson mentioned somewhere that Druitt's demise appeared in the Kentish Mercury.
Chris S--Good work. Fascinating, really. With this, and the other legal cases discovered in the past few years, I think the old myth that Druitt was a 'failed barrister' has now been completely uprooted. And Chris P & John. Thanks for the insight; Oxford a diploma mill? That explains what otherwise made no sense.
Jeff--Interesting as always.
Rosey, Simon--The Cricket Club knew Druitt was a goner by 21st December, when they tossed him out as Secretary. Since William went looking MJ up after December 11th, it all suggests to me that Blackheath knew of the notes before the body turned up at Thorneycroft's.
What I can never figure is the date 'Dec 4th' on the Tombstone. Druitt must have been seen alive on the 3rd? Which makes the return ticket damned interesting, since it's hard to write a Blackheath suicide note while floundering in Hammersmith. Bloody newspapers. |
Author: chris scott
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 05:11 am | | Jeff
Thanks for the link to the Diplock inquest - very useful
Chris S |
Author: Chris Phillips
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 05:50 am | | Simon
There are certainly some puzzling aspects to the circumstances of Druitt's death (although I'm not convinced their resolution would tell us whether he was the Ripper or not).
I don't have a solution, but here are one or two thoughts.
The fullest report, in the Acton, Chiswick and Turnham Green Gazette, says "Witness had deceased's things searched where he resided, and found a paper addressed to him", and the Coroner read this paper. A briefer report, in the Southern Guardian, says he had left a letter addressed to Mr Valentine, "in which he alluded to suicide". If there were two separate letters, it's odd that the first report doesn't mention the one to Valentine, and that the second report doesn't mention the one to Druitt's brother. I think I'm right in saying that none of the reports of the inquest mentions more than one letter.
So, given that "where he resided" is mostly agreed to be the school, not his chambers, it seems more likely to me that the Southern Guardian has mistaken the letter left at the school but addressed to Druitt's brother, for one addressed to the headmaster.
One other detail, in your chronology you mention that Druitt's brother made his visit to the school on 30 December. I think this comes from the ambiguous "That was on the 30th of December" in the Acton, Chiswick and Turnham Green Gazette report. Sugden (I think) argues that this refers to Druitt's dismissal, and is an error for 30th November, rather than referring to the visit by Druitt's brother (which would imply he had waited for nearly 3 weeks after being told Druitt was missing).
On the central puzzle, I wonder if we should actually give more weight to 3rd/4th December as the estimated date of Druitt's death. This has the support of his gravestone and the grant of administration, whereas the 1st December date is purely a deduction by modern Ripperologists from the date, 1 December, given on the railway ticket.
There's no indication that the Coroner or reporters attached any particular importance to the ticket - it just occurs in the evidence of PC Moulson as part of a list of the items found on the corpse. It seems equally possible to me that Druitt's brother testified something like "he had not been seen in chambers since the previous Monday or Tuesday" and that the court concluded Monday 3rd as the date he was last seen alive, but that this went unreported.
That would make more sense of the suicide note, but would leave us with the problem of the second half of the return ticket. But that could perhaps be explained by his going out to Hammersmith on the Saturday and taking a cab back, then buying a single ticket when he went out a second time to kill himself. Or perhaps the date on the ticket was just not very legible after nearly a month in the water, and the date was misread.
I don't think the absence of keys is a big problem, if he didn't live in chambers. (Incidentally, isn't the fact that the ticket went from Charing Cross yet another indication of this? King's Bench is half way between Temple and
Blackfriars stations, but the train from Blackheath went to Charing Cross.) And it may be that he wasn't in the habit of locking up his rooms at the school. |
Author: Chris Phillips
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 09:41 am | | Chris
Thanks for that. No hurry, of course.
You are certainly turning up a lot of interesting material from newspapers. I'm curious to know whether you're using indexes, or doing it all by brute force. (Don't feel you have to give away any "trade secrets", though!) |
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 10:52 am | | Ah yes , it is true that Montague could have bought a single ticket on the Monday - its still odd he would go to Chiswick to commit suicide however.
Another thing against the Monday being the date of his death is the fact that he did not bank his cheques from the school , although he might not have been in the frame of mind to bother with this. He did manage to write a letter to Mr Valentine though. If Druitt had died on the 1st then he would not have been able to bank his cheques of course , it being a weekend.
My main argument with the note being discovered at the school is the fact that it would have been discovered very soon after Druitt's disappearance and it is likely that the school would have informed his relatives of the matter: rather , it is that he is not seen at his chambers for a week which alerts William to the possibility that there is some problem concerning his brother.
I don't attatch too much importance to the stones in the pockets , didn't Virginia Woolf kill herself in the same way ? Suicide by drowning was a popular method of the period. |
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 11:12 am | | RJ , it was not until the 31st of December 1888 that Druitt was removed from his position as secretary of the Morden Cricket Club , because he was ' having gone abroad ' ( The Ripper Legacy , p155 ).
He was in attendance on 19th November when he recommended renting an acre of land behind the Grandstand , thus I presume he was absent from the club meetings for 6 weeks before being removed ( the Cricket Club meeting every Monday to discuss business ). He had been the secretary of the club since 1884 and the ( first ) honorary treasurer/secretary since 1885. |
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 11:24 am | | Going back to the theory that Druitt was murdered , my suggestion is the following :
1)SUPPOSITION : That Druitt was on the verge of ' sexual insanity ' meant he was homosexual.
2)SUPPOSITION : That Druitt was a regular at the homosexual brothel in Cleveland Street , along with Clarence.
3)SUPPOSITION : That Druitt was murdered to prevent him revealing information about the Cleveland Street brothel , it was feared that in his difficult mental state he would reveal information about Clarence.
4)SUPPOSITION : That Walter Sickert had a studio in the vicinity of Cleveland Street and this is where he came across some version of the ' Lodger ' story which named Druitt as the Ripper. |
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 11:35 am | | Another possibility as to why Druitt was thought to be a doctor in his early 40s is that he was confused with Michael Ostrog.
Sir Basil Thompson says in ' The Story of Scotland Yard ' (1935) :
"The belief of the CID officers of the time was that they [the murders] were the work of an insane Russian doctor and that this man escaped arrest by committing suicide at the end of 1888."
I think its becoming easier to see how Druitt might have been thought of as a doctor , whether its because as the son of a surgeon he was mistaken for a surgeon , or whether the backgrounds of Ostrog and Druitt got confused in people's memories over the years. There certainly isn't any doubt that it is Druitt who is Macnaughton's suspect I feel. |
Author: Chris Phillips
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 03:11 pm | | Simon
(1)SUPPOSITION : That Druitt was on the verge of ' sexual insanity ' meant he was homosexual.
Really that is the big question. If it does indicate homosexuality, and is well founded, I think most people now agree it would make MJD a very unlikely Ripper.
But until somebody can provide a contemporary example of the phrase being used to mean that, I shall remain very sceptical that Macnaghten was indicating that MJD was homosexual. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 08:52 pm | | Dear Simon,
Ever heard of a man who was found hung at Blackfriars Bridge with bricks in his pockets...
Roberto Calvi?
A body in tidal water would invariably be stripped
of clothing after a month. For a body to emerge fully dressed but unrecognisable, it would need to be in water that is relatively static during that period of time.
Your murder scenario must explain the "forgery"
of the suicide notes which were in the hands of both police (comparative analysis) and brother of
MJD.
A barrister would be familiar with the processes
at work in a drowning, and suicides.
Rosey :-) |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 09:12 pm | | Hi Chris and R.J.
Glad I was of some interest on Diplock.
On the subject of Monty Druitt I have thoughts
but I really don't think any of them lead to
Whitechapel. To me he is the only leading suspect
who has enough mysteries of his own (particularly
his demise) without insiting a burning curiosity
about whether he was the Ripper or not.
For example, the term of "sexually insane" is
very curious to me. Most of us (including me
on occasion) think that meant Monty was gay.
But it might mean that he was overly heterosexual,
a man who just couldn't stop chasing the ladies.
It might also mean that he was into bestiality,
or flagellation, or some other fetish or habit.
Whatever it is, it had become to noticeable by
December 1888.
I think the reason we are inclined to think of
Monty being gay is that he is a teacher in a
school. Actually this would suggest pedophilia,
but it suggests a liking for males. And since we
are within a year of the Cleveland Street scandal
(and it's still unproven link to the Duke of
Clarence - it is linked to Lord Arthur Somerset
and the Earl of Euston)we are willing to think
that Monty is a member. May I point out that
if the likes of Somerset and Euston are involved
at Cleveland Street, then the place sounds a little pricey to me for a man whose estate in 1888
is apprised as slightly over 2,600 pounds. I
could imagine him as someone's guest there once
or twice, but not a regular member.
The matter of the return ticket is intriguing, but
I would say it is also open to all kinds of answers, including habit (Monty may have just
bought a round-trip ticket because he always did).
Oddly enough, the lack of a return ticket has
sometimes played a role in settling a murder
mystery. When Henri Landru was on trial for his
wife murders in 1921, his little account book
listed every detail of his expenditures with his
eleven victims. It was noted that each time he
bought one round trip ticket and one one-way
ticket, a point he tried to ignore as though it
would go away.
Then there is the curious case of the drowning,
which has preoccupied me for years.
I think that the death of the Ripper by drowning
has become part of the legend. It popped up in
one of the two versions of the story, THE LODGER,
by Mrs. Belloc Lowndes, and in the 1943 version of
the story as a film with Laird Cregar. The idea
that the Ripper did not hang but drowned may be
in line with the old superstition that you know
you are safe at sea if the sailors look like they
are destined to hang (i.e., they won't die by
drowning). Shakespeare makes a joke of it, I
believe in the opening of THE TEMPEST.
For some years I studied suicide lists in
Haydn's Dictionary of Dates. Actually, aside
from Monty's death (which is not in Haydn's Dictionary) the only one by drowning that is
listed in the 1880s was that of "Mad" King Ludwig
II of Bavaria, who drowned his doctor (we think)
and then himself (again, we think) in 1886. As
you can see there is some question about Ludwig's
death. He may have killed his doctor, and died
of exertions in trying to escape in the lake he
was in, or he may have been murdered with the
doctor by agents of a political enemy (his foes
in Munich, or even Bismarck, whom he opposed - if
it is Bismarck it ties in nicely with Monty, who
once debated on the issue that Bismarck was a
threat to the world).
However, like so much with studying Monty Druitt
this is so much in the realm of supposition.
We have nothing to link him with Ludwig II of
Bavaria, and I do not intend to raise a flag here,
similar to the Cleveland Street flag.
There is one other mysterious drowning death that
I have wished somebody would look into regarding
Monty and his demise. Occasionally, over the
last few years, I have mentioned it privately.
Have any of you, reading this, heard of a now
obscure short story writer of great promise named
Hubert M. Crackenthorpe?
He is barely recalled as the founder of the school
of naturalism in English literature in the late
1880s, to his death in 1896. In his day, he
was as important a figure to THE YELLOW BOOK as
Wilde or Beardsley. But his career was truncated
by his sudden death in November 1896 in Paris.
His brother Darryl had to identify his body, found
in the Seine, a month later. It was surmised that
he had committed suicide due to his marriage
floundering. Recent research into his demise
suggests that he was responsible for the collapse
of the marriage by his own affair with a sister
of Richard La Galliene. The same research also
puts out that Hubert may have simply fallen into
the Seine (which, due to heavy rains that fall,
overflowed its banks) or may have been thrown in
by muggers. In any event Hubert M. Crackenthorpe
died by drowning, like Monty Druitt eight years
before in another famous river.
So far - coincidence only. Now the minor points
that make me look at this curiously.
1) If you find a photo of Hubert and compare it
to Monty, they look like the former is the cousin
or younger brother of the latter.
2) Very minor point - Hubert's middle name was
MONTAGUE.
3) Originally Hubert Montague Crackenthorpe was
the younger son of Hubert Montague Cookson. The
senior Cookson was a widely respected legal scholar in Great Britain, who would go to the
U.S. in 1895 with the Solicitor General Frank
Lockwood, and Lord Chief Justice Charles Russell
on a goodwill tour meeting leading legal and
judicial figures in America. But his last name
was not Cookson in 1895. A number of years
earlier, the senior Cookson was faced by a simple
dilemma. A relative had died childless, but left
a large landed estate which was entailed to
people with the last name Crackenthorpe. Facing
the prospect of losing about 20,000 or 30,000
pounds a year, unless he changed his name, the
senior Cookson did the sensible thing. He changed
his name. This occurred, by the way, in January
1888.
It is an interesting story - and nothing more.
I have tried to see if there is a link between
the Cookson/Crackenthorpe family and the Druitts,
but so far have found nothing. If there is, it
may not point to Whitechapel, but perhaps it
leads to the Thorneycroft works, or to two remarkably similar ends (eight years apart) in
the Thames and the Seine.
There has been only one book about Hubert
Crackenthorpe that I have found - a twenty year
old study by his grand nephew (who also had to
change his name to inherit that large estate).
The grand nephew was the grandson of Hubert's
older brother Darryl Crackenthorpe, a member of
the British diplomatic corps. Darryl had taken
charge of the details of burying Hubert, and
did his best to cover up the details of the
La Gallienne scandal and how it may have destoyed
Hubert's marriage. The reason given in the
book for this was that Darryl did not want the
causes of the suicide to destroy his promising
diplomatic career. As it was, it did not do so
(Darryl ended his career as British ambassador to
the Central American republics in the 1920s).
But Darryl's grandson overlooked a curious point
about his grandfather's seeking to cover-up the
scandals connected to Hubert's suicide.
Darryl Crackenthorpe was on the verge of marrying
in 1896. His choice was a Spanish-American beauty
named Ina or Ena Sickels. Darryl had met her
in Madrid, where she resided with her mother (and
where Darryl was stationed at the time). Ina
Sickles was a good choice for a wife, and apparently the marriage was a happy one. But if
Darryl was so careful about covering-up scandals
(like those connected to his brother's demise), he
certainly did not demonstrate the same habit when
it came to choosing a wife. You see, Ina Sickles
father was a former American Minister to Spain in
the Grant Administration. He was also a war hero
(from the battles of Chancellorsville and
Gettysburg - the "Peach Orchard", where he lost
a leg), and a former New York City Tammany Hall
politico and U.S. Congressman. His name was
Daniel Sickels. General Sickels was a very
colorful man. He was also quite a bon vivant,
and gallant (he and Ina's mother had not lived
together for twenty years). He was quite corrupt
(as head of the New York War Monuments Commission,
thousands of dollars he was in charge of ended
up disappearing). He was also a one time murder
trial defendant: In 1859 he shot and killed
the District Attorney of Washington, D.C. a few
blocks from the White House, in an open street.
Sickels' victim Philip Barton Keys (son of the
author of the U.S. National Anthem) had been having an affair with the first Mrs. Sickels.
Daniel Sickels won acquittal (he was defended by
Edwin Stanton, later Lincoln's Secretary of War)
because of the "unwritten law" about protecting
one's family life from intruders.
Somehow Darryl's marriage, no matter how true it turned out to be, was more scandal ridden than
background of Hubert's suicide. To be fair, though, it was fifty years old, in comparison to
the death of Hubert a few months before. On the
other hand, if Hubert's death was connected to
something more hideous than his own family problems - something from eight years earlier.
Well that would be a different story.
Anyway, again it is just a bunch of suppositions
and odds and ends. Nothing except a resemblance
between Monty and Hubert, and a shared name, and
the key year of 1888 in both their lives links
them (also the legal world that Monty was partly
in, and that Hubert's father was deeply in). As
for Darryl's choice of marriage partner, it is
odd if he was concerned about keeping the proprieties essential for his career.
Jeff |
Author: Robert Maloney
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 10:42 pm | | Theory: Druitt is a Knights Templar and agent. He does not die but instead goes to Australia under a different name. :-)
Rob |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 06:02 am | | The A To Z of JTR says Diplock was Coroner from 1858.He was very experienced.He knew what a drowned corpse looked like.
The COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX INDEPENDENT records his attendance at another Inquest the same day, at the Duke of York pub. Sixty year-old-lady, natural causes.
So who will tell me where Chiswick mortuary was in 1888? Was it attached to a local hospital? Was it the Lock hospital where Diplock was house surgeon?Who has contacted Diplock's descendants?
Who has searched Chiswick hospital basements for the Inquest papers?
Take nothing for granted.(Except that I'm stuck out here in Australia & can't do those things myself).
More detective-work all round, would be good.
Jeff, what ever you do, don't take any notice of the fact EDWARD HENSLOW BEDFORD was a solicitor at 9 Kings Bench Walk.O.K.? |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 10:59 am | | Dear Robt. Maloney,
Too much Umberto Eco? Nice to hear from you again.
Rosey :-)) |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 06:06 pm | | Ooh yes , Bedford , now thats a coincidence and a half !
As for Templars/Freemasons , well Druitt WAS a widow's son... |
Author: chris scott
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 07:21 pm | | On a new theme re. MJD:
In the 1881 census, there are only two teachers named as teaching at George Valentine's school in Blackheath. As well as MJD there is a listing for Mark Francis James Mann whose details in the census are only given as aged 25 and born in Guernsey. I'm sure he could tell a few stories and answer a few questions for us!
I have done some research on him and have assembled the following details:
Mark Francis James MANN
Co teacher with Montague Druitt at George Valentine's School in Blackheath
Parentage: son of Gother Frederick Mann (Major-General Royal Engineers) and Margaret Macleod Baynes
Born: July 21st 1855 in St. Peter Port, Guernsey
Education: Entered St Johns College Cambridge, Michaelmas Term on February 2nd 1874. Obtained B.A. in 1878.
Profession: Private tutor
Died: January 4th 1925 in Guernsey
I hope this may be of interest
Regards
Chris S |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 09:49 pm | | Alright John, I'll bite. Who was Edward Henslow
Bennett, solicitor at 9 Kings Bench Walk? If I
should know and don't, well being human I can't
(despite rumors to the contrary) know everything.
Helplessly,
Jeff |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 11:33 pm | | Edward Henslowe Bedford was a solicitor who helped indict Ernest Parke , the editor of the North London Press newspaper , and helped cover up the Cleveland Street Scandal in 1889. Parke - a crusading journalist after the truth - was sent down for a years hard labour after mistakenly libelling the Earl of Euston and the whole affair became sub-judice and thus hushed up.
Frequenters of the homosexual brothel at 19 Cleveland Street were Prince Albert Victor , Lord Arthur Somerset ( assistant equerry to the Prince of Wales ) and almost certainly Euston as well. And detective in charge of the investigation was our own Inspector Abberline ! |
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