Author: Len White
Saturday, 18 January 2003 - 01:17 pm |        |
Hi All
I've noticed sadly the lack of John Netley as a suspect,in the Casebook Files,whether working alone, or as an acomplice,(Sir William Gull)I think Johnny is an ideal ripper suspect all on his own, any comments.
Len |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 08:46 am | |
| He could have used his cab as a getaway vehicle. But what evidence do you have that he was involved? How is he tied to the killings besides being alive and in London in 1888? |
Author: chris scott
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 01:19 pm | |
Hi len
As far as I am aware, the only way in which Netley came into the Ripper story was in the Stephen Knight story - the so called "Royal Conspiracy" theory. Whilst being sad to hear of the reacent passing of Jospeh Sickert, I have to agree with the final comment in the A-Z which says:
"It is to be regretted that overall extreme caution is recommended in examining any story emanating from or otherwise associated with Mr Sickert."
If one dismisses the whole, complex theory as put forward by Stephen Knight (and I am not aware of any researcher today who seriously supoorts it in toto)then i don't see any way that Netley can seriously be entertained as a suspect. Of course we know that Netley existed and there may well have been afamily connection between him and Joseph Sickert but beyond that I know of no evidence whatever that links him to the murders.
Regards
Chris Scott |
Author: Dan Norder
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 05:51 am | |
Cabs stuck out like sore thumbs in Whitechapel. If there had been a mad cabbie killer, there would have been sightings of a cab in the area on each of the nights, and these would have been reported as an unusual detail.
Dan
----------------------------------------------------------------
Consider supporting this great site by making a donation |
Author: Chris Phillips
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 07:48 am | |
Dan Norder wrote:
Cabs stuck out like sore thumbs in Whitechapel. If there had been a mad cabbie killer, there would have been sightings of a cab in the area on each of the nights, and these would have been reported as an unusual detail.
Is that really the case, though?
In this message, Ivor Edwards called attention to "a very large Hansom cab stand which was about 130yds in length", conveniently located for most of the murder sites. This stand is shown on the 1873 O.S. map, just east of the junction between Aldgate High St, Commercial St, Commercial Road and Leman Street.
It would be interesting to know just how rare cabs really were around Whitechapel in the early hours of the morning. |
Author: Monty
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 11:39 am | |
Chris,
As rare as they are now.
I guess the question should be what sort of customers these Cabbies took on ?
Also I believe that, at some stage, cabs where being stopped and searched (similar to the White vans being stopped during the Washington snipers reign).
Would you risk a ride after commiting a murder ? It would limit your control on the situation
Just me toying...Monty
 |
Author: Chris Jd
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 12:12 pm | |
On cobblestones, where one could hear the steps of policemen, horse & coach would sound like thunder.
Noone ever heard a coach on the nights in question.
Christian |
Author: Chris Phillips
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 12:34 pm | |
I'd be interested in anything anyone can come up with about cabs being stopped, or cab-drivers being questioned.
I can't help thinking that one or two bits of evidence fit quite well with the Ivor Edwards' Aldgate cab-stand scenario:
(1) The man seen in Church Lane after the Stride killing could very plausibly have been heading for the cab stand, and dodged into the lane to make himself presentable. (Of course, this would assume that he then had second thoughts and headed for Mitre Square instead.)
(2) The route from Mitre Square to Goulston Street doesn't lead directly towards the cab stand, but granted that the killer might initially have headed into the back streets to the north-east, rather than going straight into the main road, it certainly looks like a possible route. |
Author: Jeff Murrish
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 08:37 pm | |
| I agree with Diana. Other than being alive and in London at the time, what ties him into the case? |
Author: Brian Schoeneman
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 12:05 am | |
All,
Dan's point about the cab is based on his reading of People of the Abyss, I think.
When London took a cab into the East End, the cabbie was freaked out, didn't have any idea where to go, wanted him to pay him up front, etc. So it's reasonable to think that cabs weren't an amazingly common sight back then.
But, Paul Begg's book brings up an interesting point about this as well. He mentions that it was a pasttime during that time period for rich people to see for themselves how the other half lived. It was called "slumming", and many of the richer folks on London did it, including Princess Alice, if I recall correctly.
This seems a bit contradictory, I suppose, but I tend to think that Netley isn't a viable suspect, as he wasn't viewed as a suspect by the police at the time. Had there been even the tiniest smidgeon of suspicion, they would've interviewed him. And as far as I am aware, they didn't.
B |
Author: Chris Phillips
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 04:22 am | |
Brian
Thanks for that explanation.
It would depend on the exact context, I suppose, but I could imagine there would be quite a difference between someone asking a cabbie to go into the heart of the slum district in the early hours, and picking up a fare in Aldgate High Street to go into the suburbs...
People "slumming it" could be one source of custom for cabs - it's not hard to think of literary examples (Dickens, Oscar Wilde and so on). Then there were (presumably) respectable places of entertainment such as the Imperial Club, which evidently kept late hours. It would be interesting to know for sure.
I'm not so much interested in cabbies as suspects, as in cabs as a possible form of transport for the killer. |
Author: Dan Norder
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 10:41 am | |
Brian-
I don't think the fact the people were slummin' is contradictory to the idea that cabs were rare.
But, more to the point, cabs were conspicuous and loud. As Christian says, the fact that we have reports of hearing people *walking* near the crime scenes means that a cab thundering along would not go unreported.
The only way I think a cab could have been involved would be if Jack mostly was on foot but had a cab quite a long ways away from the crime scenes to go to.
Dan
----------------------------------------------------------------
Consider supporting this great site by making a donation |
Author: Timsta
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 01:07 pm | |
Hi all.
All I can say is, have you ever tried to get a cab to take you to the East End, even today?
"Hackney, mate."
"Nah, gerrahht the cab."
(Yes, that is illegal.)
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Len White
Sunday, 26 January 2003 - 03:15 pm | |
Hi All
I'm back to maybe answer a few questions, Diana it's most likely Jack used a cab,especially if you happen drive one, how else could he get to Mitre Sq from Berners St in under half an hour, To Dan, Cabs did not stick out like sore thumbs then, there was curb crawling even in those days, and remember not 2 miles away is Hackney, (ever heard of the Hackney carriage company.)
In answer to Monty and Chris's cabs might have got stopped, at the time there were Police reports of a Royal Coach in Whitechapel on some of the nights of the murders(hence the Royal connection of which I am not overly convinced of royal babie's), but John Netley was a jobbing Cabbie it was said he, or the Company he sometimes worked for a Messrs Thompson, Mckay & Co was under licence to the Royal Mews, so he would have carried The Royal Crest in his trunk at the back, ready to pick up an Ambassador or an equerry, to take to Buckingham Palace.
Brian, yes he was arrested, but I am not sure for what, but then so was half of Whitechapel, I think it was because of Israel Schwartz's discription of a broad shouldered man?
Is there a Masonic Connection? I have recently found out that old John, was a Mason, and that his Lodge was at, The Gibraltar Public House, in Princes Yard opposite George's Yard, centre Geographically of all 5 murders,and the Landlord of The Gibraltar was John Percy Sutton, Netley's Brother-in-law, is that not a convenient operational base.
Dan, A donation to this site would not be a bad idea, how about a collection for a Headstone for Elizabeth Stride, if anybody has ever visited the gravesites, it seems to me to be a shame, that she has never had one, as to the collecting perhaps our sponsors might be able to think of a way.
Len |
Author: Dan Norder
Monday, 27 January 2003 - 12:45 am | |
Len,
"how else could he get to Mitre Sq from Berners St in under half an hour"
Well, first off, you are assuming he was ever in Dutfield's Yard. As we don't know that he was responsible for Stride's death, the question may not even be relevant.
But, assuming he did kill Stride, the simplest answer of how he got from Berners St. to Mitre Square is that he walked.
It's not that far.
"To Dan, Cabs did not stick out like sore thumbs then,"
Sorry, but I have to disagree. They are extremely loud and obvious. Witnesses would have reported them if they were anywhere near the death scenes.
Dan
----------------------------------------------------------------
Consider supporting this great site by making a donation |
Author: Jeff Murrish
Monday, 27 January 2003 - 01:59 pm | |
| It seems to me that the police must have interviewed cabbies at the time of the murders. If so, they would have paid particular attention to one who picked up a fare at the site of Stride's murder, and delivered him to Mitre Square! Conjecture, I know. |
Author: Len White
Monday, 27 January 2003 - 05:31 pm | |
Jeff
That is assuming there was a fare to pick up, what if the murderer owned, or had the use of a cab, (See previous correspondence.)
Len |
Author: Jeff Murrish
Monday, 27 January 2003 - 06:03 pm | |
| Good point. |
Author: Timsta
Monday, 27 January 2003 - 06:21 pm | |
Len:
Just wanna clear up some confusion about Hackney carriages (being an ex-resident).
For a long time, 'Hackney carriage' was an unofficial and derogatory appellation, being defined as 'a carriage pulled by Hackney-type horses'. Hackney was where a lot of the horse slaughterhouses and rendering plants were situated (knacker's yards, as they were known), and so a 'Hackney-type horse' would be one that was fit for the glue factory and not much else.
Regards
Timsta (who is pretty knackered today) |
Author: Mark Andrew Pardoe
Monday, 27 January 2003 - 06:47 pm | |
And futher more, the term "hackney cab" is an official description carried by cabs in several authorities throughout Britain. Off the top of my head I think in both Peterborough and Cambridge (although I may be wrong there). The words usually appear on the licence plate (that is the plate which carries the taxi's number and not to be confused with the registration/index plate).
Also I agree cabs would "stick out like a sore thumb", especially on streets which seemed to be devoid of all other vehicular traffic.
Cheers, Mark standing in the rain on High Holborn waiting for the mythical black cab |
Author: Len White
Tuesday, 28 January 2003 - 04:58 pm | |
To All, who have a problem with sore thumbs.
When was the last time you got up from bed,when you heard a Ford Fiesta go by, you probably did'nt, it might have been a Vauxhall Astra, for all you might have known, we are talking of a nearly 24 hour London, people were going to work at all hours, East Smithfields, Billingsgate and Spitalfields and not to mention Columbia Street Market started operating at about 1o/c in the morning, there would have been carts (horse drawn or hand) going to the markets or coming from, trotting to and from, maybe because they were late, Even old Diemschutz was just getting back from a Saturday stint at Westow Hill Market at Sydenham at about 1 o/c himself.
Not forgetting the Docks, Casual labour had to be at the dock gates for 2 o/c so a start off at 1 o/c would not be unusual.
And lastly Milk Men were not adverse to doing their rounds a bit lively, not door to door, but to the Dairys, reason was they could get extra money delivering to other Dairys, if a Milk Man did not turn up for work, or do another job elsewhere, I know that this happened then, my Grand-dad was a Milk Man in those times, in the Egware Rd area.
Len
P.S
Look in (The Jack the Ripper A to Z) The first Picture in will give you an Idea how many there were, you will also notice some Dray horses and carts on the right. |
Author: Monty
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 11:51 am | |
Hi,
Surely a cab would hinder no end...think of the practicality
Why do no witnesses report seeing a cab?..Im thinking of Lewande, Schwartz, Holland, Cross and Paul, Thain....I cannot think of one....can you ??
Monty
|
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 06:03 pm | |
Hi Monty,
I agree with your comments that there is no evidence to show that a cab was used at all by the killer. The idea that Jack used a cab is just another of those stories which can be found in Stephen Knights book. |
Author: Mark Andrew Pardoe
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 06:41 pm | |
Whatho Len,
The first photograph appearing in the A-Z was taken in daylight not at 3.40am. Nobody reports any vehicular traffic at all in Buck's Row. The chaps going to work may have been carmen but they were, as all the other workers in the area, on foot.
Further more, there were no carts obscuring the view of Israel Schwartz as he wandered along Berner Street. Fanny Mortimer didn't notice a cab as she stood at her front door taking the air and as for Packer, well he would have claimed there was a cab in his attic if he thought it would have given himself further notability.
Cheer, Mark getting out the ay for the orses |
Author: Timsta
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 06:52 pm | |
Mark:
I might be wrong, but I *think* 'carman' refers to someone who pushes a handcart, not someone who drives a carriage.
Regards
Timsta |
Author: John Savage
Monday, 03 February 2003 - 09:27 pm | |
Timsta,
I am afraid you are wrong, "carman" definitely refers to someome who drives a horse drawn cart or carriage, usually in my experience of the word, a cart hauling goods. The word was still in use in this sence in the 1960's when the driver of a goods vehicle was still sometimes refered to as a "carman"
Regards
John Savage |
Author: Len White
Tuesday, 04 February 2003 - 02:16 pm | |
I agree John
The 1901 Census says that John Netley was a Carman, I cannot see old Johnny boy pushing people around in a hand cart, fruit and Veg yes! people no, Piccadilly Luv, jump into my Barra for 2/6d, but it'll take half the night to get there.
Len |
Author: Mark Andrew Pardoe
Tuesday, 04 February 2003 - 06:58 pm | |
Whatho all,
There is still a livery company for carmen. In 1974 (the newest Kellys I have) its office was at 2 Stratford Place W1.
Cheers, ever one for useless information, Mark |
Author: Timsta
Tuesday, 04 February 2003 - 07:36 pm | |
John:
"I am afraid you are wrong, "carman" definitely refers to someome who drives a horse drawn cart or carriage, usually in my experience of the word, a cart hauling goods."
Goddammit, I hate it when that happens. I must have been confusing it with "Cartman".
Still, not cognate with "cabbie", then?
Screw you guys, I'm going home,
Timsta |
Author: stephen miller
Wednesday, 05 February 2003 - 04:20 pm | |
Hi All I have a dictionary of old trades which is by no means a complete list of occupations but under Carman it states- same as Carter which in turn states person in charge of a cart sometimes a stable
hope this helps but probably not
steve |
Author: Monty
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 11:41 am | |
Right, thats settled then Chaps...
....its time to Get Carter
Monty..whos a big bloke but out of shape..for Mark its a way of life........
 |
Author: Timsta
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 12:55 pm | |
Monty:
Pint of bitter. Straight glass.
Regards
Get Timsta
PS they are not gonna want you sticking your bugle in up there, my son. |
Author: Mark Andrew Pardoe
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 05:37 pm | |
Whatho all,
Bogger! I've missed "Get Carter"; one of the best films ever made.
Nevermind, "A Matter of Life and Death" is on tomorrow afternoon. It features in my top ten films. It's just briliant.
Cheers, Mark who's a little worried because Monty seems to know him very well yet they have never met  |
Author: Neale Carter
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 10:42 pm | |
Len and others,
As you are discussing cabs I wondered if this would be of interest.
Manchester Guardian Saturday, October 6, 1888
"Mysterious Affair in the East End"
Shortly before midnight last night a cab containing two men and a woman was observed to stop near a dark railway arch in Brick Lane, in the East End of London. The men alighted and deposited upon the ground the woman, who was insensible. Three men who observed these movements raised an alarm, whereupon the men drove off in the cab. One of them, however, returned, was recognised, and was taken to the Commercial Road Police Station, where he is detained. He gives the name of Johnson. The affair has caused great excitement in the neighbourhood.
Are there any further details known of this incident and do we know the identities of this Johnson or the woman? Any connection to the American James Johnson accused of attempting to stab Elizabeth Hudson on Sept 29?
Neale
PS Don't bother with the remake of Get Carter. |
Author: John Savage
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 05:10 pm | |
Timsta
Am I cognate with "cabbie".
A taxi driver, or in the time of JTR, a hansom cab driver.
Woman in street, - hailing a taxi, "Hey, Cabbie, Hey, cabbie"
Taxi Driver - "Did you call me madam?"
Woman in street, - "No but I will if it helps"
This feeble joke is as old as the term cabbie.
Regards,
John |
Author: Chris Phillips
Saturday, 08 February 2003 - 04:43 am | |
Neale Carter
Evans and Skinner, "Ultimate Sourcebook" (p. 239) quote the "Evening Post" of 6 October as describing this incident as a rumour, with "absolutely no foundation". E and S comment, presumably based on the same report:
"The incident, it later transpired, was nothing more than a drunken brawl which, because of the murders, had become garbled in the telling!" |
Author: Timsta
Saturday, 08 February 2003 - 05:52 pm | |
John:
That was 'cognate', not 'cognisant'!
'Cognate' means a word is a synonym for another. So what I meant was, 'carman' isn't a synonym for 'cabbie' (necessarily).
Regards
Timsta |
