Archive through 19 February 2002

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Archive through 19 February 2002

Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: General Discussion : Where was Jack the Ripper in October?: Archive through 19 February 2002

Author: brycaustin Wednesday, 16 December 1998 - 08:28 pm
Hello guys and gals.......... What was Jack doing in October? Why the absence of time? Could he have been a business man away? Could he have been Jewish as many suspect and October in the Victorian days being a month full of jewish remembrance days(holidays) took that month off? Or was the heat on him and he just decided to take time off to cool down? Or the last thing i want to add is was Eddowes truly Jacks last victim and Kelly killed by her friend Joseph? Thus explaining why no killings in October? I got this idea from something I read from someone else, I just think it's worth looking into. Seems a bit odd that a serial killer with this much rage could stop for a month....I mean I'm sure it's possible but not likely...How about an opinion?
Author: Yazoo Wednesday, 16 December 1998 - 10:53 pm
Hey, Brycaustin JtR was nearly caught in the act at the end of September. He made his usual two kills in the same night instead of a week apart (Eddowes would be counted for the first week of October). He was angry, frustrated, and probably scared. He wanted privacy for his next murder to fully vent his rage at being seen. The longer he waited, the angrier and more frustrated he got. Kelly's death scene is the result. It took a while to find Kelly and her private room (yes, I think he stalked her or rather was searching for that room, just as I think he stalked the Jewish Socialist Club). Yaz
Author: brycaustin Thursday, 17 December 1998 - 12:20 am
Hi ya Yaz; i see your view, it's something i've been looking for. any explanation is helpful. any explanation! i guess that's why the whitechapel murders have captivated us for so long and shall for sometime to come. i'm a firm believer that no one will ever be caught...ever! Because by now he's become such a folk legend if you will, and even if someone does find ample proof to who the killer really was there will always be skeptics...So i say to you...long live Jack the ripper...thanks again Yaz!
Author: Yazoo Thursday, 17 December 1998 - 06:34 am
Hi, Brycaustin, You're welcome. Mine is just one explanation; not even a very good one. I hope others provide their ideas too. Yaz
Author: Jeff D Thursday, 17 December 1998 - 01:01 pm
Hello Brycaustin, Yaz, et al ! I think a very good reason for the cessation of murders, was the introduction of the bloodhounds, "Barnaby and Burgho" in October. If the killer was a very local man, he could have been very aware of the success the bloodhounds were having in their trial runs. If the hounds didn't have far to track, the possibility of a murderer being discovered by the hounds following his (victims) blood trail would be great. I really think the introduction of the hounds are significant for October, and this emphasizes (to me) that the villain would have been a very local man. Just my opinion, but I think it's worth-while to consider the possibility. If the hounds had to track over a long distance, they wouldn't have proved very successful, but if for example, they just had to track from say, Mitre Sq., or Berner St., to somewhere very near by, in Whitechapel, they would have had a great chance of tracking a scent. Everyone in Whitechapel knew that the police had these canine detectives on the job, so it makes sense that the murderer would have lain low for a while. Uh !?!?!? Jeff D
Author: brycaustin Thursday, 17 December 1998 - 07:39 pm
Hello Jeff; I am a newcomer to this thing so i hadn't heard of the bloodhound thing, have alot of research to do. Wife thinks I've gone overboard with my fixation on this thing we call ripperology! Oh well, push forward, anyhow I think that theory is a credible one considering any theory to me is worth considering... Thank you for you contribution to my question!
Author: Jeff D Friday, 18 December 1998 - 11:43 am
Yoh Brycaustin ! Of course my explanation is in no way definitive. It is my opinion though, and does make sense to me. I got the idea from Phil Sugden's book which so far is one of the best factual books on the subject I have read. You may also check out Jack the Ripper A-Z, + a few other for details of the true facts. Cheers Jeff D
Author: Julian Tuesday, 08 June 1999 - 09:22 pm
G'day everyone, Just though I'd chuck in something serious that probably doesn't have much to do with anything but just a thought anyway. I was on the bus this morning when this very (VERY) large person sat next to me, or should I say ON me, when I thought "what if someone was to try and re-perpetrate the murders in 1999?" (It's amazing where my thoughts come from) Was Jack re-enacting something that took place in 1777? Has anyone looked into this? I know there was some fairly active police activity happening around Whitechapel in 1988. Anyway, just a thought. Back to nursing my crushed leg, and bruised ribs. Jules
Author: Caz Wednesday, 09 June 1999 - 04:08 am
Hi Jules, Just to add a bit more to this one: That recent nail-bomb going off around Brick Lane, trying to incite terror and racism in an area with a highly-spiced Bengali flavour (love all those curry places there!), did make me think of 111 years ago with the Jewish situation. Isn't it sad that we appear not to have learned much in all that time? History does have a tendency to repeat itself, but how much of it is planned that way by individuals, and how much can we put down to fate, coincidence or good old human nature? On buses, I tend to get the drunk sitting next to me telling me his life story. So if I had been on your bus, Jules, I would have sat on you first, killing two birds with eight stone so to speak. We could then keep the drunk and the large person entertained wondering what in hell we were up to (wink). Love, Caz
Author: Calogridis Sunday, 20 June 1999 - 09:19 pm
Howdy Caz, Jules: Caz- Nod, nod. Wink, wink. Say no more, say no more! Jules- I was thinking the same thing, mate. Maybe the Autumn of 1999 will hold something special like the Autumn of 1888. Perhaps it will be that curious year of three nines. Best wishes to y'all! Cheers.........Mike
Author: Julian Monday, 21 June 1999 - 12:05 am
G'day Caz, Mike, Yeah mate, that's what I was thinking of. It'd be a pretty silly bastard who'd try and reenact the murders though. Then again I've just finished reading a story about a couple of New Zealanders who used a taxi to rob a bank! Jules
Author: Caz Monday, 21 June 1999 - 03:42 pm
Hi you two! Stop it. You're making me shiver. I really don't like to think of the potential nutters out there reading this web-site (is there any other?), and getting stupid ideas of becoming infamous at others' expense. Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy. (It doesn't work so well in print, does it, Carry-on fans? Like trying to convey stuff without the benefit of eye-contact, body language and smiles, sigh.) All the best, mates Or, all the best mates, Love, Caz
Author: Diana_Comer Saturday, 26 June 1999 - 02:00 pm
We have a serial killer operating in the United States right now. The media is full of it. Every law enforcement agency is on tenterhooks. People are buying guns and locks for their doors, the police have stepped up patrols. None of this has deterred him (Rafael Resendez Ramirez). He just goes right on happily killing people. If JTR was sufficiently coo-coo (I think John Douglas would call it "disorganized"), I'm not sure dogs, vigilance committees, police patrols or hysterical mobs (of which there were a number) would be sufficient to slow him down. However, the hunting would not have been good in October. Most of the Whitechapel prostitutes were scared silly after the double event and were staying inside. He had to wait for the alarm to die down. Maybe that's why Kelly was killed inside. There just werent that many women on the street.
Author: Calogridis Sunday, 27 June 1999 - 11:06 am
Howdy Caz, Jules, Diana: Diana- Good observation! Resendez seems to operate on the railroad as a freight train hobo. Eight confirmed murders so far, all fairly near to the rails. They say he tutors mathematics (parallels to Druitt, anyone?), so is obviously intelligent. Yes, dangerous and another 5' 6'' guy like Jack- well Jules, we have our answer. Thanks, Diana. I saw a statistic on the news the other day that there were 35-40 serial killers operating in the U.S. as we speak!! A staggering statistic. Keep up the good work! Cheers.........Mike
Author: Caz Sunday, 27 June 1999 - 04:53 pm
Howdy All, Good points Diana. And the prospect of house-to-house searches may have prompted our Jack to spend October tidying up any incriminating stuff at home before continuing with his opus. He may also have been quite busy playing offal games with Lusk and co. :-) My sympathy goes out to all the families and friends of the victims of current serial killers. What I can't understand is why, if an intelligent person is so damaged and angry with life that they have an irresistable urge to destroy a human being, they don't simply do away with themselves and cut out the middle man (or woman)? I guess I'm very naive, but what is the achievement in hurting someone remote from one's own turbulent life? What is the sense of satisfaction gained from seeing someone else, usually a stranger, suffer? And why do they often turn out to be short in stature (or 'vertically challenged' :-))? Sounds like they could be suffering from chips on shoulders and/or massive inferiority complexes. Sorry for my Sunday night meanderings. I'll try to straighten them up a bit before Monday night. Love, Caz
Author: Christopher George Sunday, 27 June 1999 - 09:46 pm
Hi, Caz, Diana, and Mike: The October hiatis is certainly an interesting puzzle. Maybe Jack was not in town but elsewhere? Most likely, as Diana says, he was afraid to murder again so soon after the double event. Whether he was responsible for the double event on the morning of September 30, 1888, is another question -- a lot of people today think that he may have been responsible for murdering only one woman (Eddowes) and not the other (Stride). But nevertheless the public perception was that he did both murders, whether he did or not. We have often contemplated the reasons why Mary Jane Kelly's murder on November 9 was different to the other killings. As Diana notes, Kelly's murder may have been done indoors because Jack was afraid to murder on the street. Did he, as Caz implies, take the opportunity during his enforced October sabbatical to write taunting letters to the police and to post at least one human organ (i.e., allegedly Eddowes's missing left kidney) to the police? My fellow latter-day detectives, only one person knew the answer to this question. His name was Jack. Chris George
Author: Matthew Delahunty Sunday, 27 June 1999 - 11:42 pm
Hi all, I'm not sure whether the Kelly indoor thing is necessarily any more complicated. Unlike the four(?) preceding victims Kelly did have her own room. Perhaps Jack only killed where the transaction was to take place. Therefore there is nothing unusual about Jack killing indoors except that he got lucky in choosing a prostitute who happened to take her clients back to her private room. Personally, I do believe that the increased hysteria and police activity after the double murder probably have something to do with the temporary cessation. I also have reason to believe that Jack ventured over to the US during October, returning in early November. Dela
Author: Leanne Monday, 28 June 1999 - 05:19 am
G'day Caz, I prefer your suggestion that 'Jack' stopped for the month to 'tidy' up any incriminating evidence at home. LEANNE!
Author: D. Radka Monday, 28 June 1999 - 11:21 am
I don't believe that JtR experienced fear the same way normal people do. I think he did maybe have some feelings of anxiety of someone coming 'round the corner when he was removing internal organs, etc., but to say that he waited a month before killing Kelly because he was afraid of the police is refuted by the way he committed the earlier murders. David
Author: Leanne Tuesday, 29 June 1999 - 01:45 am
G'day David, Remember he almost got caught, murdering Stride? If that wasn't enough to scare him, he thought himself clever enough to outsmart the police and murdered his next victim indoors. LEANNE
Author: Jon Smyth Tuesday, 29 June 1999 - 06:12 am
Leanne We can't say for sure who murdered Stride, her attack was completely out of character with the attacks of Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes. Not the same style at all, whoever attacked her had little regard for his own safety, wasn't concerned about being seen, and apart from the fact that a knife was used on her throat, there's nothing else to draw a similarity with the other Ripper murders. Jon
Author: Leanne Tuesday, 29 June 1999 - 07:30 am
G'day Jon, Do you believe that the 'Saucy Jacky' postcard, telling of the 'Double event' before it was in the newspapers, was a lucky hoax? OK, she was murdered with a different knife. This may have been her own knife, she thought would protect her. LEANNE
Author: Guy Hatton Tuesday, 29 June 1999 - 08:03 am
Leanne - No need for the postcard to have been a "lucky" hoax at all. Although, as you say, it told of the "Double Event" before the newspaper reports had begun to appear, it almost certainly does not precede widespread knowledge of the murders in the area. It seems that people were rushing to the murder sites in great numbers by 11 am on the Sunday morning, as reported by Sugden. So no "inside" information was required by the author of the card. All the Best Guy
Author: Jon Smyth Tuesday, 29 June 1999 - 11:37 am
Leanne. If you check out the postal times & dates of Dear Boss & Saucy Jacky etc, you'll find ample time for an 'enterprising Journalist' to give this series of murders an eternal life,....just for jolly, wouldn't you? (Thanks Guy) Regards, Jon
Author: D. Radka Tuesday, 29 June 1999 - 01:57 pm
Leanne, I don't believe he almost got caught murdering Stride. Common opinion is that Diemschutz scared him out of the yard, but Diemschutz didn't see him. I think he was gone as many as five minutes before Diemschutz arrived, and that he left because he had completed his work. David
Author: dclydew Wednesday, 04 August 1999 - 07:42 am
Has anyone checked where our common suspects were in October? Is it possible that they were in jail for a completely unrelated crime? Of course its possible that he merely had a lapse of sanity. went about his daily work no desire to kill... or perhaps the situation never came about. He may have tried unsucessfully to commit the crimes. Perhaps interruptions, or skittish whores? Do we have info on which suspects were otherwise occupied during those weeks?
Author: Nikki Dormer Thursday, 05 August 1999 - 04:46 am
Hey Everyone!! Jules - Just a little something which occurred to me while reading over this board - you mentioned back in early June what it would be like if Jack was murdering now. There's actually a book about it called 'The House that Jack Built' and it's a sort of 'what if' sort of thing where Jack is murdering today in Sydney. My mum's read it, she said it's quite good. sorry guys, bit off the subject, but oh well. Love Nikki.
Author: dogman Thursday, 04 November 1999 - 11:13 am
has anyone considered the possibility that jack was struggling not to kill anymore? It would explain the ferocity of the kelley murder. it is not entirely unheard of. besides, as is the ripper appears to have limited him or herself to two killings a month anyway, so what is a few more weeks.
Author: Bob Hinton Friday, 05 November 1999 - 12:12 am
Dogman, You are assuming that JTR saw killing as something to be resisted. Killers, for the most part, look upon killing as a natural an act as puting on trousers. Would you agonise a whole month about dressing yourself? all the best Bob Hinton
Author: Bob_C Friday, 05 November 1999 - 03:56 am
Hi Dogman, For my part, I can fully visualise that some killers, just as some other criminals, could have periods of 'regret' over their deeds and urges at some time or another. In cases of insanity, such periods are well marked in the lives of criminal patients such as those with which I have had contact with in the past. Some patients claimed that they had done all sorts of things to try and prevent their urges from taking control. As reported to me, a typical case was that of a mother who had killed all her three children. She had attempted suicide some time before the murders, trying to protect her children from herself. By coincidence, she was found in time to save her and tragically, the real cause of the attempt was not bought to light. She was put back into the family.... In Jack's case, however, the pattern of ever-increasing violence is evidence of the increase shown by most serial killers of this type, not only sexual, from victim to victim. The complete indifference to, or contempt of, the victim, just the satisfying of the urge usually coupled with overweening arrogance, is the hallmark of the type Bob H. refers to. I have intentionally not used the word 'insane' here. I believe that a serial killer must be, by definition, insane in the medical, when not legal sense. Those with whom I had contact to had been committed as legally insane and were thus not answerable at law. That could pose a question as to Jack's condition, had he been caught, but that is another story. Best regards, Bob
Author: Jeff Bloomfield Saturday, 10 February 2001 - 09:38 pm
I don't know what he did for that month of October 1888. Maybe he attended one of the first performances of the new Gilbert and Sullivan Savoy Opera, The Yeoman of the Guard. It was the only serious one of the Savoy Operas, as in it , Jack Point (the protaganist) dies of a broken heart. If he was Jewish, he could have taken off for some of the autumnal holidays, although it would be advantageous to know what were the actual dates of Rosh Hashonah, Yom Kippur, Succoth, and Simchas Torah. It is rather hard to believe that he dashed to the U.S. in that month. The normal sea trip was about ten days. He would have been at sea both ways for twenty days, with maybe ten days in the U.S. Rather rushed for a visit. My opinion is that he was unable to do anything, because he was violently ill, and was in a hospital, nearly at death's door, due to a prostitute. And he knew it, and came out of prison wanting to destroy his next victim - which he did. What happens if an idiot removes a woman's kidney, and he decides (without thinking of consequences) he eats half of it? And then writes about doing it, and tells someone, "it was very nice". Well, if he did write that letter, and actually did it, then he ate a diseased kidney. And I suspect he got sick from it. And he was unable to tell the doctors what caused it. He couldn't say, "I ate a bad human kidney." With the publicity of the half he had sent in the mail, any mention of a kidney would have risked exposure. He could say tainted meat, but even so, it would hamper the doctors care of him. But he would have been furious at those bitches who reached back from the grave to poison him. He'd show them when he recovered. And recover he did, unfortunately. And Mary Jane Kelly suffered horribly as a result. That anyway is what I think could have happened. It is only a guess - that is all.
Author: Diana Sunday, 11 February 2001 - 12:32 am
A fascinating possibility. I would love to hear what Dr. Ind would say. The writer claimed to have fried it I believe. Wouldn't that have killed a lot of the germs? It is also possible that the massive increase in police patrols hampered him and drove him to ground for a time.
Author: Martin Fido Sunday, 11 February 2001 - 06:45 am
My personal belief is that the increase of police patrols, swamping Whitechapel and Spitalfield, made it increasingly difficult for him to be certain that he attracted no attention in picking up a victim. (Bearing in mind that at least one prostitute complained that police clumping into the back corners she preferred for knee-tremblers were scaring away her punters, he may even have gone off hopefully with one or two potential victims, and left in a hurry on hearing PC Plod). I add to that speculation the second speculation that the resultant frustration could have built up into the collapse into outright mania which afflicted David Cohen early in December. Forensic psychologist Prof Luigi Cancrini agreed that this was a very plausible case history. Martin Fido
Author: Jon Sunday, 11 February 2001 - 10:13 am
This is one of the reason's I feel Jack was a local man. Several theories involve suspects and transportation, like "did he ride the underground?"....."were the killings performed in a carriage?", these theories usually deal with a killer who is not suggested to be of the East End. So, in October, when the East End was alive with patrols, why did our killer not simply travel to a nearby district?, or somewhere else altogether?, there were many other area's where he could pick up prostitutes,...he didn't, likely because, he was from the area in question. IF, as some propose, he was "down on whores", and IF, as some propose, he had means of transportation, then why restrict himself to the East End?....the streets of this part of the metropolis basically never sleep. Other parts of London were much less populated at night and still had the haven's for prostitution. It's not a strong point, I know, but just one of several contributing factors, along with his obvious familiarity with the area, the witness descriptions, the victims pockets turned out, (to get his 2d back?), little hints like that, things that suggest a working class local man. Regards, Jon
Author: Christopher T George Sunday, 11 February 2001 - 11:08 am
Hi, Jon: OR, if I can mention the dreaded "M" word, if he was Maybrick, why didn't he commit a few murders back in his native Liverpool, where the prostitutes of Lime Street and Scotland Road would have been ready victims? The (probably hoax) letters threaten murders up and down the country, one of them saying he would kill five in Birmingham, but it didn't happen. Why? I think you are quite correct, Jon. He was a local man not a visitor, or at least had some reason to want to commit all the murders in the same district. Best regards Chris George
Author: R.J. Palmer Monday, 12 February 2001 - 08:14 am
Jon--But if Eddowes was the last victim, do we still have a local man? Do we really know that JtR hung around for Kelly? Hazelwood's opinions aside, the 'victimology' in Kelly's case looks different to me. Dr. Forshaw went as far as calling the victims (I'm assuming he left Kelly out) 'anti-sex' symbols: the motive was anger, not sexual gratification, and the perpetrator an older man. (In his opinion, of course. It should be remembered that he is arguing for the Maybrick diary). But I'm wondering this: Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes. Three victims in 30 days. This seems too fast of a rate even for the most prolific of sexual psychopaths, especially for one with the leisure to wander around the area and fantasize over his previous outrages. Are you sure your organ thief wasn't an older fellow from outside the area? Or an accomplice thereof? (I don't mean Maybrick :-) !!!) RP
Author: Jon Monday, 12 February 2001 - 08:51 pm
R.J. I gave up being sure about anything in this case long ago. I just like to raise the occational 'pot-boiler' to keep the discussion on edge :-) Regards, Jon
Author: R.J. Palmer Tuesday, 13 February 2001 - 01:47 am
Jon --I feel the same way. I was just hoping to get a little life out of this, myself. :-( Best wishes, RPalmer.
Author: Kev Kilcoyne Monday, 18 February 2002 - 07:27 pm
It's been a while since this thread was added to, but I thought it was so interesting I'd try and revive it. I think the reason for JTR being inactive in October can be guessed at and falls into one of three catagories: Inability; Disinclination; Distance. Inability: If our man was mentally ill and therefore not able to come and go completely at will, this might explain things. Was he the sort of patient who had frequent attacks of some dementia, possibly related to physical debilitation? There may have been periods of inertia and apathy following one of his murderous attacks, possibly interspersed with violence at home or work when 'provoked'. This may have led relatives to take him to the hospital where he may have been kept in depending on the seriousness of his behaviour. This sort of condition would get worse as time went on possibly diffused by attacks then building again so there may have been a cycle of treatment and release. I think in this case the individual would have had sufficient control not to be considered an out and out maniac, but this control would be bought at what price? Was JTR in hospital in October being treated after the frustrations and blood letting of the Stride/Eddowes killings? With this sort of scenario, we are definitely into Mr Fido's Cohen theory, he being a candidate who fits, albeit imperfectly into this sort of mould. Disinclination: I particularly liked the theme developed earlier around the killer suffering remorse and struggling not to kill. This is sophisticated thinking and ties in with some kind of moral framework, albeit one which JTR had to throw off from time to time. One can think of the intense guilt which certain religious views can create in people. For example (and no insult meant to the devout or those of balanced mind) but Roman Catholicism, particularly many years ago was very much built on instilling guilt as a means of preventing misbehaviour. Guilt even for thinking certain things. Are we talking Joseph Barnett here or maybe Tumblety? Of course it could just be that the killer knew it was wrong and feared the gallows, trying to stop after each killing. Whilst anger and misogynism appear to be the primay forces, restraint may well have been forced into the background temporarily. This sort of pattern is apparent in a great many mental conditions and may have been induced by religion of whatever flavour. Was JTR in the throws of a huge mental struggle and therefore not inclined to attack in October? Distance: A number of theories have referred to individuals being out of the country. As was mentioned in an earlier post, it would be possible to travel to and return from America in a month, but given the privations of such travel at the time, I hardly think it is likely. It is however possible that JTR was employed in some trade which took him away from London for periods of time and here I am thinking particularly of sailors. How far could you go in a month? It has been mentioned before and the Police were making enquiries about individuals who worked on the Cattle Boats. A round-trip to Europe or maybe Ireland? Laid up for a while abroad before returning? The Police behaviour after Coles was murdered (Thomas Sadler) tends to support this view. Sailors were to be expected in the East End. As soon as the boats put in, many would go looking for beer and women to blow their wages on. There is some circumstancial evidence here. The attacker of Ada Wilson had a sunburnt face. I am sure I have seen this description in relation to another attack, but if we take a massive leap and accept Wilson as an early victim where did he get a sunburn in late March? Cattle Boat to Spain or somewhere similar perhaps? There are other witness descriptions which mention an appearance similar to a sailor. If so, was Jack afloat in October and building up a fair old bloodlust for his return? Just some thoughts based on those of previous posters.
Author: Michael Conlon Tuesday, 19 February 2002 - 04:40 pm
Hi Kev, As a poster named Jack Bailey has perceptively pointed out, there was a severe hurricane along the North-Eastern seaboard of the United States for much of October. Whether or not this had a major effect on shipping, I don't know, but it is worth taking note of.