Archive through 04 November 2002

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Archive through 04 November 2002

Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Ripper Suspects: Cornwell Archives: Archive through 04 November 2002

Author: Vicki Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 12:18 pm
Does anyone know if Sickert was the only artist to use the Ripper murders as a subject (for a painting, etc.)? Vicki
Author: Vicki Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 12:18 pm
Deleted Sorry, I must have clicked twice.
Author: Stewart P Evans Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 12:29 pm
Classic quotes No. 1. "These poor women seemed to be screaming out for help from beyond the grave. Suddenly this was more than research for one of my novels. This was a criminal investigation, this was my crusade..." - Patricia Cornwell.
Author: Stewart P Evans Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 12:32 pm
Classic quotes No. 2. "Since I began my career in 1990...soon I started making a lot of money and began to have privileges that your average person would never even dream of..." - Patricia Cornwell.
Author: Stewart P Evans Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 12:38 pm
Classic quotes No. 3. "I never really had any concept of who Jack the Ripper was, but as I began to study his crimes I formulated very quickly that this was somebody who was an organized killer. Who premeditated what he was doing. Knew how to strike and knew how to get away." - Patricia Cornwell. She still doesn't.
Author: Stewart P Evans Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 12:43 pm
Classic quotes No. 4. "When I first came to the Public Record Office and looked at the Jack the Ripper letters I was very disconcerted because so many of them seemed to be in different writing styles, and I thought these can't possibly, there's no way that they could possibly be by one person..." - Vada Hart (Former Sickert archivist on the Cornwell team)
Author: Stewart P Evans Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 12:59 pm
Classic quotes No. 5. [Re- the 'Jack the Ripper' letters] "Looking at them more closely I began to notice consistencies. There are consistencies about the mocking tone. There are consistencies in the way that they were sent. There are other things that strike me, look at that, the way that 'Boss' is written on that [the purple ink letter to Mr Saunders of 4 December 1888], that has to be written with a very thick nib but then the writing below is much thinner. Whoever this was, was using two different writing instruments. And you'll find that through many letters. They're using, perhaps, a brush, perhaps a thick pen, perhaps a pencil that's sharpened to a chisel end. Who would do that? It has to be an artist." - Vada Hart.
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 01:32 pm
Dear Kev Kilcoyne, For your enlightenment ONLY...See Keyword Search, "Jack the Ripper's Bedroom", 30th January 2002, an email from Sickert 'expert' explaining the circumstances relating to the photograph of this painting ( and another!) and its mis-entry in the "A-Z of Jack the Ripper" under the heading "The Veterinary Student". Patricia Cornwell made her enquiries to the curator of Manchester City Art Galleries AFTER READING ABOUT IT HERE ON THE CASEBOOK...NO OTHER WAY! Since I suspect the painting to be a fake Sickert and the title a hoax...we needed a Patsy! Rosey :-)
Author: Garry Ross Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 02:32 pm
Jim, I'm another Scot living in England and...stands up and looks shamefully at the floor Hi, I'm Garry and I'm...gulp..a vegetarian. so I failed in my lack of eating any sort of flesh etc. "The shot of Ms Cornwell's team marching furrowed browed, tight-lipped and in close formation towards the Public Record Office, was a sight to behold. However, a glorious opportunity to air Wagner's "The Ride of the Valkyries" was lost." That was one of the more OTT parts of the whole thing wasn't it? They really should have got them to parachute into the building with guns blazing Stewart, Those quotes ARE classic! Also the few times she said "I think..." too, the whole thing was very melodramatic. Imagine the letters being in so many different styles etc? You'd think that perhaps a lot of people were sending them wouldn't you? I must be misled though as $6 million can't be wrong can it? take care Garry
Author: Garry Ross Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 02:40 pm
If I could put my tongue as firmly into my cheek as possible I have a new suspects or suspects... using the Ripper murders as their subject matter I hereby accuse the artists behind the 'Illustrated Police News'. I mean, he/they were always up on the events weren't they? and that cost me the grand total of around...well nothing actually take care Garry
Author: Warwick Parminter Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 03:16 pm
Just a couple of questions and observations. A "Contract Killer", or a person paid to kill,--someone he does know,-- someone he doesn't know, it didn't matter which. In my opinion,- he's a business man, it was illegal, it was evil, but it was a service used quite a lot by gangster bosses in the twenties and thirties. When the killer ran out of business did he kill for the heck of it as a serial killer? ( I've killed fifteen and I can't stop now", I don't think that was the case at all, he killed purely for gain, he didn't kill for love,-- no money, no agreement-- no killing. He could stop when he wanted, or when circumstances dictated. I think you are giving the human being too much credit, of course there are those who can't stop once started, BUT, there are those who look at human beings in the same way as you hunters when it comes to making money,--or gain in some other way, they are stone cold, I shall never understand how you hunters can look through a scope and kill a beautiful animal that means you no harm, but I am taking it for granted that YOU could STOP and not do it again if circumstances demanded? The other thing is, if you had as much money as Patricia Cornwell, wouldn't you push your theory to the limit?, she's contributed for sure, and she's got us talking. She's a millionairess and I'm certainly not going to say, she doesn't know what she's talking about. If we don't agree with her, there's no need to be so bitter about it,--though we can be that way amongst ourselves,-- I don't understand that. Rick
Author: Christopher T George Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 04:58 pm
Hi, Rick: You stated: "The other thing is, if you had as much money as Patricia Cornwell, wouldn't you push your theory to the limit?, she's contributed for sure, and she's got us talking." Indeed, I agree with you, Rick. That's the thing, for better or worse, with the publicity her book is getting, more people will start studying the case, more people will study Sickert paintings and his life, study the Camden Town murder, etc., etc. Now we may shake our heads at disbelief at what she says , -- Just as we shook our heads at the Royal conspiracy theory and the Maybrick Diary theory. -- But! If her book gets people talking about the case and debating, that can't be a bad thing. In fact, Stephen Ryder, the man behind this wonderful website, "Casebook: Jack the Ripper," relates the story that he began to take an interest in Whitechapel murders after taking an interest in the Diary. One of the earliest pieces of information put on the website was a a report of a visit made to Florence Maybrick's grave in South Kent, Connecticut, where she died in obscurity in 1941 after her 15-year jail term for her alleged murder of James Maybrick in Liverpool. I myself, an ex-pat Liverpudlian, who had been intrigued about the Maybrick Diary from first hearing about it on CBS-TV's "Sixty Minutes" found this site after doing an internet search on "Maybrick" and "Liverpool." Actually, as I recall, the specific search, I made was on "Maybrick" and "Aigburth" the area of Liverpool in which Battlecrease mansion is located, which Florence Maybrick in her memoirs unaccountably calls "Aigworth." -- "For business reasons we settled in a suburb of Liverpool called Aigworth." Florence Elizabeth Maybrick, Mrs. Maybrick's Own Story: My Fifteen Lost Years, Funk & Wagnall's, New York & London, 1905, p. 22. I can recall times in the last few years when these boards have been devoid of messages. Look at them today!!! If Ms. Cornwell's book means, as I anticipate it will, an influx of new people to this site, it cannot be a bad thing. Hurrah and bravo, I say. All the best Chris George
Author: Dean James Hines Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 05:52 pm
Hi Vicki, Just to clarify, when you asked about 'any other artists' applying the subject of JtR to their works I assume that you are inquiring about contemporaries of Sickert. I am not aware of any such artists, and IF (and that's a big IF in my opinion) the murders did form some basis for Sickert's work it does not necessarily imply that Sickert was connected to these events - please see my comments from 30/31/10/02 on Impressionist painting and subject matter. Perhaps the most graphic influences may be seen in German Expressionism of the 1920s. I have already mentioned the unsettling works of Otto Dix. His contemporary George Grosz seemed also preoccupied with depicting sexual violence. As Craig Lambert writes in www.harvardmagazine.com/ ma97/right.lust, the Expressionists' choice of subject was partly a reaction to similar sexual murders in Weimar during the 1920s and an attack on the promiscuity of the age, patricularly sexual liberation. Grosz even depicts himself as Jack the Ripper in a 1918 self portrait illustrated on the above web page. From an art historian's stance on JtR as depicted in art and literature, the enigma that is JtR is an embodiment of the our deepest fears and our basest nature which were set in motion when the first Penny Dreadfuls came off the press during the events of 1888. The name, the image that is conjured up has become iconic. Only the other night, Halloween to be precise, I was returning home from the train station wearing my usual full length overcoat and trilby in this chilly English weather that we are having, and some children called out 'He's Jack the Ripper'. I did wonder at their age how they had arrived at the comparision and could only assume that they had like myself watched the Omnibus documentary the night before where the actor playing JtR was dressed in a similar attire. I just hope my appearance does no have that effect on everbody. To conclude, Jack the Ripper, is sadly a popular and accessible source of inspiration for artists throughout the 20th Century in all mediums. I shall heep my eyes open for any more info on this issue, maybe a painting will come to light to support a case for Sickert's contemporaries. Time reveals all. Regards Dean
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 06:41 pm
Dear Chris George, Perhaps there is more to the Maybrick Diary than meet the eye! Could the real author be cryptically hinting at the two Sickert paintings in Moseley St Art Gallery when he alludes to the... "two in Manchester"? Gosh, its even possible we are being lured into some cosmic-teaser!? Whatever next? Rosey :-)
Author: David Radka Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 07:52 pm
I guess I'd better speed up on my thesis work. With all these new people becoming interested in the case, someone is sure to solve it before long. David
Author: David Radka Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 10:07 pm
It seems to me, based on the above, that Cornwell has more or less bypassed the great Ripperologists in her quest to solve the case, with the possible exception of Rumbelow. She doesn't have substantive contact, nor does she mention them for the most part in her bibliography. This is a serious mistake. Any solution to the case is built on their work, their many analyses and observations, and, yes, an understanding of how they made their mistakes. They are what is edifying in a study of the Whitechapel murders, and it is how one takes a position relative to each of them that perspective is gained. David
Author: Stewart P Evans Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 01:29 am
Classic quotes No. 6. "Patricia is like a bulldog when she gets her teeth into a concept, and idea. She's not one to let loose easily." - Dr. Paul Ferrara.
Author: Stewart P Evans Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 01:31 am
Classic quotes No. 7. "Like the best detectives I've ever worked with, she never lets go. She just goes on and on and on, and she'll get to the bottom of it. And I think she's taken the Jack the Ripper case further than I've seen anybody else take it." - John Grieve.
Author: Jim Jenkinson Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 03:36 am
Wolf, et al, Do you know anything about a Sickert sketch entitled "He killed his father in a fight", which Ms Cornwell has said in her book, "mirrors Mary Kelly's murder scene" ? Best Wishes Jim
Author: Jim Jenkinson Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 04:15 am
The reason I'm asking is, could it be possible, the title comes from a line in William Henry Davies' poem "The Truth". I'm not sure when this poem was published, I'm assuming it was published in "Nature Poems and Others" in 1908. Best Wishes Jim
Author: Stewart P Evans Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 05:09 am
Those interested in the Cornwell/Sickert saga must buy a copy of The Sunday Times and The Sunday Telegraph today, they both contain excellent, relevant pieces. The review in The Sunday Telgraph certainly puts Ms Cornwell in her place. The excellent, lengthy, article in The Sunday Times is written by Sickert's biographer, Matthew Sturgis. His well-written piece begins:- "'I am absolutely positively sure that Walter Sickert was Jack the Ripper,' announces the American crime novelist Patricia Cornwell. It seems rather over-emphatic considering that she has failed to come up with any firm facts after an investigation lasting two years. But Cornwell, whose book Portrait of a Killer is published on November 11, is in the grip of an obsession, one dangerous to truth and the memory of Sickert." It is interesting to note that the subject of our debates on these boards is now being called "the Ripper circus." True, but, perhaps, galling to serious students and historians who have carried out genuine and honest work on this subject. Tellingly Matthew Sturgis states, "In fact, for much of the late summer of 1888 he [Sickert] was staying with his mother and brother in France, 20 miles from Dieppe. The exact dates of his holiday cannot be fixed but he probably left London in the middle of August - one drawing is dated August 4 and after that there are no references to his being in town. On September 6, six days after the murder of the Ripper's first victim and two days before the murder of the second, Sickert's mother wrote to a friend about the happy time they were having. It seems Sickert may have stayed until early October as he painted a picture of a local butcher's shop flooded with the late summer light; he titled it The October Sun. If so, he missed the murders of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes in the early hours of September 30. Cornwell does not even acknowledge this pretty good alibi..." All in all an excellent overview by Matthew Sturgis who obviously knows his subject very well. These two pieces should not be missed. No one denies that all these nonsense theories and fantasies that surround the Royal conspiracy hogwash, Sickert and the 'Maybrick diary' humbug brings new interest in the subject and new recruits. But what is the cost in terms of the truth, genuine history and plain decency?
Author: Howard Brown Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 09:07 am
Dear Mr. Evans: Thanks a million for the quotes you culled !! I have a question if you have the time,sir. Previously,you posted a story on the boards relating to the part that Andy Aliffe played in retrieving the O'Donnell manuscript. Did Mr. Harris tell you that and you just repeated his version of events? Is he your source?You also included in the post that Mr.Harris gives permission for anyone to quote from the Cremers story if they pay a fee to the NSPCC. Did Mr.Harris inform you or is that common knowledge? Thank you very much,Mr. Evans....Howard
Author: Christopher T George Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 10:04 am
Hi Jim: The only link between Mary Kelly's death scene and the Sickert sketch entitled "He killed his father in a fight", which Ms Cornwell has said in her book, "mirrors Mary Kelly's murder scene" is that both involve violence in a bedroom, and the wooden bedpost looks somewhat like the bedpost in the famous photograph of Mary Jane Kelly on the bed. All the best Chris George
Author: Howard Brown Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 10:05 am
To any poster with access to either the London Times or the Daily Telegraph stories regarding Mrs.Cornwell's stories: Could someone provide a hyperlink for yours truly,as 1.I can't access the Telegraph story because my dumb ass can't find it and 2. The Times story requires my paying for it. Yep,I'm cheap. I would appreciate it very much.......HB
Author: Christopher T George Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 10:11 am
Hi Stewart: Many thanks for pointing us to the articles in today's Times and Daily Telegraph. It would seem that the Times article by Walter Sickert's biographer, Matthew Sturgis, is especially useful in detailing the Sickert experts' belief that the artist was in France at the time of the murders. It would be wonderful if documentary proof could be found of Sickert's stay near Dieppe on the relevant dates. All the best Chris George
Author: Stewart P Evans Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 12:30 pm
Howard, I have posted all that I intend to post on the Melvin Harris/Andy Aliffe saga, which you have read. Any further questions should be addressed to either Melvin Harris or Andy Aliffe. As regards permission for anyone to quote from the Cremers' story, the following is from the rear of the title page of The True Face of Jack the Ripper by Melvin Harris, London, Michael O'Mara Books Limited, 1994:- "By agreement with Peter O'Donnell, the publishing rights in Vittoria Cremers' memoirs are now owned by Melvin Harris. Permission to quote from them will be granted in return for an agreed payment to the NSPCC." The publisher's address is:- Michael O'Mara Books Limited 9 Lion Yard Tremadoc Road London SW4 7NQ I hope that this is of some help to you. Best Wishes, Stewart
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 12:38 pm
Hi Folks, Perhaps more pertinent to Pat Cornwell's motive for suspecting Sickert as the Ripper is Sturgis's explanation of the "fistula" operation. It seems more likely that this operation was on his rectum and not his penus. Ouch! The hospital concerned (St Mark's Hospital) only specialised in rectal surgery! Motive being spare-part surgery? Rosey :-)
Author: Garry Ross Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 01:45 pm
Rosemary, ooh bummer! (pun intended) rectum? 'well it never did them any good' I thankyou...I'll kindly leave the stage now. take care Garry
Author: Christopher T George Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 02:15 pm
Maybe, then, it could be said that Sickert is entering the arena as a Ripper suspect by the rear door?
Author: Jim Jenkinson Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 04:03 pm
That explains more than one operation. The hospital probably made an a**e of it the first time.
Author: Howard Brown Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 06:38 pm
Cornwell's Sickert-as-Ripper is ass believable as life on Uranus. Or my anus,for that matter.
Author: Caroline Morris Monday, 04 November 2002 - 07:55 am
Hi All, Authors of books claiming to have solved the mystery have been accused of possessing one or more of the following unfortunate personality traits: arrogance; self-importance; smugness; greed; over-extravagance; stupidity; ignorance; naivety; gullibility; dishonesty; insincerity; presumption; obsession; over-enthusiasm; wishful thinking - the biggest �sin� to result from any of these being, I would imagine, the accusation of a man who must, on all the given 'evidence', still be presumed innocent. But we know that there can only be one Jack from among all the suspects ever named, and that's assuming Jack has ever been named, which many people doubt, with much justification. All those innocent men, each of whom is believed to be the ripper by substantial numbers of people around the world - each and every name is tainted by association with the ripper murders. Occasionally, as with D�Onston and possibly Hutchinson and Sickert, this association could be said to have been self-inflicted to a degree, if innocently, because of their known interest and/or self-involvement in the murder investigation. Like Rick, I don�t understand such apparent bitterness expressed towards Cornwell, as we all must share in some measure the traits listed above, simply by virtue (!) of being human. I could understand it more if people were as pleased as Punch to see her spend so much of her own money advertising all her shortcomings. But since when have either bitterness or gloating been more attractive or virtuous human characteristics than those displayed by Cornwell? It may take time for it to sink in with the general reading public that there is still no smoking gun. But they�ve been there before and one day it may finally dawn on everyone, including would-be theorists and authors, that the smoking gun is beyond anyone�s reach, and that Mary Kelly was the last person who could have knowingly seen the true face of Jack the Ripper. Love, Caz
Author: Christopher T George Monday, 04 November 2002 - 09:04 am
Hi, Caz: You have written a well reasoned and interesting essay on the situation regarding Patricia Cornwell's book, Portrait of a Killer: Jack the Ripper--Case Closed, and by extension any book that claims to have solved the case. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Best regards Chris George
Author: Jim Jenkinson Monday, 04 November 2002 - 10:37 am
Hi Caz,Chris, Yes, wise words indeed. I'm still puzzling over Sickert painting titles, "What Shall We Do for the Rent", could this be a reference to his own continual financial plight ? He was no business man and always let his work go for the first offer he got.(Including the Camden Town Murder series.) He was broke right up to his death in 1942, and was granted an annuity from the Royal Bounty Fund in 1940 by Winston Churchill. (One of the few people known to have.) His widow still received this after his death. He liked epigrams, so I have decided to compose one. (All by myself). Ahem.... Patricia's book will top the chart But I STILL like Walter's art. Jim
Author: Christopher T George Monday, 04 November 2002 - 11:19 am
Necessary to His Art? He stands in profile, the complete Victorian gentleman, a top hat, a white scarf, cane held behind his back. Was Walter Sickert, the artist, the demon with the bloody plan, the ghoul in the shadows, the destroyer of women, Jack? Was Sickert truly the killer that we conceive? The Whitechapel murders became necessary to his art, the writer Patricia Cornwell would bid us to believe. But did the artist really cut out Mary Kelly's heart? Christopher T. George
Author: David Radka Monday, 04 November 2002 - 11:27 am
Some of the above arguments sound like this to me: "Nobody has ever solved this case. Therefore PC has the right to advance propositions as solution to the case without being back-bitten." I don't think this is necessarily or entirely true. If she wants to advance propositions she subjects herself to an analysis of what she proposes based on critical thinking. If this shows her work to be off the mark, then critics have the right to say so. The above defenses of PC are decidedly post-Whittington-Egan epoch in nature. Basically, a post-W-E defense goes something like this: "As long as a proposed case solution is based on empirical data, then it is justified." Originally, this was intended as an antidote to large numbers of people jumping to all kinds of conclusions using hearsay or any miscellaneous information. Anyone who had a funny uncle, or even who had heard of someone else's funny uncle, proposed a solution. But the problem of the post-W-E epoch is that once the empirical method is justified, it gets every bit as far out of control as had been the jackdaw's nest epoch. Witness Knight, the Maybrick Diary, and now PC herself. All of this was supposedly based on hard empirical data, and all of it is nonsense. With the bath water was also thrown out the baby. Nowadays, not only do we have a pandemonium of nonsensical empirically-based theories, we also have inhibitions on our creativity--on those who might tend to construct a jackdaw's nest to make sense out of the case. David
Author: Stewart P Evans Monday, 04 November 2002 - 11:37 am
Cornwell quote. "He's an evil old man. Boy did you see the, I mean the look in his eyes for a minute there. When his eyes cut off to the right. Just this, cold, sinister look in them and thinking you know even up until probably several years before his death, you can just feel what a self-centred, unfeeling son of a bitch he is." - Patricia Cornwell on a very old Sickert's appearance in a home-movie clip.
Author: Christopher T George Monday, 04 November 2002 - 11:44 am
Hi, Stewart: Perhaps delusional is the word to use to describe Ms. Cornwell at this point? Chris
Author: Ally Monday, 04 November 2002 - 11:57 am
Hiya David, So are you suggesting that in order to solve the case a Ripper author ought to steal the best and shiniest material from other authors in order to construct their case? Hey Stewart, Well it makes perfect sense to me! I mean, mean shifty eyes=Jack the Ripper. I think that is a perfectly sound logical argument and any jury would convict based on that evidence. Cheerio, Ally
Author: Caroline Morris Monday, 04 November 2002 - 12:03 pm
Hi David, All I would say is that it becomes people far more to take the time and effort to respond to someone's theory with constructive criticism, or by quoting the awful old nonsense in it , as does Stewart here very powerfully and concisely, rather than to engage in the kind of bitter-sounding, gloating and cheap remarks we have seen lately aimed at 'Cornball', in response to her own bitter-sounding, gloating and, I suspect, rather more costly remarks that she aims at her own pet suspect. Can't we at least aim to rise above, just for once? If someone can come up with a phrase that sums it up better than 'two or more wrongs don't make a right', I'd be grateful. Love, Caz PS I don't apologise for my cheap and gloating 'awful old nonsense' remark - it was made after a lot of careful thought, having seen the Omnibus prog in which Cornwell came out with the awful old nonsense quoted by Stewart. But I will aim to rise above - from tomorrow - I'm off for cocktails. Cheers all.