Author: Toronto Ripper-Fanciers
Saturday, 14 November 1998 - 03:01 pm |        |
For a long time, four of us met in Toronto to discuss the Ripper case once a month. We started out from the premise that anyone could have committed the murders and looked at everyone--not just the usual suspects--mentioned in police files as any one of them could have been guilty. We also examined the similarities between the Ripper murders and the Yorkshire Ripper murders that took place in the seventies and eighties and were committed by Peter Sutcliffe. In that case, the police had had Sutcliffe through their hands a couple of times, but he was never a serious suspect because he didn't have a Geordie accent. (The cops believed that a tape, since proved not to be relevant, was from the murderer, and that tape came from a NorthEasterner.)
We believed it was possible that the cops were looking for someone specific, probably from a more salubrious part of London. Maybe because they thought 'he's doing it and getting away with it so he must be intelligent so he can't be a working class man.'
On reviewing the files, one person jumped out at us. John (or James) McCarthy who was Kelly's landlord. Apparently Kelly died owing him considerable back rent, but he explained this away to the police--as you know--and they accepted his explanation at face value. When we looked closely at him we began to think he would be a very viable suspect indeed. First of all, he could have gotten into and out of Kelly's room without either going into Millers Court proper or into Dorset Street. Secondly we know from the inquest evidence of Lizzie Prater that he was present in his shop at 1.30 on the morning of Kelly's death and that Kelly called out to him and said 'If Jack should come, tell him I've gone in...' She told Prater Jack was a soldier she knew. Thirdly, he told his factotum Boyer to go and see if he could get any rent from Kelly on the morning after the murder, even though Kelly's room was just beside his and if he was that concerned, he could have gone himself. Fourthly, when the police came to try and get into Kelly's room they found the door was locked--not simply secured by the bolt that Kelly had used since she lost her key. They asked McCarthy to open the door and he broke it down. He was her landlord, don't you think he would have had a key? We believe he didn't want to admit to having that key around about then!
Now all this could point to McCarthy being a good candidate for Kelly's murder and Kelly's alone. And as you will have noticed, she does break the victim pattern in just about every way. So perhaps she was a copy-cat victim. On the other hand, the pattern of injuries are almost identical to other documented Ripper victims, although there seems to be an essence of personal vendetta to this killing that we don't get from the others. Is it possible that Kelly saw something after the Eddowes killing that tipped her off and so she attempted to blackmail McCarthy? If this scenario, which is purely speculative, works out, we don't think for a minute Kelly thought McCarthy actually was the Ripper, but thought he wouldn't want the police nosing about his business. Our guess is that McCarthy killed Kelly as McCarthy, not as the Whitechapel Murderer. And without her he probably would have stopped after Eddowes.
We wish we could report that McCarthy died soon afterwards, or even moved away. But he was still at the same location in 1890. Still, we think he's definitely worth a look.
Also, have you noticed the suspiciously detailed eye-witness description of the murderer given by the man Hutchinson?? It's so closely observed that a lot of people I know wonder whether he could be the murderer. I doubt it. But I wonder if someone else put him up to it? Someone who looked exactly unlike that description! Everyone believes that the laundress Sarah Lewis corroborates Hutchinson at Kelly's inquest. But in fact Hutchinson came to the police after the inquest was over. His evidence corroborates hers, and could have been made up to fit it after the fact. |
Author: Dr. Frederick Walker
Saturday, 14 November 1998 - 03:02 pm | |
| Kevin O'Donnell, in The Jack the Ripper Whitechapel Murders, argues that John McCarthy was Mary Kelly's uncle. This, if true, would explain why she lived with his family rent free -- perhaps on more than one occassion. It would also explain why he was never seriously considered a suspect. |
Author: EveKaye
Monday, 08 February 1999 - 12:11 pm | |
It's been a while since I visited this board but thanks to the Casebook we nowknow more about McCarthy than before (see Paul Daniel's article in Dissertations.) In reply to the above post there is no evidence whatsoever that McCarthy and Kelly were related. And there is no suggestion that McCarthy let Kelly live 'rent-free'. If there where he wouldn't be admitting to her having owed him any backrent would he? And he certainly wouldn't have sent Boyer round to collect said backrent on the morning of the murders.
One thing about this does strike me as interesting. JtR seemed to like to display his work. I've always thought that's why he murdered his victims in public places so that they were found almost immediately. However Kelly was murdered--and very definitely displayed--in a room. Amazing that McCarthy chooses that morning of all mornings to tell Boyer to look in on her! |
Author: Calogridis
Tuesday, 02 November 1999 - 01:34 pm | |
Howdy All,
Thought I might try to revive this board since it has some interesting ideas not altogether without merit.
Toronto brings up the plausibility of Jack McCarthy having easy access to Mary's room from the inside (back of his shop). Likewise, "Indian Harry" Thomas Bowyer would also have this access as McCarthy's assistant. Do we know much about him or when he died? Working with Mccarthy's "rents", he would have had the access and may have been Big Mac's pimp of choice. From my readings, Bowyer strikes me as a shadowy figure. Nonetheless, I agree with the assessment that the two hitting up Mary for the backrent on that morning is a strange coincidence. Perhaps one or the other brought up the subject to precipitate the discovery of the body.
Cheers.....Mike |
Author: Claudia
Wednesday, 03 November 1999 - 05:03 am | |
Hi Mike,
You said in your original post:
Secondly we know from the inquest evidence of Lizzie Prater that he was present in his shop at 1.30 on the morning of Kelly's death and that Kelly called out to him and said 'If Jack should come, tell him I've gone in...' She told Prater Jack was a soldier she knew.
I'd be interested to know what your source material is for this quote.
Regards and thanks,
Claudia |
Author: Calogridis
Wednesday, 03 November 1999 - 06:12 pm | |
Howdy Claudia,
That original posting came from Toronto, not myself. So I can't comment on it other than he says it was Prater's inquest testimony (and thus can probably be verified).
Cheers......Mike |
Author: Bob_C
Thursday, 04 November 1999 - 08:51 am | |
Hi all,
The only probable reason, I think, that Thomas Bowyer came that day (we don't know how often he was sent to her before, it could have even been daily) was because Mary Kelly had said that she wanted to go to the Lord Mayor's Show, which took place on that day.
Owing what she did, it was only human when MaCarthy sent Bowyer to try to collect before she could leave for the show, where she would have been presumed to have frittered her money away. I admit that I have had MaCarthy as a suspect 'Brothel Manager', in the past. He could have been, but witnesses testify having gone into his shop for a chat, and no-one, as far as I know, testified anything negative about him, so he must have been at least respected.
I have often heard about Bowyer being AKA India Harry, but where is this documented?
Best regards,
Bob |
Author: Calogridis
Thursday, 04 November 1999 - 06:19 pm | |
Howdy Bob,
Reading Sugden and Rumbelow's books, I realized McCarthy always called Thomas Bowyer "Harry". Somewhere else, maybe A-Z, I read Bowyer was called "India Harry" (or "Indian Harry") because he was a veteran of the Indian War. Makes one wonder a bit about Harry, eh what? It's a three-pipe problem.
Cheers......Mike |
Author: Bob_C
Friday, 05 November 1999 - 03:10 am | |
Hi Mike,
Yep, my thoughts too. On top of that a contemporary(Who?..I'm not there where I can check it at the moment) referred to him as a 'boy' at his arrival at the station to announce Kelly's murder. OK, that term can be meant in the sense 'messenger boy' but I do wonder why that could be applied to an army veteran.
I have heard, having just used the term 'OK', of it's supposed origin. In Fords at Detroit, there was once a quality inspector who was pretty through in his checks on the assembly line. A unit had to be good to get past him. Each time he'd accepted a vehicle, he indicated that it was passed by writing his initials on it. His name? Oswald Krause.
Now let'em come..
Best regards,
Bob |
Author: Roger Barber
Friday, 12 November 1999 - 01:29 pm | |
How can we take accept anyone as a serious suspect when they were carrying on normal lives for years after the murders. The Kelly murder was the work of someone whose brain had given way.
He was either locked up or committed suicide.
This didn't happen to McCarthy, Barnett, or Lewis Carroll!! |
Author: Leanne
Saturday, 13 November 1999 - 04:06 am | |
Agent of the FBI John E. Douglas, composed a phsychological profile of JTR, which includes:
'Jack the Ripper WOULD NOT have committed suicide after his last homicide. General crimes such as these, cease because the perpetrator has come close to being identified, has been interviewed by the police, or has been arrested for some other offence. We would be surprised if Jack the Ripper suddenly stopped killing, except for one of these reasons.'
Thankyou,
LEANNE! |
Author: Neal Shelden
Tuesday, 08 January 2002 - 03:04 pm | |
I am interested in the connection between Kay Kendall and John McCarthy mentioned elsewhere on the boards, as I am tracing details about him.
I saw a book at my local library recently about Kay's husband Rex Harrison (by Roy Moseley,1987) that said that Kay Kendall the actress was the daughter of Terry and Gladys Kendall.Terry was the son of music hall performer Marie Kendall and Stephen McCarthy the surname Kendall was used in preference to McCarthy by Marie and Terry. Kay's full name was 'Kay Justine Kendall McCarthy'. But how can John McCarthy be Kay Kendall's great grandfather if her grandfather was Stephen McCarthy a CANADIAN? I haven't found a son of John McCarthy.
As for the Stephen O'Donnell claim that was mentioned in a previous post that John McCarthy was possibly the uncle of Mary Jane Kelly, I think it's unlikely. I am prepared to contemplate some sort of family connection between them though, even as distant relations? But more research needs to be done yet.
Has anyone ever traced any family history details about John McCarthy other than what is already known from the 1881 and 1891 census? |
Author: Neal Shelden
Thursday, 10 January 2002 - 07:08 pm | |
Has anyone ever found a previous marriage for John McCarthy before the wife Elizabeth he has on the 1881 census?
Did he have a previous wife that died?
And has anyone found proof of a birth date for John McCarthy for 1851 (or around that date) in Dieppe, France?
There are McCarthy's living at 4 Gowers Walk, Whitechapel on the 1881 census index, and I am wondering whether they were his sons from a previous marriage? But if he was born in France in 1851 then that would not be possible?
Thanks. |
Author: Neal Shelden
Thursday, 17 January 2002 - 03:13 pm | |
The will of John McCarthy proves that his son was the entertainer Steve McCarthy, who was the grandfather of the actress Kay Kendall.
Steve's real name was 'John Joseph McCarthy' and he was the executor of his father's will in 1934.
John McCarthy who lived at 10 Tregothnan Road, Clapham, described as a 'Lodging house keeper' died on 16th June 1934. Son, John Joseph McCarthy is described as a 'Retired Music Hall Artist', known on the stage as 'Steve McCarthy'.
McCarthy's daughters were also mentioned. Margaret Williams, Elizabeth Maguire, Nan Glen, Nellie McCarthy, Rose McCarthy, and sister-in-law Mrs A.McCarthy (probably widow of Daniel McCarthy?), and Grandson Shaun McCarthy.
I am interested in Mrs Margaret Williams in particular, because at the time of Mary Jane Kelly's murder, it was reported that she knew a woman named 'Elizabeth Williams'. Maybe she was the sister of Margaret's husband?
John McCarthy signed the will, and his son (Steve)signed as the executor 'J.J.McCarthy'. |
Author: david rhea
Thursday, 17 January 2002 - 06:47 pm | |
| Neal; This has probably already been answered . How much property was McCarthy the landlord? Was it His property or someone elses? How much of Miller's Court was rented.If he got all of his rent from the property just how much per week would that be? |
Author: david rhea
Thursday, 17 January 2002 - 06:56 pm | |
| Is this for sure the John McCarthy of Ripper fame? If so then of what did his estate consist? |
Author: david rhea
Thursday, 17 January 2002 - 07:28 pm | |
| Ivor;I can't find out much about V.Cremers other than she was Aleister Crowley's secretary for a time, and that she and Stevenson both had the hots for Mabel Collins.Can you direct me to a place for further information? Also the statement that Stevenson was converted by V. Woodhull and later studied and wrote "The Patristic Gospels. "Why did Stevenson find this a rewarding area of study? What are the patristic gospels? With his hip wounds just how sexual was Stevenson.Did he and Collins practice mystical sex which may not have been physical(like having sex with angels) |
Author: david rhea
Thursday, 17 January 2002 - 07:48 pm | |
| Sorry;;posted the above in the wrong place. |
Author: Neal Shelden
Friday, 18 January 2002 - 03:34 pm | |
David,
I think that in 1888 McCarthy was only the landlord of Millers Court, and that all of the rooms were rented?
His estate in 1934 amounted to £15,667 13s 9d, so he wasn't short of a few pounds. Andy Aliffe informed me that he had a financial interest in the South London Music Hall. |
Author: Jack Traisson
Saturday, 23 February 2002 - 02:28 am | |
Hello All,
I have a question that someone may know the answer to. I have already asked Neal Shelden, Andy Aliffe, and I believe Stewart P. Evans as well.
Was John McCarhy still the landlord of Miller's Court when it was demolished in 1928 to make room for the Spitalfields Market expansion? I've been looking into the Kitty Ronan murder at 20 Miller's Court in 1909 and the newspapers name him as still being the landlord at this time. I am wondering how long he carried on in this capacity.
I hope someone can help.
Cheers,
John |
Author: The Viper
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 05:41 am | |
Jack,
John McCarthy is listed in the 1928 edition of Kelly's Directory as the proprietor of 30 Duval (formerly Dorset) Street, a lodging house. That gives him business links with the area in the late summer or autumn of 1927. No businesses located on the northern side of Duval Street are listed in the 1929 edition of Kelly's, suggesting that the properties had been demolished to make way for the extended Spitalfields Market. A couple of addresses were still listed on the southern side of the street, but neither of them had any link to McCarthy.
Regards, V. |
Author: Jack Traisson
Friday, 12 April 2002 - 01:23 am | |
Many thanks, Viper.
It is one of those questions I wanted answering for some time. In the world of JtR it isn't an important point perhaps, but significant to my current research.
Thanks also for Magpie's email. He doesn't have the articles I need either. He is looking for them also because he gets requests for them. I have a lead now (from a different source) and will keep in touch through email.
One more question: Did John McCarthy's brother, Daniel, who bought a shop at No. 36 Dorset Street in 1890, still have any holdings in the street (Duval) in 1909?
Sorry to keep asking you, Viper, but you are a treasure chest of useful information.
All the best,
John |
Author: The Viper
Friday, 12 April 2002 - 10:32 am | |
According to the inscription on the McCarthy family grave, Daniel McCarthy, brother of John, died on 29th August 1895, aged 33.
Regards, V. |
Author: Helen Heller
Sunday, 24 November 2002 - 08:21 pm | |
| According to the 1901 Census, there was a Patrick McCarthy, aged 36, a shopkeeper at 7 Dorset Street. Could have been a relation. I'm interested in McCarthy still. Especially as another prostitute was murdered in Lizzie Prater's old quarters--perp never found. |
Author: anthony pearson
Friday, 10 January 2003 - 07:23 pm | |
Helen and Company, Hello
I think if you read Charles Booth's notebooks on London labour and the poor, collated shortly after the Whitechapel murders (and available on line), you will come across several references to your Jack McCarthy and his trade in human misery.
Set against the backdrop of economic depression in London, the chronic overcrowding in Whitechapel, the closing down of two hundred brothels (starting in 1887 and which put thousands of women on the street) and the ongoing obscene hiking of lodging house rents in the East End to take advantage of a 'supply and demand' situation, Jack can be seen as a thoroughly nasty individual. Even the police describe him as 'notorious' as he seems eventually to have bought up almost every property in Dorset Street and other run down areas close by.
Dorset Street is described as being occupied by vicious, semi-criminals, a sink of Thieves, prostitutes and bullies, with the very worst vice in London. It takes little imagination to see how he would run his business (with an army of 'Bill Sykes' type thugs as rent collectors and ponces).
I always wondered (given the awful weather of 1888 and all the above factors) whether the business of prostitution was so difficult that Jack would have to constantly pursue and threaten the multitude of lodgers who defaulted on their rent . . . especially the older drabs. The obvious way to get them to work harder for their rent and to drive them back to his slumland hovels was to . . .
More later
Cheers . . . T.P. |
