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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through January 6, 2000
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects:
Contemporary Suspects [ 1888 - 1910 ]:
Kosminski, Aaron:
Archive through January 6, 2000
Author: Katya Z
Saturday, 28 August 1999 - 10:24 pm |        | | Could someone explain to me in simple language Martin Fido's theory regarding the Kosminski/Cohen mix-up? Also, David Cohen seems to have been a raving lunatic. How does this description accommodate the contemporary accounts of witnesses who saw the victims talking to suave, witty "gents"? (ex. "You would say anything but your prayers"; stranger whipping out his red handkerchief for Mary Kelly) Most twentieth-century serial killers lure their prey through cunning, then melt into their surroundings. As much as I respect Fido's rationale for naming his suspect, I need to understand how the discrepancy between Cohen and the "gents" the witnesses saw can be resolved. |
Author: Julian
Sunday, 29 August 1999 - 09:03 pm | | G'day dclydew,
Issac was a short fella of average height, he sort of looked Jewish with an asian appearance and his dark skin came from a negro relative. No-ones sure where the red hair came from but....
Hope that helps.
Jules |
Author: Caz
Tuesday, 31 August 1999 - 04:52 am | | Hi Katya,
I agree with you about serial killers tending to use cunning to a)lure their victims into a false sense of security, then b)re-appear as sane respectable members of society between murders. I don't believe anyone who came into contact with Jack in everyday life would have thought him insane enough to be hauled off to a lunatic asylum. Although he was undoubtably as mad as a hatter, I think he was controlled and clever enough not to allow his murderous agenda to be put at risk by any conspicuously mad behaviour.
Do we know if any convicted serial killers have ever shown the classic signs of insanity which would have got them confined to a lunatic asylum in 1888? And do these ones escape the death penalty if they are declared insane?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Sara
Tuesday, 31 August 1999 - 06:31 am | | Caz - I've been reading a bit in the serial killer /profiling genre lately, and you've got quite a point (and not on the top of your head)
It seems while many serial killers had gotten into trouble with the law, or come under the scrutiny of mental health care officials, many of them function quite well - head down, quirks and all.
I think your statement "controlled" suits very well - with SK's giving the insanity of their actions full rein during the actual crime.
IMHO, I haven't heard of "any convicted SK's showing the classic signs of ....in 1888" I'm sure many would wish they would be declared insane to be spared the death sentence...
Perhaps someone else might have an example - Must run, ATB,
Sara |
Author: Katya Z
Tuesday, 31 August 1999 - 12:10 pm | | Dear Caz,
I've always felt that Kosminski would be the most logical suspect if he hadn't been psychotic. A psychotic doesn't turn errant behavior on and off at will. A psychopath does. Ted Bundy, for example, was a charmer when he wanted to be and a fiend when alone with his victims.
Among modern serial killers, Henry Lee Lucas, currently imprisoned in Texas, is a good example of a criminal who probably would have been hanged back in Victorian London, but whose execution was commuted to a life sentence by Governor George W. Bush because of Lucas's mental instability. I can't think of any twentieth-century serial killers who would have been committed to an asylum in 1888. But then most of them have exhibited the classic signs of psychopathy rather than psychosis. A psychotic really doesn't have his act together well enough to sustain a series of murders; he'd most likely be caught after killing once.
Jack the Ripper wasn't psychotic, but perhaps he was clever enough, when caught, if he was caught, to put on a mask of psychosis.
Love,
Katya |
Author: D. Radka
Tuesday, 31 August 1999 - 05:51 pm | | Katya,
You're right--they would have hung ol' Henry up by his ba**s in Victorian England. As for his mental state, the quote I most recall that says it all went something like:
"I picked up this hyar gal thum hitchin' outside-a Lubbock. We's drivin' up US 41 when I become to a' feelin' her ti**ies."
Now that's what I call crazy. Hank's got his left hand on the wheel as he silently reaches out his right and starts "feelin' her ti**ies." What a creep.
David |
Author: Caz
Wednesday, 01 September 1999 - 01:54 am | | Hi All,
Thanks David. You just provided my first chuckle of the day :-)
And thanks Katya for explaining about psycopaths and psychotics. I would tend to put Jack in the Ted Bundy school of psycopaths myself. A bit of a sociopath too I shouldn't wonder. Only concerned with his own immediate needs and totally without sympathy for anyone else's. Maybe even unaware that other people have any needs. A real case of 'I'm all right Jack'. That would tend to let off any doctors in our house of suspects. As Edana commented recently, no bedside manner!
Trouble is, we need as many disciplines on board as possible as we tackle each suspect. However thorough the historical researchers are, however talented the writers, we also surely need the detectives, the criminal psychiatrists and the medical historians on hand to help us decide which suspects would have been eliminated at first sight if we knew then what we know now.
If Jack was indeed a nobody, a faceless killer who intended never to be caught, I really don't think a known psychotic patient fits the bill. And the mad doctor theory doesn't do much for me either I'm afraid.
Love,
Caz |
Author: SKeenan
Wednesday, 03 November 1999 - 08:41 am | | Hello everyall-
I haven't written here in a while but here's another go. I agree that JtR could not have been noticeably deranged, but that doesn't automatically eliminate this Polish Jew. As Mr. Begg was kind enough to enlighten me last time, let's remember that there is no actual proof that Aaron Kosminski was a mouth-foamer in 1888. Not until 1890 did he become verifiable in his lunacy. Just a thought.
Go Leafs!
SKeenan |
Author: Ron Taylor
Monday, 03 January 2000 - 03:05 pm | | Police Seaside Home
Has this ever been properly identified. I've seen references to "probably Brighton" and to "Clarendon House"
I've just come across (in a totally different context) a "Police Seaside Home" in Hove
Wondering if that could be it. Interestingly at one stage a Met Police Sergeant retired with ill health. Ran this home for 3 years then rejoined the Met. |
Author: Ron Taylor
Monday, 03 January 2000 - 03:30 pm | | Kosminski 1881 Census
I aplogise if this has been posted before but I thought the 1881 Census might give somebody some useful info.
In the entire 1881 UK Census these were the only entries:
KOSMINSKI, Martin Head Pol Lond
KOSMINSKI, Augusta Wife Lond Lond
KOSMINSKI, Samuel Bro Pol Lond
KOSMINSKI, Charles Son Lond Lond
KOSMINSKI, Tessie Dau Lond Lond
KOSMINSKI, Katie Dau Lond Lond
The first location mentioned is place of birth, second is location at census.
Detailsare:
Dwelling: 5 Loraine Road
Census Place: Islington, London, Middlesex, England
Source: FHL Film 1341058 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 0269 Folio 13 Page 19
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Martin KOSMINSKI M 36 M Kalisch Nat Brit Subject, Poland
Rel: Head
Occ: Wholesale Furrier
Augusta KOSMINSKI M 29 F Aldgate, Middlesex, England
Rel: Wife
Charles KOSMINSKI U 8 M Nr North Road, Middlesex, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Tessie KOSMINSKI 6 F Nr North Road, Middlesex, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Katie KOSMINSKI 4 F Nr North Road, Middlesex, England
Rel: Daur
Samuel KOSMINSKI U 25 M Kalisch, Poland
Rel: Brother
Occ: Furrier
Emily FOWLER U 39 F Stafford, England
Rel: Servant
Occ: Domestic
There was also a Kosminskia family:
Dwelling: St Georges St
Census Place: Wapping, London, Middlesex, England
Source: FHL Film 1341101 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 0461 Folio 102 Page 28
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Philip KOSMINSKIA M 26 M Poland, Russia
Rel: Head
Occ: Journeyman Bootmaker
Dinah KOSMINSKIA M 28 F Poland, Russia
Rel: Wife
Moris KOSMINSKIA 3 M Wapping, Middlesex, England
Rel: Son
Leah KOSMINSKIA 10 m F Wapping, Middlesex, England
Rel: Dau
Although in the warren of rooming houses in the East End itwas by no means unusual for people to be missed in the census.
I also checked for all names beginning KOSM and KOZM to eliminate spelling/transcription erros. Did not throw up any more names |
Author: Ron Taylor
Monday, 03 January 2000 - 03:34 pm | | Kosminski 1881 Census
I aplogise if this has been posted before but I thought the 1881 Census might give somebody some useful info.
In the entire 1881 UK Census these were the only entries:
KOSMINSKI, Martin Head Pol Lond
KOSMINSKI, Augusta Wife Lond Lond
KOSMINSKI, Samuel Bro Pol Lond
KOSMINSKI, Charles Son Lond Lond
KOSMINSKI, Tessie Dau Lond Lond
KOSMINSKI, Katie Dau Lond Lond
The first location mentioned is place of birth, second is location at census.
Detailsare:
Dwelling: 5 Loraine Road
Census Place: Islington, London, Middlesex, England
Source: FHL Film 1341058 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 0269 Folio 13 Page 19
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Martin KOSMINSKI M 36 M Kalisch Nat Brit Subject, Poland
Rel: Head
Occ: Wholesale Furrier
Augusta KOSMINSKI M 29 F Aldgate, Middlesex, England
Rel: Wife
Charles KOSMINSKI U 8 M Nr North Road, Middlesex, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Tessie KOSMINSKI 6 F Nr North Road, Middlesex, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Katie KOSMINSKI 4 F Nr North Road, Middlesex, England
Rel: Daur
Samuel KOSMINSKI U 25 M Kalisch, Poland
Rel: Brother
Occ: Furrier
Emily FOWLER U 39 F Stafford, England
Rel: Servant
Occ: Domestic
There was also a Kosminskia family:
Dwelling: St Georges St
Census Place: Wapping, London, Middlesex, England
Source: FHL Film 1341101 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 0461 Folio 102 Page 28
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Philip KOSMINSKIA M 26 M Poland, Russia
Rel: Head
Occ: Journeyman Bootmaker
Dinah KOSMINSKIA M 28 F Poland, Russia
Rel: Wife
Moris KOSMINSKIA 3 M Wapping, Middlesex, England
Rel: Son
Leah KOSMINSKIA 10 m F Wapping, Middlesex, England
Rel: Dau
Although in the warren of rooming houses in the East End itwas by no means unusual for people to be missed in the census.
I also checked for all names beginning KOSM and KOZM to eliminate spelling/transcription erros. Did not throw up any more names |
Author: Melanie Johnson
Tuesday, 04 January 2000 - 11:22 am | | Hi everyone.
I am new to the board, and find the suspect area of this case especially fascinating. However, I have to agree with Sugden in saying that Kosminski is not a good match for Jack.
According to Sugden, Kosminski was described at Colney Hatch as "indolent and apathetic." Only one entry ever describes violence, and that was in what, ten years' time? Plus, there is no evidence that Kosminski was ever cruel to women, aside from one incident (which may have been apocryphal) regarding a knife threat. Begg also disputes the truth of this.
My most serious objection, however, is Sir Robert Anderson's assertion that he was identified in 1895. I'm sure you've been over all this before here, but bear with me. =) I just do not believe that Lawende (who the witness most likely was) could have made a supposedly "cast-iron identification" of the Ripper nearly five years after he saw him fleetingly, in a dark street. It doesn't add up.
Just airing my thoughts!
Mel |
Author: Ron Taylor
Tuesday, 04 January 2000 - 12:17 pm | | I agree Kosminski is unlikely.
But I think (I forget my source for this memory) that the identification at the Police Seaside Home was in 1890 not 1895.
By the way if that Home was in Clarendon Villas as indicated then the location was Hove not Brighton as most commentators assert. |
Author: Melanie Johnson
Tuesday, 04 January 2000 - 01:55 pm | | Ron, you're right. It was 1890. But the fact still remains. =)
Mel |
Author: Ron Taylor
Tuesday, 04 January 2000 - 02:42 pm | | Mel,
You are absolutely correct - the fact still remains.
But, one interesting thing happened. The exact location of the "Police Seaside Home" was never established. Purely by chance in some other research I found it - in Hove not Brighton.
I gather the local library and local newspaper have some clippings on it.
In fact it was in use as a convalescent home until quite recently.
When I am in the UK in March I am going down to Hove.
It is very likely that descendants of some people who worked there in the 1890s are still around. I am going to get the 1891 Census for it to try to track them down.
It is not impossible that stories about the identification were passed on orally.
I know that happened in my own family when my G-Grandmother lived very near where one unsuccesful attack by JtR allegedly took place (in the Minories near the Tower) She talked about that.
Additionally, a friend in England, is looking up some references to the Home in the Police Review.
The only reason I can see for taking Kosminski to the home is if a potential witness was already there as a patient. The 1891 Census may throw some light on that if he was still there.
I agree totally with your conclusions re Kosminski but it would be interesting to see if we can discover anything new about the identification.
Isn't this fun!!!!! |
Author: Ron Taylor
Wednesday, 05 January 2000 - 01:15 pm | | Mainly for Mel,
Nothing earth shattering.
But have located a photograph of the "Police Seaside Home"
Also found out Sir Robert Anderson was Chairman of the Cttee that ran the place, so I'm pretty sure we have definitely identified it.
Now I'll do the searches I referred to before.
BTW My EMail address is rontay@bc.sympatico.ca |
Author: D. Radka
Wednesday, 05 January 2000 - 11:39 pm | | Ron,
This bit about Anderson being the Committee Chairman of the Seaside Home is intriguing. It would mean getting Kosminski in there for identification purposes would be easy at that end due to Anderson's influence, whereas it would be difficult, somehow therefore, only at the other end (thinking of what Swanson wrote.) Please post more about this. Where are you getting your information? What are Anderson's dates as Committee Chair? What were his duties and responsibilities in the position? It would be great if you could post that picture as well. Thanks for your contributions.
Hmmmmm.....
David |
Author: Ron Taylor
Thursday, 06 January 2000 - 01:04 am | | David,
Source for this was the Police Review.
Yes I will post the picture when I get it.
I indicated to Mel the other work I will be doing.
I agree it clears up one or two little mysteries.
Will keep you posted |
Author: Melanie Johnson
Thursday, 06 January 2000 - 11:20 am | | Interesting thought about Anderson. He really seems to have been hard-pressed to identify Kosminski as the Ripper. According to Swanson(quoted in Sugden), Lawende refused to testify against Kosminski because "the suspect was also a Jew and also because his evidence would convict the suspect, and witness would be the means of murderer being hanged which he did not wish to be left on his mind." In other words, that Lawende refused to convict because they were both Jews. But Sugden makes the point that again, how could Lawende make a "cast-iron identification" two years after he saw the man for maybe ten seconds, when even Lawende admitted he would not recognize him again? I wonder sometimes if there's more to be explored here. Anderson is too anxious to convict, and the knowledge that the Seaside Home was one of his investments (for lack of a better word), just puts it over the edge. I don't know if we're seeing all that meets the eye here.
Mel |
Author: Caz
Thursday, 06 January 2000 - 11:35 am | | Also (excuse me for butting in here), if Kosminski was a confirmed lunatic, he would not have hung, so no need for the witness to be quite so conscience-stricken surely? Mind you, if such an identification could have secured a conviction by itself, it all seems a highly unsatisfactory state of affairs IMHO.
Love,
Caz |
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