Archive through 09 January 2002

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Archive through 09 January 2002

Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects: Later Suspects [ 1910 - Present ]: Hutchinson, George (British): Archive through 09 January 2002

Author: Michael Lyden Thursday, 04 January 2001 - 10:48 am
Hello Bob Hinton, I have just read your last post with great interest.The obvious question that arises is of course, after taking Hutchisons statement, why didn't the police arrange for Sarah Lewis to identify him? Infuriatingly though, Hutchinson could have been forced to come forward after reading about Lewis' statement simply to clear himself.He could have quite innocently been hanging round the area looking for some "horizontal refreshment". Regards, Mick Lyden
Author: Kevin Braun Wednesday, 26 September 2001 - 10:45 am
Mr. Hinton, Wouldn't this be a good time to present the promised new material on Hutchinson? Take care, Kevin
Author: Tom Wescott Wednesday, 26 September 2001 - 11:37 am
Bob & Kevin, Promised new material on Hutchinson? Did I miss something? If there is any, I'd love to hear/see it! Also, Bob, I wanted to get your take on the 'George Hutchinson' depicted by Reg Hutchinson in Melvyn Fairclough's book. Is he the real deal or a different Hutchinson altogether? Yours truly, Tom Wescott
Author: Kevin Braun Wednesday, 26 September 2001 - 01:37 pm
Tom and Bob, In my opinion, From Hell the book is a great read. I rate it higher then Casebook. On Jan. 3, 2001, on this board, Bob Hinton .... "I have dug up a lot more information about Hutchinson since my book came out and as soon as I get the time I will post it on the boards". Maybe I should have said "information", instead of "material". Nevertheless Bob, give us some time. Take care, Kevin
Author: Bob Hinton Wednesday, 26 September 2001 - 03:07 pm
Dear Everyone, Kevin you're absolutely right I really must get down to sorting out this information. Just lately I seem to have been trying to fit twenty six hours into every day. The last two months has gone like this. Finish research on Welsh Murders - start typing new book. Son has accident in car - son ok car total write off. Wife has accident in car - wife ok car and cow total write off. Go away on holiday for two weeks. Return from holiday start looking for new car. Monday this week. Start at local uni. Wednesday Pick up new car. Thursday Collect item for conference. Friday Go to Bournemouth. I promise I will make time in the near future. all the best Bob Hinton
Author: Christopher T George Wednesday, 26 September 2001 - 03:45 pm
Hi, Bob: I plan to bring my copy of your book to Bournemouth and would like your autograph. Now let me try to find the book in the computer room. . . Best regards Chris George
Author: Kevin Braun Wednesday, 26 September 2001 - 04:01 pm
Bob, I know the feeling. I hope everything works out. Thanks for responding! Take care, Kevin
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia Wednesday, 26 September 2001 - 09:42 pm
Bob - "Car and COW total write off"? And I thought we had problems with wild turkeys here in the great suburban outback of Massachusetts. Apparently life in Wales is more dangerous than you'd think. . . Glad to hear you'll be at Bournemouth; I look forward to meeting you!
Author: Bob Hinton Thursday, 27 September 2001 - 02:43 am
Dear Chris Michael, You don't know the half of it. When you have to drive round trying to avoid swarms of rugby playing ex miners who insist on ambushing you with their close harmony singing you know what hell is! I look forward to meeting you and everyone else at the conference. all the very best Bob Hinton
Author: Monty Thursday, 27 September 2001 - 08:35 am
Bob, "car and cow total write off"?!?! I thought you said that the wife was ok? (Im joking Mrs Hinton). Looking forward to hearing about the George Hutchinson info so HURRY UP,I can't wait.
Author: Tom Wescott Friday, 28 September 2001 - 12:16 am
OUCH!
Author: Harry Mann Sunday, 14 October 2001 - 05:25 am
Poor old George seems to have been disregarded of late,so I'll add a couple of items under his name which may draw some comments. First off,an obsevation on prostitutes in general,gained I might add,by working in an environment where they were fairly numerous,and by nature of the duties I performed, having personel contact with them.For the curious my workplace was a major seaport. Allowing for the different personalities,and they were as diverse as any body of women can be,they all had one specific interest,payment for the services they provided.To this end they universaly demanded money up front,or as one once put it,no pay no play. With that in mind,observe the actions of Kelly.She asks Hutchinson for money,and receiving none,goes a little further and meets a second male,all the while watched by George.No money is shown,in fact very little is said or done,yet she unhesitantly takes this person to her room.Curious is'nt it,if money was her prime objective. The second observation is what happened to the red kerchiek she was given.It isn't listed as being in her room,perhaps it too was burnt,but I would have expected it to be on the chair with her other clothes.Would the murderer,after the things he did in that room,be of a mind to take that small item. Just one more obsevation,it seems to be the practice of such women as the ripper killed,to have some sort of secure hidden place where they secreted their money,some in the clothing they wear.I cant remember any money being found on the victims of Whitechapel,or in Kelly's room. A note on the above.It is interesting to obseve that one of Sutcliffe's victims,Jean Jordan,had the five pound service fee in a secret pocket of her handbag. Regards H.Mann.
Author: graziano Sunday, 14 October 2001 - 07:51 am
Hello Harry, no time now to develop. In my point of view,debatable but simply wonderful. Big point on the handkerchief. Big point about the secret pocket (see Annie Chapman). I'll come back asap. Bye. Graziano. P.S.: better to explain your duties deeper or the boards could have some thoughts about your contacts with the ladies. Was the seaport in Europe ?
Author: Arfa Kidney Sunday, 14 October 2001 - 09:50 am
Harry, I agree with Graziano.You have made some good observations,particularly concerning the red handkerchief.This is exactly the type of thing that for me, makes reading these message boards worthwhile. I eagerly await the results of Bob Hintons latest research into Hutchinson. Regards, Mick.
Author: Monty Sunday, 14 October 2001 - 10:05 am
Harry, Top spot. Very interesting points. Arfa, Your are so right mate, so right. Monty
Author: Grailfinder Sunday, 14 October 2001 - 10:50 am
Hi Guys Re the missing handkerchief. How can we be sure it was missing? My own thoughts on the Hankie have always been along these lines; Firstly, why do you think Jack/Punter gave it to her? I read somewhere that as a crude form of Contraception the silk Hankie has been used for centuries, so if this was the case with MJK and with the item in question being RED, then with all the bloodstained sheets and underclothes that MJK was wearing it would be well camouflaged and may not have been found until later, and after the list of MJK's found/clothing was made? Having said that, I wonder what Jack used to carry away her Heart! Cheers GF
Author: Tom Wescott Sunday, 14 October 2001 - 10:37 pm
Harry, Awesome points. I mean that. If you don't mind, I'll use them in my research work. Grailfinder, You make a good point as well. And let's not forget that the police were not particularly thorough in their cataloging of crime scenes. Unless it screamed 'CLUE!' they didn't give much thought to it. Yours truly, Tom Wescott
Author: Harry Mann Monday, 15 October 2001 - 06:06 am
Hello altogether, Thanks for the support given on the comments I entered above.I believe there must be many more such instances scattered throughout the Ripper story.It took me a long time to grasp that there might be significance in the points I made,and it is only my opinion that there might be,but perhaps I have had too much of a fixation on Hutchinson. Grailfinder,according to Hutchinson,the male she is said to have met gave it to Kelly as they stood for a moment outside Millers Court.She told him she had lost hers.While it may have been overlooked,and I accept the fact it may have been,such an item I would have expexted to be placed on the chair with her other clothing.It would be extraordinary to expect the killer to have placed her clothing thus,so it is most probable that Kelly did. One other small point,a mans handkerchief,in those times at least was distinctively much larger than a womans,and would draw attention had it been found in her room.Also it would have supported Hutchinson's story.Of course it might have been used to carry the heart away. Tom,you may use anything I write. Graziano,I was just a lowly Public Servant in Australia.As to my personnel association,I'll let you in on a little secret.I did know one professionly.I was seventeen years old,the second world war was on,and I went to visit a wounded mate in a military hospital near Cardiff,Wales.I then lived in the west country of England.As I was nearing the railway station to return home,a thick fog,commonly called a peasooper,rolled in.This aided by the blackout,cut visibility to nil.Groping along a wall,I collided with someone coming the other way.The person fell,I lifted the person upright and enquiring if all was well,a female voice assured me no damage was done. Understand the fog I describe was so dense,that with the blackout and the dark it was impossible to distinguish features.We stood there talking,and to cut a long story short,she confessed to being a lady of the night,and did I wish to avail myself of her services.At seventeen I was untried but not ignorant of the facts of life,and for the first time I succomed to temptation.One other point I make here,in those times sixpence was a tanner(5c),a shilling a bob,two shillings two bob and so forth,and as she had not demanded money first,I was fearful of the cost,having very little money left.After the deed was done,I enquired of the cost.I was flabbergasted when she replied,'just a tanner'.(6d).Recovering from my surprise I said,"surely you can't make a living from just charging a tanner".She said,"I don't do too bad,what with these few odd tanner's and my old age pension I get along". Regards,Harry.
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Monday, 15 October 2001 - 08:58 am
Dear Harry, The twist in the tail was welcome. By the way, I also have a red handkerchief...how it would appear to the casual observer under gaslight, I can only wonder. Odd thought. Rosey :-)
Author: Christopher T George Monday, 15 October 2001 - 09:51 am
Hi, Harry: Good thread. Fine, telling thoughts. I also think that the Ripper may have given his victims presents, vide the new bonnet Polly Nichols had at her death and the red scarfs or handkerchiefs various witnesses saw the women wearing. The fact that Hutchinson testified that he actually saw the red handkerchief being handed to MJK may be significant. Since I am pretty sure the killer also robbed his victims, implying to my mind a poor man not the toff of common Ripper lore, he may also have taken the red handkerchief away with him. Excellent deduction, Harry, that the murderer may have taken the heart away in the handkerchief. Consider how a red cloth would not show bloodstains in the same way a white cloth would! Such a red cloth could have been used to carry away his other "souvenirs" as well. Best regards Chris George
Author: graziano Monday, 15 October 2001 - 10:18 am
Hello Harry, Chris George, Harry, your "Amarcord" (memories) as Fellini would have called them are really the kind of things he would have put in his movies and that would have made them marvelous. You just wrote a piece of anthology on these boards. Concerning another very astute point you make, the fact that the ladies being prostitute were to be paid before use and that no money was found on their body, one deduction could be the one of Chris George. But, Chris George, another could be that, as I tried fruitlessly to show with Annie Chapman (speaking about her condition that night (not very appetizing) and the very unlikeliness of the use for immoral purpose of the back yard of 29 Hanbury street, whatever the Abberline's no doubt), the ladies (Tabram, Nicholls, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes) were not called by "the Ripper" that same night for sex. And this seems to me more logic with the fact, for which I believe you are correct, that he gained her trust during the previous hours of the murder handing them gifts. Bye. Graziano.
Author: Christopher T George Monday, 15 October 2001 - 10:26 am
Hi, Graziano: In the musical I have written, "Jack--The Musical" I have the Ripper give Polly Nicholls the bonnet, as I speculate actually may have happened, although I make the bonnet a red one and not black as it actually was. Jack says, "Scarlet for a harlot!" All the best Chris
Author: graziano Monday, 15 October 2001 - 10:42 am
Harry, Chris George, I do not remember that a precise list of the clothes found in 13 Miller's court has ever been found till today. We know about the man's overcoat found hanging before the window, the rests of a jacket (skirt ?) and of a woman's hat on the fire grate, but if I remember well nothing precise about the woman's clothes found on the chair. If among those clothes a red handkerchief was found, it could explain why Abberline wrote to Scotland Yard (the same night he took Hutchinson's deposition) "I am of opinion his statement is true". What other reasons could he have had to make so promptly such kind of statement ? Bye. Graziano.
Author: graziano Monday, 15 October 2001 - 10:54 am
Chris George, does the musical reflects your own views on the case ? I would be glad to have one copy of it, better if signed by you. Is it possible ? "Scarlet for a harlot ?" I am sorry, Chris, I think my english is a bit under that and worse, my Collin's italian-english is also. What does it mean or refers to exactly ? Thanks.
Author: Christopher T George Monday, 15 October 2001 - 11:07 am
Hi, Graziano: I will e-mail you about our CD. To answer your question, the musical does not exactly mirror my full feelings about the case. It is a fictional treatment, but I have come to the conclusion that so little is known about this killer, it could be virtually anybody. The scenario I posit, a newspaper reporter who does the murders and who gives the victims gifts to allay their suspicions, is a possibility. We make the killer do the killings to promote his job as a reporter, and of course the media of the day did benefit from the sensation that the murders represented, so to that extent the fictional killer we have created does fit to an uncanny extent with the historical truth and perhaps explains why the musical appeals to most people who have heard it. Best regards Chris George
Author: Grailfinder Monday, 15 October 2001 - 11:35 am
Hi Harry/all I think you misunderstood me? I ask you why do you think Jack/Punter gave her the Hankie? Have a look on the web for Handkerchief lore, you may be surprised. They have and still are being used to give a clue to ones sexual preference, for eg; The color of the Hankie can tell a punter what the wearer is into, Yellow means Watersports, Green = open-air etc. Even from which pocket it hangs, front/back or left/right they all have separate meanings. So getting back to Kelly, could not the appearance of a hanky by Kelly be a signal (to a Pimp/bodyguard) that a deal had been struck and all is well?. As to the question you ask about the pile of cloths and why Mary hadn't placed the Hankie with these, well if it was being used as a contraceptive! think about it, she did put it away somewhere? but not where one could see it. With regards to its size, You are correct to point out that as the Hankie was given to MJK by a man then the item in question should be on the large side, however, the man Hutch describes was no hairy arsed navvie! he was a well manicured Gentleman, and Gentlemen do not carry about there person dirty great snotrags do they! rather a smaller, more refined slip of silk and nothing like the sort of thing my Grandad used to tie in knots and wear on his head on his summer holiday. Cheers GF...as appy as a robin!
Author: Warwick Parminter Monday, 15 October 2001 - 07:07 pm
Harry, that story of yours brought tears to my eyes, sympathy tears for both of you, thank God the Japs didn't get you. Rick
Author: Ivor Edwards Monday, 15 October 2001 - 08:13 pm
Harry, You were lucky in one respect it could have been worse, It could have been a man posing as a woman!!! I saw one walking down the street on the mainland the other day wearing high heel shoes ( terrible legs), a red dress, a handbag, and sporting a black beard.That did bring tears of laughter to my eyes. Hi Rick, How are things with you ?
Author: Warwick Parminter Monday, 15 October 2001 - 09:11 pm
Ill be truthful Ivor, I feel lousy, the cold is back, with a vengeance. I've lost my taste, things I love smell awful. I can't drink coffee or tea.Can you imagine the smell of fried smoked bacon and egg making you feel nauseous. Three nights ago a raging tooth-ache caught up with me,--my own fault, I went to have it out next afternoon, a big double, he looked at it and warned me he may have a bit of trouble with it,--I was in his chair a good hour--I thought the tooth was big, but the roots were bigger. The way this year as gone, with a perishing heart attack in May and having to give up smoking, now in the process of hitting the big 70, if thats 2001, let me get into 2002. rick
Author: Ivor Edwards Tuesday, 16 October 2001 - 12:14 am
Rick, Sorry to hear about your troubles. One hour in a dentist chair is a long time.I always keep a bottle of whiskey at home and a box of really strong pain killers. Take two tablets then take a swig of whiskey but dont swallow it. Swill the whiskey on the area that is giving you the pain and keep it covered in whiskey for at least 3-4 minutes until the area with the pain goes numb then spit the drink out. 9 times out of 10 that will do the trick. Works with gum pains as well.When you feel it wearing off repeat it.I know the no smoking bit has got to you from what you told me when we met.Get some aspirin in the house and take one if you feel the old ticker playing up. It can make a lot of difference. Take it easy Rick
Author: Caroline Anne Morris Tuesday, 16 October 2001 - 03:57 am
Hi Rick, I'm so sorry to hear you are not well. I think there was a bug going around in Bournemouth. Although I didn't pick up a cold, I've had no 'get up and go' since, and no appetite whatsoever (good for the figure I guess, but I normally love my food - and drink! ). I agree with Ivor about the aspirin. I take one every day to protect myself against strokes (no Grail, the other kind ), because that's what killed off my mother and grandmother and great-grandmother. Cheery here, ain't it? All the best. Love, Caz PS I told my dentist I'd rather have a baby than have my teeth prodded about. He said "Well make up your mind and I'll adjust the chair accordingly."
Author: Harry Mann Tuesday, 16 October 2001 - 06:01 am
Chris, It was GF who suggested the heart may have been taken away in the hanky.I agreed it was possible. Ivor, It was only a story to add a bit of humour. GF, I get your point,and of course he didn't have to hand over the hanky,maybe it was an involuntry response to her saying she had lost hers,,but would a small hanky be large enough to carry away the heart.I've heard about the silk hanky trick,it's still being used today if the strained look on many faces is anything to go by.(just a joke). Rick, I hope the tears were from your own reminiscence.I have many a chuckle reliving old memories,especially of my time in the military.Like the time I was stationed in the tropics,and having a breather from the heat of the plains at a hill station.The nearby village was out of bounds,and after a while I yearned for female company.Sneaking out of camp one saturday afternoon,and scouting the jungle paths,I spied a slim youthful figure ahead,who on seeing me ran away.I gave chase and it was twenty minutes before I caught up.To my surprise it was not a female,but a young man,and do you know what ,I nearly let the bugger go.( more tears). Back to the hanky.Kelly is given the hanky and both go to her room.She opens the door,perhaps lights the candle,after all she would want to see the colour of money before performing,and disrobes.(Remember no money was seen to change hands in the street).And she does all this with the hanky still clutched in her hand?.Just my opinion,but I think the hanky would have been placed in a pocket,as she walked to her room.As for intercourse taking place and the hanky used in the manner described,I,m not sure that sex was known to have taken place,either in that instance,or with other victims. Discounting Stride,we have four victims who desperate for money,would be enticed to trade their favours for a cash return.Each is an old hand at the game,yet no payment is found on any body,or in the case of Kelly ,in her room.Prepayment,I think,would be a must,and at least one might be thought to be able to secrete such payment in a secure place among her clothes. The killer had little time for a concentrated search,his own security was at stake,so would he risk capture for the sake of a few pennies?. The hanky and the cash,or to be more precise,the lack of such,are items to be considered closely. That's just my opinion,and it is also an opinion that the hanky is a red herring(sorry red handkerchief),that it never existed except in the imagination of George Hutchinson. Regards,H.Mann.
Author: Christopher T George Tuesday, 16 October 2001 - 09:16 am
Hi, Harry: Thanks for setting me right that it was Grailfinder and not you who suggested the killer may have carried MJK's heart away in the handkerchief. I agree with you that George Hutchinson's statement is suspicious and that therefore the red handkerchief was possibly made up. However, if the handkerchief was not fictitious, it is an interesting factor to consider. Best regards Chris George
Author: Harry Mann Wednesday, 17 October 2001 - 07:07 am
Rick, Sorry to hear you are not the best at present,and my wish is that you recover quickly and fully. Chris, Thanks for your comments,and certainly I am suspicious of Hutchinson's statement,not just the hanky,but the whole picture he presents. Very little is said of Kelly,it is as if the whole object of his coming forward is to direct attention at the companion she is alledged to have met.Quite rightly some may say,here is a really viable suspect.It is exacly what the police need,he should be commended for it,perhaps forgetting that it took three days to be so public spirited. Let us examine another aspect of the scenario played out in Commercial St.If the police activity and surveilance was as intense and widespread as we are led to believe,why was nothing observed.No one was attempting to hide.Hutchinson,Kelly and the stranger,were acting naturally.Commercial St was at the centre of the ripper happenings,it commanded as close attention as any other part of Whitechapel. While no actual killings had taken place there,it was as likely a place for potential victims and killer to meet,as any other locality. Then for Hutchinson to stand for 45 minutes,outside Crossingham's,unobserved by any police presence,is to me ,quite baffling. I have previouly,as have others,questioned the remarkable feat of memory claimed by Hutchinson.Together with my recent posts,I see no reason to not suspect him of lying. And if he did lie,if every thing was just a figment of his imagination,then the diary is immaterial,Maybrick could not have been there. Regards,H.Mann.
Author: david rhea Tuesday, 08 January 2002 - 01:37 pm
Hinton's book"From Hell"states that the fire in Kelly's room was a smouldering fire created with clothes that could contain and give off it's heat for a least 8hrs. The reasons given are; 1-To provide light(so says the sainted Abberline who investigated the contents of the grate).There was enough light earlier for Barnett and ashbrook or Harvey at 8:00.There was no light visible at 3:00 according to Cox. 2-To give warmth.There would have already been a fire there earlier and not made with Maria Harvey's clothes as fuel. Sarah Lewis saw someone about 2:30 (a stout man wearing a wideawake hat).Surely this hat is distinctive and not the same as the "billycock (derby)"seen by Mary Cox at 11:45.This man had a quart of beer and was friendly enough to listen to "Only a violet plucked from my mother's grave as a boy".This visit was not sexual.Who could get up for that song which according to testimony went on for awhile(11:45-1:00)Who could that have been?No one knows,but maybe one of the Barnett brothers).Sarah Lewis saw someone at 2:30 across the street from Miller's Court( a stout man wearing a wideawake hat who was interested in Miller's Court.George Hutchinson said that he was there and that makes him the last person to have access to Mary Kelly.Suppose the fire was made to confuse the time of death.The smouldering fire would have been effective in that small room(12ft square).The dictors placed the time of death between 4:45-5:45)If the fire had been a lazing one it would have scortched the shoes placed there earlier to dry.Hutchinson knew he has been seen by Sarah Lewis.He could have killed Kelly between2:30- 3:00. Since so little is known about Hutchinson about all you can do is suppose(a common practice in these parts).Could he have known that a very hot room would affect the time of death? The character Hutcinson said he saw seems more of a characture (invented)than a real person.The cry of murder heard later in the morning need not have been from Mary Kelly, since it was stated that such a cry was not an uncommon sound in that neighborhood.
Author: Jeff D Tuesday, 08 January 2002 - 03:49 pm
Hi David, Bob Hinton's book does raise quite a number of interesting possibilities and questions, doesn't it ? I have read and re-read "From Hell" and personally I really do love this book. I think that Mr. Hinton's viewpoints and the book itself has added a considerable amount to Ripper research, including raising a number of very good questions and previously ignorred or overlooked possibilities. Hutchinson doesn't necessarily have to have been the killer for this book to still add a great deal to these studies. For instance, From Hell puts forth an extremely good argument for Mr. Astrahkan being a figment of Hutch's imagination, (of which I am convinced is correct) which does raise the question "if it's a lie, why?" Many kind regards Jeff D
Author: david rhea Tuesday, 08 January 2002 - 03:55 pm
Jeff. Thanks for replying. What do you think about a smouldering fire as a means to confuse the time of death?David
Author: Robert Maloney Tuesday, 08 January 2002 - 08:27 pm
Does anyone know how old Hutchinson was at the time of the murders? Rob
Author: graziano Wednesday, 09 January 2002 - 05:04 am
I think Bob Hinton found he was 28. I read somewhere else he was ten years older, but I do not recollect the source. I will try to find it. Bye. Graziano.
Author: graziano Wednesday, 09 January 2002 - 05:11 am
The lost posts on this boards with the conversation on the role of Hutchinson between myself, Robert Maloney, Harry Mann and Bob Hinton are an enormous loss on the Casebook. For me in any case. If someone by any chance had them copied somewhere I would greatly appreciate to be able to get them for personal purposes. Grazzir@hotmail.com Thanks. Graziano.