|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Hyams, Hyam
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: General Discussion :
Hyams, Hyam
Author: Scott Nelson
Sunday, 24 June 2001 - 07:58 pm |        | I thought it was about time that Hyam Hyams was given a suspect board. Ever since he was first discussed in Ripperana (no. 21, 1997, p. 18-19) I was fascinated with his character traits and he makes a good candidate for Anderson's Polish Jew. Although born in Aldgate like his parents, he was described as a Polish Jew in asylum casenotes. UK researcher Mark King gives two accounts of this individual, one in the aforementioned Ripperana and quite recently in the April (actually June) 2001 Ripperologist. Hyams would have been 33 at the time of the murders, was 5'-7" tall and had a brown moustache. He was also an epileptic, addicted to drink and could become very violent. He practiced "self-abuse" and had delusions that his wife had been unfaithful (she had four miscarriages). He once stabbed her in the neck and at another time injured his mother's head while attacking his wife with a hatchet.
The MET police picked up Hyams on December 29, 1888 and took him to the Whitechapel Infirmary,where it was determined that he was apparently suffering from epileptic fits or deluded mania. Discharged on January 11, 1889, he was readmitted several months later on April 15th and immediately transferred to Colney Hatch Asylum under restraint. He was released as cured several months later on August 30th. He didn't behave in a normal manner for very long however, because he was picked up on September 9th described as "the terror of the City of London Police" and taken to the Stone Asylum in Kent. He was finally sent back to Colney Hatch for good on January 4, 1890, where he died on March 22, 1913.
Mr. King has found several potential links between the families of Hyam Hyams and Joseph Hyam Levy from census and business directories. Levy was one of three men who saw a man talking to a woman (later identified as Eddowes) near Mitre Square minutes before her body was discovered there. A review of the marriage, birth and death notices in the Jewish Chronicle (JC)from 1869 to 1895 shows that there were many families surnamed Hyams and Levy concentrated in Aldgate between the Spitalfields Market and the Commercial Street areas (jeffreymaynard.com/index.htm). Two known addresses for the wife and/or mother of Hyam Hyams at the time of the murders were at 4 Bell Court, Bell Lane, Spitalfields and at 36 New Street, Gravel Lane. Both of these locations would have been en-route to Goulston Street from Mitre Square.
Essentially these links start with a fruiterer, Phillip Lewis, who lived at 24 Mitre Street in the 1841 and 1851 census returns. He had a daughter, Amelia, who married Joseph Hyam Levy in 1866. Amelia still lived at this address in the 1861 census, while Phillip was then at 21 Mitre Street. Here's where it gets a little sticky: One Ann Levy, a cigar dealer and fruiterer, is shown in the 1841-1861 census returns as residing at 29 Mitre Street. She had four children, one, a daughter named Fanny, was Hyam Hyams' mother. Fanny married Solomon Hyams prior to 1855, and by 1888 she is listed by the postal directory as a fruiterer living at 29 Mitre Street, the home of her mother Ann. The 1891 census then shows Fanny Hyams living at 24 Mitre Street, the former home of Amelia (Levy's wife). But other than this link, there is no known connection between Amelia (ne'e Lewis) and Ann Levy, nor with her daughter Fanny Hyams.
There are a couple of interesting connections in the Eddowes murder with two of Ann's other children. One son, Lewis, is listed in the 1861 census as a cigar maker at 8 Mitre Street, which backed to the pavement of the murder site in Mitre Square. This house is described as empty at the time of the Eddowes murder (Sugden, Complete History JtR, p. 174-5). Next door at the corner to the carriage entrance to Mitre Square was a shop run by a Mr. Taylor at #9. Could Hyams have stayed at #8 in 1888, even though it was abandoned? One is tempted to visualize him standing on the second floor looking out the back window into the Square late at night. The view back through the Church Passage to Duke Street may have been clear enough to espy a woman standing at the far end, obviously soliciting. This speculation would invalidate Stride being a victim of this person because of the time constraints between the two murders. The time span is also considerable between 1861, when Lewis Levy is last recorded as living at #8, and 1888, the time of the murders, but it doesn't mean that a Hyams or a Levy family member couldn't have lived there until just before the murders. The journalist George Sims, who received information on Anderson's suspect, wrote that he was "a Polish Jew of curious habits and strange disposition who was the sole occupant of certain premises in Whitechapel after night-fall" (Lloyd's Weekly News 22.9.07). This is partially supported by Anderson's statement that "he was living in the immediate vicinity of the scenes of the murders; and that, if he was not living absolutely alone, his people knew of his guilt..." Perhaps his suspect retreated to an abandoned house after the killings, a home that he or a relative had lived in previously.
Another of Ann's children, John, is shown in the 1884 directory as running a cigar business at 254 Whitechapel Road, two doors from #252. It was here on the doorstep that Thomas Coram found a knife wrapped in a blood-soaked handkerchief the day after the Stride/Eddowes murders. I believe the Stride Inquest testimony of Coram and P.C. Joseph Drage shows that the knife was found on the doorstep of #252, a laundry, and not at #253 as stated in Mr. King's article, although it too was described as a shirt and collar shop. Coram actually said, "No. 252 was a laundry business, and there were two steps leading to the front door, I found the knife at the bottom step." What became of the knife is unknown, but it was examined by Drs. Blackwell and Phillips as a possible clue to the Stride murder, but thought not to have been the murder weapon because it resembled a slicing knife (Coroner: "dagger-shaped) with a rounded end. This kind of knife was thought unlikely of causing the incision observed in Stride's throat (info. in the Ultimate JtR, pp. 156-7 and 162-3). This observation may have further negated consideration that this knife could have been used in the murder of Eddowes, whose wounds were much more extensive, and apparently not dagger-like.
Another possible link to Mitre Square is that when the police first picked up Hyams, his address was 217 Jubilee Street (the 1888-1890 directories show a Joseph Kurz and Phillip Abrahams, Hairdressers, at this address). Next door, at #218, is where Emily Marsh encountered a stange man in October asking for the address of George Lusk (on October 16th, Lusk received a parcel containing half a human kidney). Of all these connection, this latter is the most significant in my opinion, as it potentially links Hyams to a piece of very suspicious circumstantial evidence.
How does Hyams fit Anderson and Swanson's descriptions of their suspect? We've seen that Hyams practiced self-abuse. Further asylum notes said that he "destroys his bedding and paints his walls with filth". This latter observation could indicate why Anderson was so repulsed by the actions of his suspect, not so much because he thought masturbation by iteself was so vile, but because the former trait could have "reduced him to a lower level than that of a brute" in his judgement. Hyams also went to two asylums at various times, including two stints at Colney Hatch and one at the City Of London Stone Asylum. He was released at periods, only to be readmitted when his madness returned. This could fit some of the seemingly contradictory aspects of Anderson and Swanson's joint recollections about the suspect's identification by a witness and his surveillance by the City Police.
So Hyams is taken to the Workhouse Infirmary on December 29th and released in January 1889. In this time period, MET police suspicions are roused and he is eventually arrested in April 1889, placed under restraint and taken to Colney Hatch Asylum. During this stay in the asylum, Anderson may have attempted to identify him and secure evidence with a witness, but gets no further than a positive ID. After a time, the police and asylum staff have no choice but to release him (August 1889). He is watched by the City CID (Swanson: "by day & by night"), probably earning he title "terror of the City of London Police" because of his unpredictability. In a little more than a week (Swanson: "in a very short time..."), he's taken to Stone Asylum in Kent, then transferred back to the Hatch in January 1890. But rather than dying shortly afterwards as Swanson reportedly said, he lives for another 23 years. And, of course, Swanson named the suspect "Kosminski".
A couple of other interesting connections and caveats to supplement Mark King's Ripperologist article: Ann Levy was not married to Hyam Levy nor was she Joseph Levy's mother. His mother was Francis Levy, who died in January 1889 at 36 Middlesex Street.
The JC records that in 1894 (the late) Abraham and Hannah Hyams resided at 20 Mitre Street, opposite the St. James Place (Orange Market). Recall, next door at #21 lived Phillip Lewis and his daughter, Amelia (1861 census), who became Joseph Levy's wife. A son of Abraham and Hannah, Mark, married an Amelia Myers-Hyams in December 1893.
Joseph Hyam Levy, after leaving his butchery business at 1 Hutchinson Street in 1891-2, then partnered with one Charles Lazarus, a restaurant owner at 8 Great Alie Street. Then, sometime probably in late 1892 they launched the "Lazarus & Levy Loan Office" at 51 Mansell Street, initially sharing the building with the Jewish Social Club (not the same as the Imperial Club at Duke Street, which was gone by this time). By 1894, the City of London Directory refers to this address as the "Mansell Street Loan Office", and by 1895 it disappears. The JC in 1894 records the death of Jacob Lazarus, the father of Charles, who by this time is listed as residing at 84 Colvestone Crescent and "formerly of 51 Mansell Street".
The London Newspaper, Star (October 1, 1888), reported: "From two different sources we have the story that a man, when passing through Church Lane at about half past one, saw a man sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands. As everyone is on the look-out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat". Prior to 1893, there lived a Henry Levy of the "Horse & Groom", a Livery Stable (or Pub?) in Church Lane. He had one brother Joshua, who lived at 334 Mile End (Whitechapel) Road and three sisters, a Mrs. B. Hart of 298 Mare Street, Hackney, Mrs. L. Hart of St. Mark Street and a Mrs. I. Abrahams of 212 Mile End (Whitechapel) Road. Mrs. I. Abrahams had a son, Phillip, whose address was given as 8 Queen Square, Aldersgate Street in 1886. This is possibly the same Phillip Abrahams listed as a hairdresser in the 1888 and 1890 business directories at 217 Jubilee Street, the same address that Hyam Hyams was to give before he was taken to the Workhouse in December 1888. |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 24 June 2001 - 10:19 pm | | Interesting overview Scott, nice to read about someone different for a change.
We can see several interesting circumstantial links between Hyams and certain aspects of this case, maybe further investigation will turn up something solid.
Regards, Jon |
Author: Scott Nelson
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 11:20 pm | | | Thank you Jon. There's some other interesting connections, noteably with the family of S.J. Britton, one time Secretary of the Imperial Club in Duke Street (Viper should be interested in this). All very tentative at this point, but I think some very interesting links are beginning to fall into place. I'll post further on these when I've had further time to research them more conclusively (Viper-thanks, maybe you've got some further insights?) |
Author: The Viper
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 03:21 am | | Nothing specific to offer, Scott, so you just keep on digging. There are certainly references to the Britton family on that website, (assuming you are using http://www.jeffreymaynard.com/index.htm, as it appears you are). I have never tried to tie the Brittons back in to other characters we meet in the case. Good luck with your enquiries.
Regards, V. |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 10:29 am | | Hi, Scott:
Thanks for posting this interesting information.
It looks as if Hyam Hyams or his father, or both, or maybe a relative, were silversmiths, doesn't it? A British site on silverware at http://www.schredds.com/~schredds/tong.htm shows "A pair of Queens pattern grapeshears by Hyam Hyams, London, 1868."
Chris George |
Author: Scott Nelson
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 03:39 pm | | | Thanks Chris, very good workmanship on his part too I might add. Might have been a relative, who knows? I'll keep the possible silversmith connection in mind. I'd be half-tempted to bid on the item if I wasn't so strapped for cash. |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 04:14 pm | | Hi, Scott:
The silversmith Hyam Hyams was at work in London as early as the 1850s so he could be our suspect's father or grandfather. Another site shows, "English Four Piece Sterling Silver Coffee and Tea Service with Eagle Finials, London, 1859, by Hyam Hyams." See http://www.walker-poinsett.com/Metals/Silver/03890%20Coffee%20Tea%20Service/Item%20Bot%20Frame.htm Unfortunately no picture showed up, at least on my browser. I also think we can agree that the price of the coffee and tea service is above both of our heads!!! A firm of the name of Hyam & Hyams was going even earlier, because another site lists an "antique Georgian sterling silver bachelors teapot made by Hyam & Hyams of London in 1823." See http://www.bryandouglas.co.uk/silverware/teapots/teapots.htm
In any case, as you say, it is another channel to explore. I am interested in the Hyams' connection with the Levys and will keep it in mind in my own research.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: David Cohen Radka
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 09:05 pm | | Why not use your minds, instead of all this historical research? There is no admission of guilt of having been Jack the Ripper engraved on the bottom of any silversmith's pot.
David |
Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 27 June 2001 - 08:11 pm | | " Your minds , your stupid , stupid minds ! " -
from Plan 9 from Outer Space  |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 28 June 2001 - 11:37 am | | | Mind what you say about our minds, David and Simon. |
Author: Scott Nelson
Thursday, 28 June 2001 - 12:58 pm | | David, ol' bud! How are you? OK, I get it. "A Priori" reasoning alla Kant, "Critique of Pure Reason", and all that. Will try, but it's hard doing it that way. Drop me an email when you get a chance.
S |
Author: David Cohen Radka
Thursday, 28 June 2001 - 01:06 pm | | I don't mean to insult anyone. I'm not very smart myself, you know. There are many ways to solve the case--you can start deducing from various points and get to the end, provided you are looking for the right things. The whole solution to the case can be unpacked from John Richardson, for example.
David |
Author: Stephen P. Ryder
Wednesday, 04 July 2001 - 12:13 am | | | On the subject of Hyam Hyams, we've just this evening posted Mark King's article on the subject from Issue #35 of Ripperologist at: http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-hyams.html |
Author: The Viper
Wednesday, 04 July 2001 - 08:04 am | | Thanks for posting that Stephen, and to those at Ripperologist for giving permission for its use. Though the article does rely somewhat on more of these coincidences of names and addresses (and both Levy and Hyam were pretty common Jewish surnames) it does appear to be very well researched by Mr. King. I'm intrigued not only with Hyams, but with this Jacob Levy. Certain lights have come on here at the mention of his name, and he's definately worthy of some further research.
Regards, V. |
Author: Robert Maloney
Wednesday, 04 July 2001 - 05:26 pm | | Viper,
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Joseph Aarons, the treasurer of the vigilance committee, live thirty yards away from 218 Jubilee Street, Mile End Road? And therefore would have lived very close to 217 Jubilee Street the address Hyam Hyams was due to give an address at? Sorry Viper, I couldn't help it.
Rob |
Author: The Viper
Wednesday, 04 July 2001 - 06:11 pm | | Rob, Joseph Aarons certainly kept the pub at the corner of Jubilee Street and Mile End Road. It was called The Crown and it served as a base to the Vigilance Committee. How close 217 & 218 Jubilee Street were to that corner I don't know - sounds like you do though :-)
Regards, V. |
Author: Tom Wescott
Sunday, 19 August 2001 - 12:33 am | | Hello all,
Since the board was so dead I thought I'd browse a little in the 'Suspects' section. It was interesting to find this thread since I very much enjoyed Mark Kings article on Hyam Hyams in the last issue of Ripperologist. I see it's on the Dissertations page as well. In fact, the Dissertations page has grown a lot in recent months, namely with contributions from Ripperologist and Ripper Notes (including a couple from yours truly . I'm not really big on the idea that Jack was a Jew. It's certainly possible, but just doesn't strike me as all that likely. However, whenever you stick a kid with the same first name as his last, you could hardly be surprised if he grew up to be a serial killer. Come on, people, use your heads! Your kid has to live with his name the rest of his life and deal with the repercussions of your 'originality'. I managed a phone room once and had a woman work for me named Gaye Wakov (maiden name...say it aloud). I was forced to subtley express to her the virtues of using an assumed name on the phones! I talked to someone named Robin Hood the other day. No joke. Now, that's sad. So, with that in mind, Hyam Hyams COULD have been the Ripper. Could you have blamed him?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
P.S. I just received the new issue of Ripperologist today. I haven't even opened it. I plan to review it on these boards soon. Hopefully other subscribers will join me, and maybe even Paul Begg himself! Where has he been lately, anyway? And Martin Fido, for that matter? |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 19 August 2001 - 02:11 am | | Hi Tom:
You ask where Paul Begg is. I believe that Paul is at this moment enjoying a family holiday on the Mediterranean island of Crete.  The rest of us can but wish, eh?
I am interested in your thoughts on the possibility of a Jewish murderer being unlikely. I don't necessarily agree with you but then I don't think the evidence that the killer was a Jew is particularly strong. Certainly, I don't think an unusual name a serial killer makes. . . but then I think you wrote that part of your message a bit tongue in cheek, did you not?
All the best
Chris George |
Author: E Carter
Sunday, 19 August 2001 - 08:50 am | | | Tom, don't you realize? Unless, of course they are both on holiday together probably discussing mutton ED. |
Author: Tom Wescott
Sunday, 19 August 2001 - 11:29 pm | | Chris,
Of course I was joking about the double-name thing. Ha ha. Despite what others on the boards say, I am not humorless. It's hard for me to describe why I don't think a jewish killer is likely. There's many reasons, most of them circumstancial. For one, the large majority of killers are white Europeans or of European descent (America). It's a cultural thing. Not to say that all jews are angels of course (Lipski).A jew in the east end would most likely be a recent immigrant and would probably not be comfortable enough with his surroundings to operate in such a fashion. Also, as there was such a mad hunt for Leather Apron I don't think the prostitutes would have felt so comfortable going with a poor jew. Then there's the potential language barrier. The large majority of the prostitutes clientel would have been Brits, and I think you'd find the Ripper among them. Then there's the witness testimony to consider...While you must take them with a grain of salt, it must be worth noting that none of those described sounded like a Whitechapel jew, although a number mentioned them being foriegn in appearance. In that event, the person would not have been a recent immigrant. To be honest, I could go on all night. It just seems to me that taking everything into account that we know about the Ripper murders and coupling that with all we now know about Serial killers and the data surrounding them, the odds of the Ripper having been a Whitechapel jew are very low. However, I'd be a fool to rule out the possibility. I'm still waiting for a really good jewish suspect, though. What are your thoughts on the matter?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 20 August 2001 - 10:51 am | | Hi, Tom:
I agree that the information that would lead us to conclude that the Whitechapel murderer was a Jew is lacking. However, isn't there a danger in us taking the U.S. profilers' conclusion that most serial killers are white Anglo Saxon types, based on modern U.S. data, and trying to fit it to Whitechapel in 1888, where there was a large foreign element that was either transitory (immigrants or sailors) or resident? If a Jewish serial killer was operating in Whitechapel, I believe he would most likely have earlier killed elsewhere, probably in Eastern Europe, and we may or may not be able to find the data on those earlier killings. Whether the murderer was Jewish or not, it has long been my view that the Nichols killing was not this murderer's first homicide and that he had killed somewhere else beforehand. If I am right, I don't think it would have taken long for a man with such homicidal urges to acclimatize himself to his new environs and begin killing again.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Tom Wescott
Tuesday, 21 August 2001 - 12:19 am | | Chris,
Geographically speaking, there is certainly a possibility that the killer was Jewish. And it seems most likely that Nichols was not his first victim. I'm not so sure that Tabram wasn't a Ripper victim and may also not have been his first. It's an escalated process. And I never said that the profiler's data proves conclusively either way this serial killers nationality, but it shouldn't be ignored. While they, of course, only have had the opportunity to thoroughly research (i.e. interview, etc.) serial killers from the past 25 years or so, their research extends much further back into the early 1900's. Just going on location of course a jew could have been the Ripper, but there's many other hurdles in the way of that theory, the least of which is not culture. The Ripper would not have been sober at the time of the murders. He would have been juiced on either alcohol or some kind of narcotic. That much is rather safe to assume. It is probably no coincidence that all the murders occured after the bars had closed with the exception of Kelly's murder which was located very near a bar that was quite open in the hours before her death (regardless of which ETOD you prefer). A jew of that time (and probably now) was nowhere near as likely to have shared in the vices so common amongst their Anglo-Saxon neighbors (i.e. prostitutes, drugs/alcohol, hanging out in bars). Then there's the matter of the possible language barrier and the prostitutes being less willing to go alone with a jew. Then there's the varied witness testimony. Pretty much everything points away from a Whitechapel jew (i.e. lower class recent immigrant) having been the Ripper. Alas, there's always that possibility.
With all that said, how about offering me some reasons why a jew would be more likely than Brit, in return? Give me something to mull over.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
P.S. As far as ethnic candidates go, someone like Chapman (but not necessarily him) could be appropriate, but not someone like Kosminski. |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 21 August 2001 - 09:20 am | | Hi, Tom:
Two reasons why a Jew might be possible as the killer: Two of the victims, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes, were found close to Jewish men's clubs. Stride was found at the side of the International Workingmen's Educational Club, and she spoke Yiddish. Eddowes was found not far from the Imperial Club and was observed shortly before her death talking to a man by witnesses coming out of the Imperial Club. It seems probable that both of these women took Jews as clients given where they were found and Stride's knowledge of Yiddish.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Tuesday, 21 August 2001 - 12:44 pm | | Hi Chris, Tom,
But that could also have given a rabidly anti-Semitic Jack his motive; being a gin-soaked East End whore might have been one thing - but hanging about Jewish men's clubs, picking up Jewish clients - that could have tipped the scales for our angry young man - or men.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Tom Wescott
Tuesday, 21 August 2001 - 02:06 pm | | Chris,
Where the victims were found is incidental. It's likely they met up with Jack somewhere else and THEY led him there to conduct business. That entire area was liberally sprinkled with jewish tenements and hangouts. Also, and pardon me if I'm mistaken as I quite possibly am, but didn't I read somewhere that you didn't buy Stride as a Ripper victim? And you point out that Stride, alone of the 5 (6 if you count Tabram) victims spoke Yiddish. I've got a better one for you...ALL SIX spoke English!
Caz,
If Jack bore any disdain for the immigrants in the area, as many Londoners did, it probably didn't work it's way too deep into his motive which would have been centered around womanhood. And do you really mean to suggest that there was more than one Jack?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 21 August 2001 - 02:29 pm | | Hi, Tom:
To be clear about it, I do believe Elizabeth Stride to have been a Ripper victim. I am not one of the nay-sayers that seem to be prevalent on these boards. I also do think that there is some relevance to where Stride and Eddowes were found, both near Jewish men's clubs, although the significance, as Caz rightly points out, might have been that the women were killed there to implicate the Jews not that the killer himself was a Jew.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Wednesday, 22 August 2001 - 04:47 am | | Hi Tom,
It's just a possibility that, if Jack was a racial bigot as well as a woman-hater (the two often go hand in hand I believe), he would have resented seeing these white, English-speaking females hanging around Jewish clubs, desperate to give their bodies to the first Jew with money in his pocket. We have the examples of Stride and Eddowes to support that possibility, although, as Chris has pointed out, the killer could equally have been among these women's Jewish clients.
I don't mean to suggest there was more than one Jack. I simply don't know. But I don't yet know the basis on which some people appear to totally reject the idea. What evidence is there, or can there be, to show there must have been only one involved in Jack's murders? We can't even decide how many victims there were, precisely because some appear to be by another hand!
And there are well-documented folie a deux serial killings, so why is it crazy to imagine something similar could apply to one or more unsolved cases?
The tendency is to think of 'Jack' as one personality - the lone killer. And the statistics on convicted serial killers back up that view. So unless or until there is clear evidence to the contrary, I guess that's the 'scholarly' way to proceed. But where's the harm in looking at these killings from other angles, exploring other ideas and possibilities, using the little hard evidence we do have, and seeing where it might lead us?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Tom Wescott
Thursday, 23 August 2001 - 12:45 am | | Caz,
You are absolutely right in saying that looking at the case from every angle can be beneficial. But a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, so the more one knows about serial killing the better ones perception is when viewing the possible angles.
I think you would agree with me when I say we can safely take that Jack was not female as a fact, knowing what I know you know about serial murder.
To say Jack killed these women because they were sleeping with jews is to suggest these were hate crimes. Hates crimes, particularly when done by a group, are purposed to make a particular point. Such as today...Recently some vandals demolished a jewish cemetery. They were directing a point towards this group. By killing a prostitute no message would be received other than 'don't be a prostitute'. Then you must take the mutilations into consideration. They would not fit into 'hate crime' but fit nicely with what we know of serial killers.
I don't know what 'folie a deux' means, but I guess you're trying to say there's many examples of dual serial killers. While there are enough examples of dual mass murderers and spree killers to be noteworthy, there are not many examples to be found of dual serial killers, although a few have existed. However, in these cases sadism is generally apparent. Together they get off on the torture of these girls. This is more important than the 'climax' of their deaths. Jack was entirely the opposite. The death of his victims were incidental, the mutilations and 'tokens' taken being the apparent goal. There truly is nothing to suggest that Jack was either an anti-semite bent on improving the world's social morals (his victims would have been a better class than prostitutes and he'd more likely have torched a jewish club, or something of the sort) or that Jack was in fact a pair or gang of serial killers. If someone wanted to seriously pursue a theory along these lines it would leave holes large enough to park a truck in, and wouldn't find much backing.
I hope I'm not coming off as harsh in any way. Just enjoying a friendly debate.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 23 August 2001 - 04:57 am | | Hi Tom,
Not coming off as harsh at all, I'm enjoying the debate too.
I don't think there is much dispute that Jack (or two Jacks) had hatred in his soul when he killed - either hatred against himself, or certain individuals or groups around him, or the world in general. Of course not all such killings are done to make a particular point or send out a distinct message to anyone. The victim displays could mean nothing much more than "Look, this is what my world made me do". Serial killers are notoriously (ha ha) self-centered, self-serving, self-pitying buggers, not always capable of looking at things from the point of view of those touched by their crimes, or interested in their reactions. This could easily apply to one Jack, or even two, who hated women or prostitutes in general (or possibly 'Jew-loving' whores in particular).
'Folie a deux' usually refers to a couple (of the same or opposite gender) where one is influenced by the more dominant one's personality, and becomes irrevocably enmeshed (through loyalty, need, empathy, love and/or sex) in whatever 'madness' the latter has in mind. Sadism might, as you say, be generally apparent in such cases. But our knowledge is still expanding on the subject, and 'generally' isn't all-encompassing. We just don't know enough to reject other possibilities, especially as we are stuck with comparing the solved with the unsolved.
And, yes, I would find it very hard to think of Jack as Jill. But I would not rule out a possible bisexual connection somewhere, especially with more than one Jack.
Love,
Caz |
Author: E Carter
Thursday, 23 August 2001 - 05:10 am | | | Caz, have heard of, or do you understand 'Ganzer syndrome'? Because your message hits on a very poignant nail. I simply can not let what you said pass us by! ED |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 23 August 2001 - 08:36 am | | Do tell me more.
Love,
Caz |
Author: John Omlor
Thursday, 23 August 2001 - 08:48 am | | Hi Caz,
You write:
"I don't think there is much dispute that Jack (or two Jacks) had hatred in his soul when he killed..."
Well, there might be some dispute about whether Jack (or two Jacks) had anything in any "soul" at all. There might be some real dispute about this whole "soul" thing -- unless you are simply suggesting that Jack sang a certain type of funky music while he worked.
But we don't want to start arguing about the existence of "souls" around here -- we have enough unsolvable mysteries to deal with just speaking historically, right?
--John
PS: Wait a minute... Maybe this give a whole new meaning to "Papa's got a brand new bag...." |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 23 August 2001 - 09:53 am | | Hi John,
I thought I heard Jack singing 'I'm a soul man (da-da da da-da, da-da da)', but now I think it was more likely 'I'm an ass-soul, man...'
Love,
Caz |
Author: Tom Wescott
Friday, 24 August 2001 - 12:31 am | | Caz,
You said 'ass'. That was pretty funny. Personally, I don't believe that Jack hated all women, although he unquestionably had some issues with certain types. I also don't believe race had anything to do with it. In cases of serial murders where prostitutes are the choice victims you will find them of all races, if the general location allows, and all ages. In this sort of a case the serial linkage is that they are all prostitutes. If Jack's total had been bigger and there were a more diverse selection of whores in the area, I wouldn't have been at all surprised to have found hookers of other races and ethnic groups in his body count. As for Jack having SOME homosexual tendencies, that's a strong possibility, although it wouldn't have been an IMMEDIATE contributing factor, although would certainly have something to do with the full picture. Contrary to urban legend it seems to me that the majority of serial killers are heterosexual and Jack would certainly fit in this group. Most white people of lower income living in an area with a lot of immigrants or people of other races will have their misgivings about these people and their ways, so Jack may have had his, but I really don't think that was a motivating factor. Even the graffito to me doesn't seem anti-semitic in tone, only the misspelling of 'jews' giving that theory any ground. So, in closing, I will say that I don't believe there's much possibility at all of Jack having operated out of racial hatred, and although it is possible that Jack was a jew, I don't think it likely.
Jon,
I'm glad to see you were joking about the non-existence of souls. That's not a place we should go on here. As for the song, shouldn't it be 'Papa's got a brand new Gladstone Bag'?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Friday, 24 August 2001 - 06:48 am | | Hi All,
I think we'd have trouble if we started thinking of Jack as a man with no soul. How could we punish, or blame, anyone born without one? Or someone whose soul has been destroyed along the way by external forces?
No, I think Jack had to have a soul. He just chose to feed it badly.
What was that old joke about the kid who was learning his lines on the way to school? "I've come to fill your soul with hope - I've come to fill your soul with hope - I've come to fill your soul with hope." When he finally gets his cue, he blurts out "I've come to fill your hole with soap - oh bugger it, I never wanted to be in the stupid play anyway."
Love,
Caz |
Author: John Omlor
Friday, 24 August 2001 - 10:20 am | | Caz writes:
"I think we'd have trouble if we started thinking of Jack as a man with no soul. How could we punish, or blame, anyone born without one?"
Well, if we've all been born without one, then thinking of Jack as a man without one wouldn't really make a difference, and we could punish or blame him just the same.
I wasn't suggesting that Jack was a killer because he had no soul. I was suggesting that some might dispute the myth of the "soul" in general, and might argue that Jack, like the rest of us, didn't really have one.
But as I said, we won't solve the theological problem here. So we shouldn't really argue about such things.
Just wanted to clarify,
--John (whose soul was once rubber, before the Beatles broke up... and who loves the Simpson's episode where Bart sells his soul to Millhouse for some quick cash and then discovers, among other things, that the automatic sliding doors at the Quickie Mart will no longer open when he approaches) |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Friday, 24 August 2001 - 10:35 am | | John, you have no soul. (Only kidding.)
No, best not to get into theological probs. What was I doing talking about souls anyway - I'm an atheist!
Love,
Caz
(have pity on this poor old soul - creeping senility don't you know) |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Friday, 24 August 2001 - 10:47 am | | soul n. life: that which thinks, feels, desires, etc.: the ego: innermost being or nature: that which one identifies with oneself: moral and emotional nature, power, or sensibility: nobleness of spirit or its sincere expression: essence: the essential part: the moving spirit, inspirer, leader.... (Chambers)
that's all I meant really - nothing theological at all.
Love,
Caz |
Author: John Omlor
Friday, 24 August 2001 - 10:56 am | | Hi Caz,
Ah yes, the soul as "ego" or "conscience" or the morality of the self, in non-theological terms.
Very good. Of course, your Chambers definition does manage to work in words like "spirit" and "essence," as if those clarified anything. Sneaking a bit of the Romanticized theology in through the back door, as it were.
But enough. I do see what you meant, Caz, even if I have no essence and even if my spirit is at best a restless and disturbingly detached one that insists on haunting me just before I fall asleep at nights.
All the best, and have a great weekend,
--John |
Author: Tom Wescott
Friday, 24 August 2001 - 07:22 pm | | Caz,
That was a funny joke about the kid.
John,
Ixnay on the atheism, bro. That's a bad call for these message boards.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: John Omlor
Saturday, 25 August 2001 - 09:33 am | | Hi Tom,
No worries. I was just having a bit of fun with Caz. Hell, I sometimes foolishly play golf while watching the lightning -- that's how confident I am that I'll remain free from divine retribution. 
Seriously, though, let us all return to Mr. Hyams, who has long since passed away so that this particular board might have a name.
All the best,
--John |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Sunday, 26 August 2001 - 06:04 am | | Damn it - I never felt a thing! I must have been 
It's too late to have a bit of irreverent fun when we're dead (except in Jack's case, of course), so keep it up and meanwhile we'll give the floor back to Hyam Hyams - so good they named him twice.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
Love,
Caz |
|
|
|
|
