|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through March 20, 2001
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects:
Contemporary Suspects [ 1888 - 1910 ]:
Tumblety, Francis:
Archive through March 20, 2001
Author: John Dixon
Thursday, 11 January 2001 - 03:25 pm |        | | Today I happened to find & look at "The Ripper legacy" by Howells & Skinner , while I'm not particularly interested in Tumblety it did strike me that their summarised Ripper description was a rather good match for him. By allowing JtR's height to slip out past 5'6" & emphasising the moustache without sideburns they make Tumblety look rather good 10 years before the Littlechild letter. |
Author: Colleen Andrews
Thursday, 25 January 2001 - 12:41 am | | | An early post in this list mentions that the book The Lodger places Tumblety in London, Canada West (Ontario) in 1853--I don't recall this, but if true, he should appear in the 1851 Canada West census & I'm going to check this out asap. Unfortunately he is said to have left Toronto for Rochester, NY in 1860, which means he won't appear on the 1861 census. This post also said Tumblety was born in IRELAND.....I know he was of Irish descent but I distinctly recall Evans' book saying he was born "as far as can be ascertained" in CANADA around 1833.....because I've always wondered just how they ascertained that. I am going to try & check this out, although there was no civil registration in Upper Canada/Canada West/Ontario till 1869, so it won't be easy. |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 25 January 2001 - 12:22 pm | | Hi, Colleen:
My understanding from Stewart Evans is that the original edition of The Lodger (later republished as Jack the Ripper: First American Serial Killer) included the erroneous information that Tumblety was born in Canada in 1833, I believe obtained from information contained in contemporary newspapers. I understand that information that the authors obtained subsequently from Rochester, New York, census records indicates that Tumblety was born in Dublin, Ireland, around 1830, so that he was born three years earlier than originally believed, and in Ireland not Canada. If you wish further information, Mr. Evans is one of the most helpful and congenial of the Ripper authors, and would welcome your e-mail enquiry.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Colleen Andrews
Thursday, 25 January 2001 - 08:49 pm | | Chris:
Thank you for this message; I wasn't aware there was a later edition of The Lodger; I thought Jack the Ripper: First American Serial Killer was merely a US title for the same book. I will have to order this edition since I only have The Lodger, & found that by accident on a bargain shelf in the bookstore. I never remember hearing about the book before or since. I searched the 1871 online census index for Ontario & came up with absolutely no Tumbletys at all. I found several from Ireland in the IGI but no Francis's. However I'm interested in finding out if Francis' family immigrated to Canada first or the US, & when--this will take some research! |
Author: Stewart P Evans
Friday, 26 January 2001 - 02:30 am | | Regarding the above entries I would comment as follows.
The name Tumblety, as we have noted, had variant spellings which has caused some difficulty in researching the name. Also Francis Tumblety's exact date of birth is not known. The press reports contain conflicting evidence which has resulted in some confusion. The census showed that he was born in Ireland, and in one newspaper report it is shown that he himself claimed to have been born at or near Dublin.
The relevant entry reads-
1850 Federal Census Rochester NY 8th Ward 25 28
Margaret Tumathy, 62, b. Ireland
Lawrence Tumathy, 29, Gardener, b. Ireland
Ann Tumathy, 22, b. Ireland
Francis Tumathy, 19, Laborer, b. Ireland
As we know, the family memorial stone in the Holy Sepulchre Cemetery at Rochester gives another variant spelling of TUMUELTY.
It would appear that the family emigrated from Ireland to Rochester N.Y. when he was at a very young age.
I hope that this helps. |
Author: Colleen Andrews
Friday, 26 January 2001 - 10:43 am | | | I wonder: has anyone checked the 1840 Rochester census? |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 26 January 2001 - 09:01 pm | | Hi, Colleen:
One of the additional difficulties in researching Tumblety is that in his adult years he lived, if you will excuse something of a pun, somewhat of a tumbleweed existence, moving regularly and living in lodging houses which might hamper efforts to locate him in census records or on electoral rolls.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Colleen Andrews
Friday, 26 January 2001 - 09:32 pm | | Hello, Chris,
What would hamper attempts to find Tumblety in census records would not be whether he lived in lodging houses or not--after all we can track down women in workhouses on censuses. As long as the census is adequately indexed, he should show up no matter where he was--unless he was living under an alias, which would make things more difficult. The spelling "Tumathy" is a new one to me, especially in association with Tumblety. It seems the name Tumblety has been associated genealogically with Tumuelty/Tumilty for some time: a search of one inevitably brings up the others, but "Tumathy" is entirely new. There is a website for the Tumuelty Family Name & it includes a reference to Tumblety as well as a link to the casebook.
In any case, in 1840 Tumblety can't have been more than 10 years old. It would be worth searching the Rochester census records for 1840 to see if the family appears there; if not we can perhaps narrow the date of their emigration down to sometime between 1840 & 1850. Tumblety seems to have a frustrating habit of leaving a location just before or after a census was taken--he was in Rochester, NY in 1850 & London, Canada West by 1853, but what are the chances he was in Canada West as early as 1851, when he could have been caught by their census?! He also skipped out of Ontario before the 1871 census, the index for which is available online.
A search of the International Genealogical Index turned up no Francis Tumbletys or variations thereof of any date, nevermind circa 1830. This of course means nothing: Ireland is notoriously difficult to conduct research in due to its troubled political history, which has had the lamentable effect of destroying (generally by fire) most of its civil records. |
Author: Colleen Andrews
Friday, 26 January 2001 - 09:50 pm | | I found a website for Rochester's history that has a biography of Tumblety. It doesn't cite its sources but has some interesting info, like that the earliest record of the family is in the 1844 city directory. Also that Francis' father's name was James, although he seems to have died in Ireland because there is no record of his ever being in Rochester. There are also some chronological conflicts: this version has no mention of Tumblety ever being in Ontario (Canada West) from about 1853 to 1860. I have copied & pasted this biography below, it's found at www.vintageviews.org.
Dr. Francis Tumblety (1830-1903)
AKA Jack the Ripper?
Francis was born to James and Margaret Tumblety in Ireland sometime between July of 1830 and June of 1831. He was the youngest of eleven children: Patrick, Lawrence, Jane and Bridget (twins), Alice, Margaret, Ann, Julia, Elizabeth, and Mary. The date is uncertain but the family moved to Rochester, New York where they are first listed in the 1844 city directory. As was common at this period, the Tumblety name has several spellings: Tumblety, Tumuelty, Tumility, Twomblety with Lawrence Tumuelty, listed as a gardener, living at the corner of Sophia and Clarissa streets.
By 1848, Francis is known to neighbors and acquaintances as 'a dirty, awkward, ignorant, uncared-for, good for nothing boy... utterly devoid of education.' He was also known to peddle pornographic literature on the Erie Canal boats that passed through the city. At this time he also began working at a small drug store run by a Dr. Lispenard, said to have 'carried on a medical business of a disreputable kind' at the rear of the Reynolds Arcade. He lived for a short time at 6 Andrews St. with his brother Patrick, who was a fireman at Rapids.
It was during this period that Francis married. There is little known, other than he soon noticed that she was constantly flirting with other men. His worst suspicions were confirmed when he saw her enter a disreputable lodging house with a strange man. Enraged, he developed a hatred of all women.
Around 1850 Francis left Rochester for Detroit, where he starts a practice as an Indian herb doctor. The following year his father dies. 1854 must be a good year for the herb business, because after this date he always appears very wealthy.
He moves to Montreal in the fall of 1857, as a prominent physician, where he is asked to run in the provincial elections of 1857-8. With a grandiose and overbearing explanation in the local papers, he declines. He has his first problems with the law on September 23, he is arrested for attempting to abort the pregnancy of a local prostitute named Philomene Dumas. It was alleged that he sold her a bottle of pills and a liquid for the purpose. On October 1st he was released, and on the 25th, a verdict of ‘no true bill’ was reached. There was no trial.
In early 1858 or July 1860 (depending on sources) he moves to Saint Johns, Nova Scotia.
September of 1860 sees him in trouble with the authorities again when a patient named James Portmore died while taking medicine prescribed by Tumblety. After a bizarre coroner's inquest where Tumblety questioned Portmore’s widow as to the cause of death, a verdict of 'manslaughter' is returned. He flees, crossing the border, to the town of Calais, Maine, and from there on to Boston.
At this point his method changes, he now wears a gaudy military style outfit (which he designed himself) and rides a white horse, leading two greyhounds, with a mounted valet. He is constantly moving, working for short periods of time in New York, Jersey City, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, and a variety of other cities.
With the outbreak of the Civil War, Tumblety moves to Washington DC and claims to be an army surgeon on General McClellan's staff, and friends with President Lincoln, General Grant, and every other well known political figures. While in Washington, he gives an all male dinner party (he calls it a symposium), lecturing his guests on the evils of women, and proudly displays his extensive collection of preserved female body parts.
Dr. Tumblety's next move is to St. Louis, where he is arrested for wearing a military uniform with medals he did not deserve. Tumblety claims that this is harassment, persecution from his medical competitors. He moves to Carondelet, Missouri and is briefly jailed on the same charge.
He moves back to St. Louis and is arrested again, this time in connection with the Lincoln assassination. He was traveling using the name J. H. Blackburn. This was a bad choice for an alias, Dr. L.P. Blackburn was wanted for an alleged plot to infect the North with blankets carrying yellow fever. Another rumor soon followed that he had employed one of the assassination conspirators. He was cleared in both cases. Tumblety writes and publishes The Kidnapping of Dr. Tumblety, a pamphlet intended to clear his name. The book is a series of paranoid ramblings and fraudulent testimonials.
During the late 1860's he travels to London, Berlin, and then on to Liverpool in 1874. It is here he meets Sir Henry Hall Caine, who was bisexual and it is strongly believed they had an affair that lasted until 1876 when Dr. Tumblety returns to New York City. He is noted to hang around the Post Office and have a 'seeming mania for the company of young men and grown-up youths.'
The next decade is a calm period consisting of extensive travel across both America and Europe accompanied by various young, male traveling companions. In 1880 he files a suit against the mother of one of these youths, Mrs. Lyons claiming she stole $7000 in bonds from him. The Dr. had given the boy Power of Attorney to $100,000 in bonds and when Tumblety returned from a trip, the boy and $7,000 in bonds were missing.
In June of 1888 he returns to Liverpool, and takes lodging at 22 Batty Street. He is thought to have had strong Irish sympathies, and may have been involved in their political activities at this time. He was arrested on November 7, on charges of gross indecency and indecent assault with force and arms against four men between July 27 and November 2. The eight charges were euphemisms for homosexual activities.
He was charged on suspicion of the Whitechapel murders on the 12th, and was bailed on November 16. A hearing was held on November 20 at the Old Bailey, and the trial postponed until December 10. On November 24, using the alias ‘Frank Townsend’ he escaped to France, and from there took the steamer La Bretagne to New York City.
New York officials knew he was on his way to the city and had the port of entry watched for him, but he entered the country undetected. Several American newspapers reported that Scotland Yard Inspector Andrews did follow a suspect to New York City, though Tumblety was not named specifically.
New York City's Chief Inspector Byrnes discovered Tumblety had rooms at 79 East Tenth Street at the home of Mrs. McNamara, and had him under surveillance for several days. Byrnes could not arrest him because, 'there is no proof of his complicity in the Whitechapel murders, and the crime for which he was under bond in London is not extraditable.'
New York City papers carried daily stories of Tumblety’s surveillance by Byrnes’s, until December 5th, when he disappears again. It is interesting to note that while there was extensive coverage in several American newspapers about Tumblety, not a word was written about him in the British press. It has been suggested that Scotland Yard wanted to avoid the embarrassment of losing their top suspect.
Tumblety disappears until 1893 when he reappears in Rochester, living with his sister.
On May 28, 1903 Dr. Francis Tumblety dies at St. John's Hospital in St. Louis, a man of considerable wealth. (The St. Louis Post Dispatch reported his death under the name "Dr Francis Tumbleton") An inventory of his personal belongings at the time of his death included some extremely expensive jewelry, $1000 in bonds, over $430 in cash, and two cheap brass rings, valued at $2 to $3. These rings match the description of those taken from the body of Annie Chapman, the Ripper's second victim. (Are these the trophies of a serial killer?) His will requests that he be buried in the family plot in Rochester.
In 1913 John J. Littlechild, Chief of CID Special Branch Scotland Yard writes to journalist G. R. Sims stating that ‘a very likely suspect,’ in the Ripper killings was Dr. Tumblety.
There are several points of circumstantial evidence that point to Dr. Tumblety as today's most likely suspect in the Ripper killings.
Fits ‘serial killer profile.’
Known for his hatred of women
Wife had worked as a prostitute while married to him
Anatomical knowledge
Murders ceased when he fled
Demonstrated ability to avoid police capture.
Uses of aliases
Known to police at time as a bad character
Scotland Yard contacted New York Police for a copy of his handwriting just after the Eddowes death.
Pursued to New York by one of the three detective inspectors assigned to the Ripper case after jumping bail following a misdemeanor
Unusually high bail for a misdemeanor
Rich enough to finance his time in the East End
Prior behavior in the USA/Canada (performing an illegal abortion, manslaughter of a patient)
The rings in his possession at time of death
Collected female body parts in jars
Peddled porn as a teen
Acquaintances in America believed he was the Ripper
Matches most descriptions of eye witnesses
Gross indecency charge shows his deviancy
Letters to Henry Hall Caine shows his changeable temper
Littlechild letter shows that police thought him a prime suspect
Released from police custody at time of Mary Kelley's death
Had lodgings in Liverpool, and he knew the East End
His Liverpool lodgings was on a courtyard, offering several paths to escape on different streets.
Strong evidence that he was the Batty Street Lodger
` |
Author: Colleen Andrews
Saturday, 03 March 2001 - 04:58 pm | | | I have finally obtained a copy of the book Jack the Ripper: First American Serial Killer by Stewart Evans & Paul Gainey & I find to my annoyance that it IS the exact same book, word-for-word, as The Lodger, which I already own. I was under the impression this was an updated version that at least contained more accurate information about Tumblety, ie. that he was born in Ireland about 1830. There is no such revelation here; it still says he was born around 1833 in Canada as far as is known. |
Author: Christopher T George
Saturday, 03 March 2001 - 10:21 pm | | Hi Colleen:
The paperback edition of Jack the Ripper: First American Serial Killer is different to the hardback of The Lodger because it contains information in two addenda that the authors say they found since the appearance of the hardback. I don't have the softback of The Lodger, if it was published in softback, so I can't speak to any similarity between the paperback editions of The Lodger and First American Serial Killer. It was my impression that the information on Tumblety's birth in Ireland is newer information than in First American Serial Killer anyway. I am sorry if what I told you may have misled you that it was in that edition of the authors' book.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Anthony Green
Wednesday, 14 March 2001 - 05:23 pm | | Hi, everyone.
Some thoughts on the pronunciation of Tumblety´s name.
It is not uncommon today to get wrong the proununciation of the names of nineteenth-century writers, whose standard forms used in the individual´s own publications should be checked against non-standard forms in private correspondence, press reports, etc. One of the advantages of the still somewhat inconsistent and non-standarised spellings of names used in the nineteenth century is precisely the ability to retrieve the correct pronounciation, something which will be much more difficult for future historians of our own era except where recordings survive.
A case in point is that of the famous archaeologist Sir Austin Henry (or Henry Austen) Layard (1817-94), excavator in Assyria and Babylonia (modern Iraq) (cf. the biography by Gordon Waterfield, Layard of Nineveh, London: Murray 1963). Today his name is consistently pronounced "lay-ard" by Assyriologists and historians, but Professor Henry Saggs has demonstrated from the variant spellings in his personal correspondence and by information about more recent descendants that the name was pronounced "laird" (H.W.F. Saggs, "Introduction" to H.A. Layard´s Nineveh and its Remains, London: Routledge & Kegan Paul 1970, p. 1, n. 2).
In the same way, the pronunciation of the name of Ripper-suspect Francis Tumblety was almost certainly not tumble-ty, as consistently pronounced by Ripperologists in conversation, lectures, TV programmes and videos - and, I noticed on a recent visit, in the commentary at the London Dungeon - but toom-blety. (Shirley Harrison in The Diary of Jack the Ripper, London: Blake 1998, consistently misspells the name "Tumbelty", reflecting the wrong pronunciation.) The long first syllable is confirmed by the spelling "Twomblety" (with the two- undoubtedly to be pronounced as in the number two) in a press report (quoted by Stewart Evans and Paul Gainey, The Lodger - the arrest and escape of Jack the Ripper, London: Century 1995 = Jack the Ripper - first American serial killer, New York: Kodansha 1998, p. 215), while the ending -blety rather than -ty seems to be required by the verse metre of a poem about Tumblety possibly composed by the man himself ("Dr Tumblety", printed in St Johns Albion, and quoted by Evans and Gainey, ibid. pp. 191-192).
Tony |
Author: Bryan Stebelton
Thursday, 15 March 2001 - 10:50 am | | | Hello all,I like Tumblety as a suspect,I believe either Tumblety or Kosminski are the two strongest suspects.I have a little problem with the homosexual aspect of Tumblety but I still have strong feelings as to his possible guilt.My main reason, other than his just being present in London at the time of the murders,is this,The police reports and I believe inquest testimoy(re:Annie Chapman)states that an American doctor,attempted to procure uteri at at least two London hospitals,I believe the reporting doctors would have no reason whatsoever to fabricate these stories,thus a legitimate connection to at least a few of the murders,I have the notion that there is no legitimate scientific reason for the procurement of said organs, that in fact he collected the organs as a sick fetish,which is not uncommon amongst serial killers.I would like to know if anyone has ever heard of the reporting doctors being known to have positivley IDing Tumblety as the American doctor in question? Furthermore I would love to know if Tumblety and Kosminski ever met.I know I'll probably get lambasted for this idea, but just think about it,it is not at all unheard of for partners of the like to exist in the annals of murder or serial murder.The fact that Tumblety was indeed a cunning individual and probably highly intelligent,was likely capable of gaining the assistance of a less intelligent,insane individualsuch as Kosminski.It could be that Tumblety was not present at all murders,but the theory lends credence to the crime where two perps were seen.Like I said I don't expect anyone to jump on this wagon,but it leaves a few questions to answer,and least in my mind is not unlikely.It's more in the realm of possibility than the royal conspiracy,Lewis Carrol,and many others.I welcome any feedback or info anyone has gratly. |
Author: Bryan Stebelton
Thursday, 15 March 2001 - 11:06 am | | | Sorry, a brief follow up. Schwartz saw two men,the descriptions are not all that dissimalar to Tumblety and Kosminski,aside from the age of Tumblety.The fact that "Lipski" was heard to be said,could this be a mistake where the witness only caught a portion of Tumblety saying the name of his accomplice? And lastly the fact that Liz Stride was the only victim in which abdominal mutilations were not committed,possibly because the crime was believed to be botched by one or both of the men.Perhaps considering the ferocity of Eddowes mutilations were due to anger at the interuption of the previous attack,by the hand of the actual cutter.Oh my God I do believe I'm on a rant! Better quit while I'm at least making sense to myself. |
Author: Martin Fido
Friday, 16 March 2001 - 07:32 am | | Dear Bryan,
This is a response to your appeal to me posted on another board.
I spotted your ingenious and discreetly tentative theorizing when it first appeared, and deliberately made no response, as there is no reason on earth why you shouldn't enjoy yourself examining the facts and trying to devise new pattern; and I should be a pompous and fatuous bore if I leaped in to say 'that isn't the way I do history' every time anybody did it.
Can I just say that I have never thought Kosminsky was the Ripper, largely because he was at large for two years during which no murders took place; and that similar liberty, added to the homosexual problem you identify, has always led me to see Tumblety as an unlikely suspect.
Do you mind if I just leave it at that?
With all good wishes,
Martin F |
Author: Bryan Stebelton
Friday, 16 March 2001 - 08:56 am | | | Thanks Martin,I must admit the two year at large thing bothered me as well,but I found a couple of possible explanations for that.Looking to modern serial murders,I noted the time lag between Jeffrey Dahmers first and second killings,and to a lesser degree the Zodiac killers crimes.(lesser Degree due too the fact no one seems to agree on his positive victims either).Also there were subsuquent murders in whitechapel in that period,only not looking to be the work of jack,I my theory after Tumblety flees,the brains(if you will)of the team is gone,and leaves the other to his vices,hence partnership dissolved,subsuquent crimes not easily recognizable.I site Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole's crimes together,and apart as at least a possibility to the troubling question.I only wish I could find a link between Tumblety and Kosminski,but I fear so little is known factually about Kosminski,that that might proove to be impossible.Oh well it's the hunt thats exciting,not the kill. |
Author: Martin Fido
Friday, 16 March 2001 - 11:03 am | | I'm not trying to throw spanners into our works, but observing that Dahmer was very young when (as I think) the frustration of being abandoned by his parents led him to commit his first murder; an experience I think he probably found as much traumatic as gratifying. And in Zodiac's case, are we really sure that the take-up murders were by the same hand? Likewise, with Lucas and Toole, the former at least told so many lies that I'm not sure that I'd base anything on him...
Can't really help you in linking Kosminski and Tumblety, except for what I'm sure you'll aleady have noted - both had centres south of the Whitechapel road which, itself, was apparently the southern limit of the Met's house-to-house, despite the occurrence of the murder in Berner Street.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Bryan Stebelton
Friday, 16 March 2001 - 11:29 am | | | Martin, all very good points, a couple of which I hadn't thought of. I guess thats why I chose to begin posting recently, although I've visited the site many times, to get an understanding of everyones theories, and how they are reached. Also to get the feedback of true experts such as yourself and all the other posters. I wasn't trying to prove necessarily, the two year lapse, more like drawing comparisons to what I believe to be similar cases. I think any ripperologist would be cheating himself if he didn't do comparisons to other sexual serial killers, as afterall there all related in as much as there perpatrators were surely of like mind. thanks, Bryan |
Author: Martin Fido
Friday, 16 March 2001 - 01:53 pm | | Did you see that Lucas died, this week, by the way, Bryan?
Martin |
Author: Triston Marc Bunker
Friday, 16 March 2001 - 06:44 pm | | Martin,
Firstly, may I say, I had a sh*te growing up. It didn't make me a serial killer, just very strange. Can you tell me the divide and what makes it ? (Not a bop at you, just a general question).
Adding to the Tumblety thing (I've mentioned this before) Did anyone else notice the name "Crowley" on his charge sheet. Was this Crowley related to Alaister Crowley ? And have the Occult brigade picked up on it yet ? In fact, has anyone picked up on it and what sort of research has there been ?
Tris |
Author: Martin Fido
Friday, 16 March 2001 - 08:58 pm | | Tris,
I don't think anyone can help you explainthe complexity of humanity that means that one person seems driven by wrteched childhood circumstances to lifelong instability andpossibly criminality; another is impelled to brilliant success against allthe odds, and yet more lead quite orinary lives.
I don't know of anyone who'd noted the name Crowley before. I'd be surprised if there were any connection with Aleister since his parents were perfectly respectable Plymouth Brethren with a provincial background, I believe.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Saturday, 17 March 2001 - 09:18 am | | Hello All. I meekly suggest that it would be safest to stick to the cry of 'Lipski!' and not interpret it as something else. As a Hungarian, it is possible that Mr. Schartz would be more likely to distinguish between various eastern-European suffixes than English speakers. And possibly being Jewish, he might also have been more accutely aware of the slur 'Lipski'. It's easy to see how far this speculation might go. The Michael Kidneyites suggest 'Lizzy!', the Kosminskites suggest 'minski!', the Chapmanites suggest 'lowski!' and, I --probably nearly alone in harboring any suspicions whatsover against Mr. Ostrog-- might suggest 'Sub-LINSKY! (an alias of his). But I think (again, meekly) that it really probably was 'Lipski!'
But I'll get to my point. Being completely skeptical when it comes to rules & generalities, I must wonder whether or not it has been proven that a)homosexuals don't ever kill women; b) serial killers don't cross gender lines; c) Tumblety --or Druitt for that matter--were definetely homosexual or exclusively homosexual anyway; d)these were even 'sexual crimes' at all. They probably were, but the rate is amazing. The fantasist likes to contemplate and remember his crime before moving on to the next. So maybe we have something else here. And certainly someone killing at this rate would be quickly caught, if he/she/they didn't leave the area soon. |
Author: Bryan Stebelton
Saturday, 17 March 2001 - 12:17 pm | | | R.J, true we all(I can't really say all) most of us being removed from the crimes byover a hundred years now , must attempt to glean what we can from the known history."Lipski" is a known person,who was hanged for murder so it is quite likley that that is what was said, however Schwartz being the best wittness in the case makes Stride and Eddowes murders of the greatest impotance. And yes we grasp at straws thats what needs to be done to further the solving of the crimes, or at the least making sense of it given the little that is known about most suspects. I don't know that I would say definitley Tumblety was homosexual.Maybe bi-sexual,he was purportedly married,to a woman.And just because a man supposedly hates woman doesn't mean he kills them indiscriminatley. But all good points R.J. thanks , Bryan |
Author: Martin Fido
Saturday, 17 March 2001 - 01:43 pm | | Very useful reservations to contemplate, RJP. I'm sure there are homosexuals who have killed women. But I can't think of any who have done so for relief from sexual tension.
Paedophile serial killers, on the other hand, may certainly cross gender lines. Arthur Shawcross killed Jack Blake and Karen Hill before graduating after prison to adult heterosexual serial killer.
There is absolutely no PROOF that either Tumblety or Druitt were homosexual. You have to assess the probabilities, noting especially that Tumblety was charged with homosexual assault (and skipped bail before he could come to court), and Druitt was sacked from prep school teaching for an unnamed 'very serious offence'. Few, if any of us who went to English prep schools have any doubt what that means! (School authorities would cheerfully spell out embezzling funds or pawning the athletics cups because publicizing those things don't do any long term harm. But parents are queasy about sending their little dears to schools where they're going to be taught practical buggery. Although everybody who's been to the institutions knows perfectly well that it happens all the time. Today the private schools are even more jumpy about drugs - though once again, everybody who has anything to do with adolescents knows that they practically all have access to a wide range of mind-bending substances, and undoubtedly most of them make some sort of experiments).
And if you're dubious about the Ripper being sexually motivated, you're in the good company of Jon, and presumably the Donstonians, and the interesting company of Maybrickians, and the Wilding and Abrahamson combination-killer theorisers who all to a greater or lesser extent put forward alternatives.
All the best
Martin F |
Author: Bryan Stebelton
Sunday, 18 March 2001 - 11:47 am | | | Hello all, didn't see Lucas died Martin,no great loss to the world I fear.And not of lot of help as you noted in learning about serial killers,due to his little aversion to the truth,and an ego the size of Texas.Anyway,in my opinion,Ive found that serial killers adhere somewhat loosley to a standard when it comes to chosing victims. Straight men kill women.Gay men kill men.But however I do believe the serial killers own mindset comes into play.As each serial killer seems to be themselves superior to the public in general.A few samples of deviation from the homo sexual thing.Son of Sam/couples/hated both sexes because of his inability in love.Gacy/Young men/I don't think Gacy was necessarily gay was he I thought he was married?Zodiac/unsolved,but likley same as Berkowitz,only I believe alot more intelligent.I'll let somebody else get a word in. Thanks,Bryan |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 19 March 2001 - 05:55 am | | Gacy was gay, and had been in trouble before for using his position as an employer to seduce or try to seduce young men.
Martin F |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Monday, 19 March 2001 - 08:18 am | | Bryan, hello. Certainly Tumblety was homosexual in some degree, but he was evidently married at one time, and it is possible that he was an 'equal opportunity lecher'. One of his partners was bi-sexual. Regardless, I've never quite 'bought' the idea that a killer of women couldn't prefer the company of men. There seems to be reasonable indications that Tumblety had an obsessive hatred of women, and at least one psychologist (Dr. Forshaw, lately of what was once 'Bedlam' Hospital) believe these to be more hate crimes than sex crimes. Of course, that's just one man's opinion. I just don't think that it is safe to discount Tumblety (as many do) merely because of his apparent homosexuality. He's a solid suspect in other respects.
As for Druitt, Martin, as usual, argues with wit and intelligence. I would say, however, that there is some indication that Druitt might well have been 'let go' from the Blackheath school on the last day of the school term. I'm not sure if this would have been the case if he were leaping on the young boys. Still, his 'serious trouble' dismissal seems to have led to his suicide, so perhaps it was a social disgrace of some sort. It's enigmatic as hell. Probably Martin is correct.
Best wishes. |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 19 March 2001 - 08:33 am | | Hi RJP,
Perhaps I should add that I don't think that groping little boys would indicate a sexual orientation that necessarily prevented Druitt from also having heterosexual appetites, whether normal or sadistically bizarre.
Martin F |
Author: Bryan Stebelton
Monday, 19 March 2001 - 11:54 am | | hello both,
I agree you can't necsasarily count on a serial killer,to follow any strict pattern when it comes to sexual orientation.I think regardless of Tumblety's orientation he is still a very intresting suspect.And to the abscence of further murders committed by him, isn't it possible(I think i've read it somewhere)that age is a big factor in serial murderers?Whether they just to put it plainly retire,if not caught at a certain age? |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 19 March 2001 - 05:22 pm | | I don't know of any cases of their 'just retiring', Bryan. Peter Kurten, the Dusseldorff monster was nearly 50 when he was caught, but had the extraordinary good luck to have got away with it for years. They usually start young - (Christie's the odd man out in this respect) - but then go on until they're stopped, which, thank goodness, is usually before too long.
Martin F |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 19 March 2001 - 06:03 pm | | Dear Bryan,
There is no serial-killer's handbook...yet. But we must not forget those professional killers who study murder as an art and scientist. Many murders
are disguised as accident, suicides, and in the case of my local GP...old age!
The truth is that there are so many murders taking place...like thefts...they are incalculable
The trick is...but never mind.I must reassure the Casebook viewers that while Rosemary is on the case...you can rest easy?
Rosemary (PI) |
Author: Jon
Monday, 19 March 2001 - 08:09 pm | | R.J.
Carefull not to put too much reliance on brother Williams 'suicide' note. |
Author: Tom Wescott
Monday, 19 March 2001 - 10:35 pm | | Hello all,
How can we be so sure that Tumblety was gay? It does seem so based on how he dressed and carried himself around, but is there any actual record of his homosexuality? As for Druitt, I believe he was let go from Blackheath due to embezzlement. A good look at the evidence makes this seem a more likely hypothesis than him having been gay. A letter from me to The Ripperologist regarding this will appear in their next issue. Really, the only reason people think Druitt was gay was because he was fired from a School for boys. I have been fired from a job before, but that doesn't make me a crotch-goblin. I think, at least in Druitt's case, it was a hasty conclusion to jump to.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Monday, 19 March 2001 - 10:37 pm | | My guess is that Monty probably was caught doing
something with one of his charges, but late in
the term. It couldn't have been anything that
actually killed a student, because that would have
made the newspapers. In 1860, a headmaster of a
private school in Eastborne, Thomas Hopley, got
a sentence of four years penal service when his
punishment (flogging) of a student named Reginald
Channel Cancellor caused that boys death. Hopley,
a particularly dense individual, insisted that
he was a model Christian schoolmaster, and the
victim of misrepresentation. Hopley's case is
not the only one of a murderous headmaster or
teacher (Eugene Aram heads the list in 1745, and
in 1870 John Selby Watson slew his wife), but
it is the only one that involved the death of a
schoolboy by a schoolmaster that I have located.
If the incident that led to his apparent suicide
was tied to any incident with a student, Monty
probably would have preferred suicide than the
disgrace of a prison sentence.
Jeff |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Tuesday, 20 March 2001 - 05:24 am | | Hi All,
The fact that the reason for Druitt's dismissal was never revealed by the school does indeed suggest to me that it was bound up in the shame and social stigma attached to what comes all too naturally in boys' prep schools, and I don't mean pinching postal orders, school funds or sporting trophies. (I cannot agree more with Martin here - my mother taught in one, and my brothers were taught in another, so I could tell a few stories!) The headmaster had to attract and keep his pupils, and parents would have been aware that a teacher had left or been sacked, and would no doubt be wondering why, especially when learning of Druitt's sorry and soggy end. I think, therefore, it would have been in the school's interest to reveal, or perhaps allow to be leaked, any misdemeanour that didn't involve one of the staff buggering the boys senseless. In fact, I heard of a case in recent years in which a teacher, who had been having sex with his pupils on and off (!) for years, was finally sacked for the more 'acceptable' crime of administering some form of corporal punishment - so, as far as the school's reputation was concerned, no 'interfering' took place.
Obviously, a case can be made for Druitt, a young male interested in law, teaching and the game of cricket, to think fondly of a watery grave, rather than face his friends and associates, whether he has been caught with his hands in the till or - ahem - elsewhere. I just think we would be more likely to know about it if it was the former, when you think of how you would prefer to have a relative, close friend or associate remembered.
Love,
Caz |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Tuesday, 20 March 2001 - 07:17 am | | | Considering that Tumblety was a charged with four seperate counts of 'gross indecency with another male' on four seperate dates during the time of the Whitechapel murders (Evans & Gainey, p 271), it can hardly be argued that Dr. T wasn't involved in homosexuality. I just think that this doesn't disqualify from being a strong suspect. One has to wonder why a man of considerable wealth was slumming it in the East End. |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Tuesday, 20 March 2001 - 11:54 am | | Hi RJ,
The question posed in your final sentence may have been answered tolerably well by your first. 
Love,
Caz |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 20 March 2001 - 12:55 pm | | Hi, Caz and Jeff:
Couldn't it be that Monty was caught at "silly mid-on" rather than being caught in the act of buggery? 
Sorry, couldn't resist. For our Yankee and other non-British or British Commonwealth brethren, "silly mid-on" is a cricketing term for a catching position to the left of a right-handed batsman. I understand it gets its name from the foolishness of any fielder who takes that position given that the batsman is likely to whack the ball in that direction. "Silly mid-on" and "silly mid-off" are rather quaint terms used for positions on the field. Sound more like names invented by the Goons or Monty Python, though, don't they!!!***???
"Meanwhile, at Kingston Park, Monty Druitt, just shy of achieving his century, was dismissed 10 minutes before tea getting an inside edge onto his pad and giving a simple catch to Frank Tumblety at silly mid-on." 
Chris George |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Tuesday, 20 March 2001 - 02:00 pm | | Chris,
I reckon he was caught behind!!
excuse me please J
Rick. |
Author: Tom Wescott
Tuesday, 20 March 2001 - 03:33 pm | | Hello all,
If Druitt was afflicted with homosexuality, pedophilia, or some other perversion, and the school knew of it, they certaintly wouldn't let it leak. Druitt would have known that. Therefore, public embarrasment wouldn't have been a motive for suicide.
R.J.,
Thanks for those facts. As you can tell, I'm a bit rusty on my Tumblety.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
|
|
|
|
