|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Did Jack leave London after MJK?
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: General Discussion :
Did Jack leave London after MJK?
Author: Paul Carpenter
Wednesday, 13 December 2000 - 09:53 am |        | I am fairly new to these boards, so this question may have been taken up elsewhere, but what work has been done to identify possible killings by JTR in other parts of the country post-Miller's Court? As many people postulate that serial killers don't stop until they are caught (and from the available evidence it seems that he wasn't), and given that the known suspects who committed suicide or were otherwise incarcerated after MJK remain contentious, is it feasable that JTR may have fled London? After the uproar that the killing of MJK presumably caused, maybe even this boldest of killers sought to continue his work elsewhere.
There were no shortage of slums or prostitutes in other parts of Britain (or indeed anywhere else in the world), and the police forces of, say, Leeds or Manchester were even less likely to be able to detect the Ripper than the reasonably advanced detective force of the metropolis.
I am planning to start research in my own local newspaper archives (I am based in Leeds), and I would be interested to hear from others who have started on this line of reasoning.
Cheers,
Carps |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 13 December 2000 - 12:16 pm | | Welcome Paul
Yes, the idea that Jack moved on is not new. It has often been suggested that he may have skipped town, been incarcerated, died or gone abroad.
There were some mutilation type murders in Nicaragua following the killing of MJK. Also some have suggested a couple of mutilation type murders in the USA. No other similar murders are known to have been committed anywhere in either England, USA or around the world.
The crucial point is "No Ripper-type killings" have been discovered. Those committed in Nicaragua & USA were NOT similar.
So, to date we know of no other murders being committed.
Regards, Jon
(in Canada, but also from Leeds) |
Author: Judith Stock
Wednesday, 13 December 2000 - 02:38 pm | | Dear Paul,
A second to Jon's welcome. This seems to be the question that brings everything to a halt. We know from sad experience that very few of these guys can, or will, stop without assistance from the police. Therefore, we are left with three options: 1) he left London for parts unknown, but as Jon has stated there are no similar killings reported anywhere. This doesn't mean he stopped killing; it simply means he changed his m.o. After Kelly, I doubt he would WANT to stop, OR change his m.o. since he probably enjoyed himself immensely with her. 2) He was jailed for another offense OR was confined to an asylum for something unrelated to the crimes. This can become a lengthy and ongoing investigation, as
following this line of enquiry could take you to all the jails, prisons and asylums in the UK to examine EVERY inmate who entered after 9 November 1888. I don't think limiting onesself to a type or style of incarceration (or inmate) can be very productive, as he may have been put away for stealing a knife, money, or even attacking his neighbor for an imagined slight. The options are endless! 3) My own personal favorite----he died. This line means checking out the deaths and backgrounds of EVERYONE who died from.....oh, pick a time frame...9 November to say, 1 January.
I doubt he could have restrained himself much after that date....the desire for another Kelly must have been insurmountable. My personal choice is that he died some stupid, ignominious death.......like being run over by a beer wagon.
Welcome to the lunacy....
Regards,
Judith |
Author: Diana
Wednesday, 13 December 2000 - 05:45 pm | | | I would like to suggest that the murder of Carrie Brown AKA Old Shakespeare, a New York City prostitute in 1891 was similar. |
Author: Judith Stock
Thursday, 14 December 2000 - 12:52 am | | Hi, Diana,
Rather than debate Carrie as a Ripper victim, I have a question. As preface, I will accept Brown as Jack's. The question is "where was he in the intervening time?"
The problem with including Brown means one of two possible things: 1) Jack was still operating (sorry about that......what a Freudian slip!), and he had killed during the interval between Kelly and Brown. In support of that is the premise that almost all serial killers can contain themselves for a brief time, but in due course MUST kill again. ALSO, intervals almost invariably grow shorter as the string of victims grows lengthier. 2) The mutilations of Brown were not on par with Kelly's and since he would have again been killing indoors with privacy and time, the mutilations should have been, if this is even conceivable, even worse than Kelly's. Escalation is another hallmark of the serial killer; what gave him pleasure at the early stages of his career doesn't satisfy for long.
Does any of this make any sense?
Regards,
Judy |
Author: Paul Carpenter
Thursday, 14 December 2000 - 05:19 am | | Hi Chaps, thanks for your thoughts - I especially like the idea of JTR being knocked down (incidentally, there's a Spike Milligan book where he does a diary of JTR's wife: "Jack home late again, and covered in blood - he was knocked down by an offal cart"). Jon - you will be pleased to know that the mighty Leeds United are a force to be reckoned with again!
I appreciate that no Ripper style murders are known beyond the ones in Whitechapel, but given the obviously fragmented nature of the research that has been carried out over the years, I can't help but wonder what gaps exist in our knowledge. Almost by default, research is mainly carried out in London, and probably in one or two of the other major cities of the UK (for example, the Yorkshire Post is often quoted). However - without even thinking about the possibility of JTR fleeing the country entirely - there will be gaps in our knowledge of that time.
For example, if a Ripper style murder happened in (purely for example) Devizes in 1888, what do we know about the line that the press would have taken there, or how the police (if they existed at all) would have broken the news, or shielded the truth, or carried out their investigation?
From everyone's comments, it seems clear that at least some research has been done, and that this research to date has not uncovered any evidence of further JTR murders in other parts of the country. However, as the discovery of the Littlechild proves, there is always a chance that fresh evidence can be unturned in unlikely sources.
Taking then, as a basis, that there are still probably significant archives that have not been looked into by Ripperologists, I wonder whether there could be a mechanism for logging which archives have been researched by which individuals, thereby making research that bit more methodological, and aiding future researchers.
Sorry to go on at such length, but I just wanted to make the point that I am not merely interested in armchair theorising, or a particular pet theory of my own, but more in the process of research. It seems that there might be an assumption that we have all of the information available to state categorically that 'no further JTR murders took place anywhere in the UK in the months and years succeeding November 1888', but until we know that every archive of the period has been searched we can't categorically state this.
Cheers for listening/reading,
Carps |
Author: Judith Stock
Thursday, 14 December 2000 - 12:55 pm | | CARPS?? That sounds awfully fishy, to me....oh, lord, I'm doing it again!
I appreciate your frustration regarding this issue, and agree that until everything has been searched, we cannot say "this is the end." If you have wandered the Casebook at all, you'll know that an enormous number of newspaper sources are present. There are no small, local-type papers represented, but that could be a task of such enormity, it boggles the mind. Just finding the papers, never mind any article about a "ripper style" killing could take years.
I do think, however, that if a killing of that type had occurred in the UK anywhere near to 1888, it would have been widely reported. This was the hottest news of the day, and I doubt that even a local "rag" would have covered it up, or played down the importance of such a crime.
Good luck on your research, Paul, and have a happy Christmas,
Judy |
Author: Diana
Thursday, 14 December 2000 - 09:08 pm | | Carrie Brown was probably killed by Arbie La Bruckman, a Moroccan sailor who worked on cattle boats. The boats were sometimes in London, sometimes in New York, sometimes elsewhere? The sailing of La Bruckman's ship, if he was JTR, would explain the cessation of the London murders.
Current research is being carried on to try to discover from shipping records the "where and when" of La Bruckman's career. |
Author: Paul Carpenter
Friday, 15 December 2000 - 07:15 am | | "A bit fishy!!??" Derisory trumpet fanfare and/or cymbal crash for that one, Diana!
Anyway, I agree that it would be an enormous task to research all local paper archives, but it is only enormous if you look at it as a whole. If everyone who uses these boards were to research just one paper from their local library or whatever then we could turn over quite a lot of information. Pooling this information would possibly be the bigger task...
With regards to your observation that any such murder would have been reported, I don't doubt this at all. However, with the major media's attention remaining focussed on Whitechapel until well into 1889, then local sensations in the provinces could well have not been picked up on. (JTR was also known as the Whitechapel Murderer, after all, the name indicating a belief that he was only striking in this area).
Such stories would also certainly have been lost to the collective memory. Until Cullen started writing in the 50s and 60s, was JTR the hugely well-known figure that he is today? If there was a Dewsbury Ripper active in late 1888 to early 1889, who would have noticed or cared? It was only Dewsbury... Would the police have made a link between the two? I don't know - but I'd like to find out if I can...
There was another point I wanted to make. But I've forgotten it. If I remember, I'll let you know...
Anyhoo, I am now going to eat some disgusting sandwich-style concoction from the vending machine. Merry Christmas to one and all.
Carps |
Author: Paul Carpenter
Friday, 15 December 2000 - 07:46 am | | I am now going to bactrack a bit and say that I think that there the fact that a silent film (Pandora's Box?) was made about the Ripper in 1928 that obviously he hadn't faded from the popular imagination at all. Lack of coffee, I guess... and lack of rigourous thought on my part.
I shall now slumber for a while. |
Author: Paul Carpenter
Friday, 15 December 2000 - 07:47 am | | | And I would now like to add that my last post was irredeemably scrambled (syntactically-speaking)... but I think you got my drift... |
|
|
|
|
