Author: Jon
Saturday, 23 September 2000 - 09:43 am |        |
A couple of authors have suggested that the police suspicion of this man is what is really behind the general idea that the Ripper was a Doctor/Medical man.
It has also been suggested that Macnaghten may have been refering to Sanders when he named Druitt, ie "his own family believed him to have been the murderer". And that Druitt was described as a Doctor.
I am interested in any further info that anyone may have come across involving Sanders. Anything that is not already available in Sugden's 'Complete History' or The A-Z.
Jon Ogan researched this person for Ripperana, did Jon come up with any info that absolutely discounts Sanders from these crimes?
According to the A-Z, Sanders was placed in an Asylum in 1881. Medical certificates (Feb. 1887) indicate Sanders condition had worsened, being subject to attacks of violence, made unprovoked attacks on friends, tyrannized his household (was he not in an Asylum in 1887?)
He was in Holloway Asylum in 1891. Transfered to West Malling - 1896 (Begg), though Sugden has Sanders in West Malling throughout the period of the crimes. This needs clarification.
Sanders was transfered to Heavitree Asylum in 1899, where he stayed until he died in 1901.
I am interested as to why this man is suspected, and that so many Home Office memo's showed an interest in him.
Abberline visited Sanders home address in Abercorn Place, just to be told by his mother, that her son had gone abroad. Possibly a euphemism on her part for 'being detained' in an Asylum. Or simply, she was covering for him for another reason.
Confirmation of John Sanders whereabout in 1888 are critical to him being removed from the list of suspects.
Does anyone know of any further discoveries concerning this man?
Regards, Jon |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 24 September 2000 - 09:32 am | |
Hi, Jon:
I have nothing new to add here about John William Smith Sanders except to say that the statement that "the police suspicion of this man is what is really behind the general idea that the Ripper was a Doctor/Medical man" is offbase. There was a general suspicion of medical men due to the statements that the mutilations needed anatomical skill. The memoirs of D. G. Halsted, a student at the time at the London Hospital, Whitechapel, bear out the impression that doctors generally were under suspicion, not just by the police but by the general public.
Chris George |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 24 September 2000 - 10:48 am | |
Thankyou Chris
The "off-base" statements came from JtR, A-Z page 383-384. Sugden's 'Complete History' pg 163 & Begg's 'Uncensored facts' pg 68-70.
Prior to Chapman's murder we were hearing of a 'crazy Jew' (Leather Apron), then following Chapman's inquest a 'medical' focus was perceived. Even some hindsite questions about Llewellyn's whereabouts were raised by some.
This is when Sanders came into perspective, and the 'medical fraternity' were brought under the 'mikerscope'.
I dont recall any mention of Doctors being suspected in the cases of Tabram & Nichols at the time of the crimes.
Only as regards Llewellyn, in hindsite.
Thanks anyway.
Regards, Jon |
Author: Jon
Monday, 23 October 2000 - 07:30 pm | |
Due to the thoughtfullness of Stewart Evans (many thanks) and the kindness of Jon Ogan (also, many thanks) I have a more complete picture of the suspect John William Smith Sanders.
For anyone who's slightly interested, John Sanders was the third of three supposedly insane medical students that were being looked for following the murder of Annie Chapman.
The first two were eliminated but John Sanders initially eluded the investigation. Abberline had reported that in an interview at the home address, Sanders's mother told police her son had gone abroad. This, as it turns out, was not true.
John Sanders died in Exeter Lunatic Asylum, Heavitree on March 31st, 1901. His records tell of a "prolonged attack of 14 yrs duration, being at West Malling (Mailing) for 3 yrs and Virginia Water for 9 yrs."
Records show Sanders was admitted into Virginia Water on June 12th, 1889. Which means he was there until 1898, when he was moved to Heavitree for the remainder years.
Prior to being admitted to Virginia Water he was at West Mailing for those previous 3 yrs (1886-89). His medical condition, dementia, was due to overwork, and he was free from any disease.
A register compiled annually at West Mailing in February 1888, then again in 1889 includes Sanders. So it would appear that this is where Sanders was when his mother refered to him as 'gone abroad'.
Not having any knowledge of the conditions of his confinement we cannot be sure if he was able to be out on day release for any reason.
Both West Mailing and Virginia Water were only known for the 'Genteel Insane', as opposed to the criminally violent or homicidal insane.
Even so, a medical certificate for February 1887 describes him as 'subject to attacks of violence' and another record from Heavitree approx 13 yrs later "capable of displaying violence".
Unfortunately, as always in this case, the results are inconclusive. I had hoped to find something that would eliminate Sanders, but as we are left with incomplete information on the conditions of his confinement at West Mailing, then we cannot remove him with certainty.
Regards, Jon
(JtR, A-Z, 3rd Ed. needs an update) |
Author: The Viper
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 06:38 am | |
| Good work, Jon. Always a bonus to read new facts. Thanks. |
Author: Jim DiPalma
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 11:33 am | |
Hi All,
Nice work, Jon.
How common was it in those days for asylum inmates to be allowed out on day release, especially if the inmate in question had already been described as 'subject to attacks of violence'?? Would this vary from one asylum to another?? (I'm inclined to think so).
I agree that without specific knowledge of Sander's conditions of confinement we can't eliminate him with certainty, but perhaps we can estimate the probability of his having been on day release during 1888 based on general knowledge of the customary practice of West Mailing at that time?
Regards,
Jim |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 12:16 pm | |
Hi All,
Is it West Mailing or Malling? I believe there is a West Malling in Kent, but have never heard of West Mailing. And wouldn't it be 'night release' that we would be looking for, Jim? ;-)
Nice to see you posting again by the way.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Jon
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 12:25 pm | |
Thanks Viper & Jim
But all credit is due to the excellent work of Jon Ogan.
Jim, I wish I knew if there even was such a thing as 'day-release', maybe not.
I have asked Jon Ogan if he knew what may have been meant by the Feb 1887 certificate that described Sanders as "terrorizing his household".
I thought he was confined in West Mailing by that time. So does "houshold" mean the Asylum?, or does it mean that he was out on a day release?, or possibly this was the certificate of admission, where they gave reason for him being admitted to the Asylum, that he was unstable at home.
I hope Jon might have an answer to explain the terminology. |
Author: Paul Begg
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 12:31 pm | |
Hi Caz
West Malling - just up the road. Nice place, good wine bar that does an excellent pizza. Superb fish and chip shop outside. I play against one of their pub teams on a quiz night sometimes.
Paul |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 06:28 pm | |
Hi Paul,
Not pizza with tuna, anchovies and black olives, I hope? Otherwise we'd never get you out of there, would we?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 06:28 pm | |
| Make it two of those pizzas. I just did a double event post! |
Author: Jon
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 07:17 pm | |
Sorry for any confusion, people.
Jon Ogan wrote that West Malling was West Mailing Place, which is now St Leonards Home for the aged.
As to it being 'Malling' or 'Mailing' back in the 1880's, I would have no clue.
Regards, Jon |
Author: Diana
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 09:01 pm | |
| Just a thought. I am (hypothetically) in charge of a mental asylum. I periodically release patients for brief periods of time. I have begun to notice the press brouhaha about the Ripper and the police have been sniffing around to see who has been released lately. It suddenly occurs to me after the double event that maybe I should compare my release records to the murder dates. Oh no! There is one patient who has been out every time a murder happened. Surely a coincidence but it would not do to allow press or police to find out. Of course I do not believe for a moment that he is the Ripper but just to be on the safe side I won't let him out again. Then, weeks later in November either I let my guard down or a subordinate makes a mistake and Kelly is the result. After that he is never let out again. It would explain the long hiatus between the double event and Kelly. It would explain the cessation of the murders. It would tie in with the murders happening on weekends and holidays. Presumably the patient would be released to his family and they would want to have him when someone could be home with him. |
Author: Jon
Tuesday, 24 October 2000 - 09:41 pm | |
A perfectly valid hypothesis providing day release was allowed. An institution might keep quiet about a ward of theirs being a potential murderer,...reputation and all.
The same would happen today.
What might cross my mind is why journey all the way to Whitechapel, why not slice up some woman nearer to home, nearer the institution.
Why Whitechapel?
Regards, Jon |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Wednesday, 25 October 2000 - 03:49 am | |
So what's the full address of West Mailing Place or the St Leonards Home for the aged? There is a town called St Leonards on the coast in Sussex (which may have no connection), and maybe West Mailing Place has no connection at all with West Malling in Kent.
It might be a good idea to establish exactly how far the institution is from Whitechapel before speculating further.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Diana
Wednesday, 25 October 2000 - 06:09 pm | |
| Jack may have headed for Whitechapel because he needed victims who were old, sickly and desperate. The other possibility is that his family, or whomever he was visiting lived there or closeby. |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 25 October 2000 - 09:55 pm | |
Caz
I'm sorry, yes it is West Malling in Kent we are talking about. But I do not know the exact postal address of St Leonard Rest Home.
Regards, Jon |
