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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Cutbush, Thomas
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects:
Contemporary Suspects [ 1888 - 1910 ]:
Cutbush, Thomas
Author: Stephen Tunney
Wednesday, 23 June 1999 - 02:33 pm |        | It was objected earlier in this thread to the notion of Cutbush being the Ripper that Cutbush was arrested for lesser crimes subsequent to the Ripper murders (the idea being that a diminution in awfulness within a series of crimes is not typical of a serial killer's criminal trajectory).
It might be replied that the diminution was due to the effects of syphilis, which Cutbush allegedly contracted in 1888. In other words, a serial killer who contracts syphilis will gradually experience a deterioration in his mental powers, and in such a case graduate "downwards" on a scale of assault. (I stress I know very little about the course of syphilis).
There was some discussion above as to whether JtR's crimes were sexual in nature. My guess would be yes and no, and I don't see the "yes" answer as necessarily being in conflict with the "religious/moral wrath" idea, particularly if the murders were initially motivated by feelings of revenge on the part of JtR for having contracted syphilis.
Here's my thinking. In some sense the crimes were sexual--e.g., Kelly's breasts were removed. But this is compatible with a revenge motive. The victims were common prostitutes, and that immediately suggests sex, as does contracting syphilis from a common prostitute. If Jack suffered from syphilis contracted from a prostitute, he may have been angry at prostitutes for that reason, and angry that his prior pursuit of sex caused him to become ill. And he would then exact revenge in a way which to some extent symbolised this anger. I.e., he would kill only prostitutes, and he would mutilate them in a way which partly suggested their sexual identity and function (as sex providers). But it wasn't just a question of having sex on the brain. He was "rationally" angry because he had contracted a nasty illness. Sex comes into it because the illness was syphilis, and he got it from prostitutes. But maybe he wouldn't have committed murder if he hadn't contracted syphilis. In other words, his psychosexual hang-up, prior to contracting syphilis, wasn't so great or pathological as to commit these murders.
I am just theorising here, not suggesting that Cutbush was indeed JtR. But if my theorising is on the right track, then MacNaghten's inference that Cutbush couldn't be JtR because his crimes were lesser than, and subsequent to, JtR's (if indeed that was his inference) is unsound. Syphilis may explain the lessening of the crimes.
Finally, I don't see why one and the same serial killer can't be psychosexually disturbed in such a way that he requires horrific violence against women to attain sexual gratification AND believe that he's on a mission from God to rid the world of whores. If one believes that something (prostitution) is evil and requires to be eradicated, AND one also finds oneself resorting to prostitutes for sexual gratification, the likely result is guilt, and in a disturbed person guilt can take the form of extreme externally directed anger and rage. Wasn't Sutcliffe (aka the Yorkshire Ripper) an exemplar of this type of pathology? |
Author: Caz
Thursday, 24 June 1999 - 05:05 pm | | Hi All,
Has anyone else had the irreverent thought that the name of this particular suspect is highly unfortunate in the circumstances?
Sorry if my post is off limits, just call it Cutbush City Limits.....
My suspect, Weedon Grossmith, has just mentioned in his autobiography yet another unfortunately-named person, the Marquis of Ripping. Hmmmm.....
Coincidence? I'm sure not :-)
Love,
Caz |
Author: James
Friday, 25 June 1999 - 01:14 am | | Hello All!
I don't think there is much doubt that the Ripper crimes were sexually motivated - the Ripper would have achieved sexual gratification from mutilating his victims in much the same way as, for example, Peter Kurten got his jollies from stabbing victims and "watching the blood flow". In fact didn't Kurten become sexually excited simply by breaking into the empty apartments of prospective victims? I guess the Ripper crimes represent the type of morbid sexuality first described by Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis. The fact that no sperm was found does not mean the killings weren't sexual in nature - for one, he could have ejaculated in his pants, or two, he was impotent, and cutting and stabbing his victims was a substitute for intercourse. (This is all a bit distasteful - I think I'll leave it there!).
Best
James |
Author: Caz
Friday, 25 June 1999 - 05:46 pm | | Hi James,
Yep, I think you have something there.
I think Jack was of the impotent variety throughout his 'series', but when he had satisfied himself that his 'opus' was complete, he found potency at last. I think that is why the murders stopped. He finally found a way of casting off his inner demons. (Viagra is a less drastic option nowadays!)
Have we any other examples of this? The trouble being that if not, people will say such an idea is preposterous. But each serial killer, when caught, displays certain unique traits which would have sounded bizarre and unbelievable beforehand.
Any thoughts?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Ben McCorry
Monday, 16 August 1999 - 01:46 pm | | I'm new to this but after reading A.P.Wolf's section in "The Mammoth Book of Jack the Ripper", edited by Jakubowski and Braund, I see that she makes quite a point about who lived at 29 Aldgate High Street, outside which Eddowes was arrested prior to her murder. A.P.Wolf implies that she knew who JtR was and was making her way back there for Blackmail purposes, or somesuch, when she met her death. The section ends by saying that the resident at that address was JtR but does not give a name. Does anyone out there have any knowledge on this, I am curious but do not know the best way of finding out and therefore figured that this bulletin board would be a shortcut to info.
So any news? |
Author: Wolf
Monday, 16 August 1999 - 10:33 pm | | Welcome to the boards Ben. I've wondered that myself but A.P. Wolf's piece was flawed with some inaccuracies so I really didn't pay it much attention. I will say that Eddows did not know who the Ripper was and wasn't going to meet him at Mitre Square.
Wolf. |
Author: Christopher George
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 05:39 am | | Hi, Ben:
Thank you for your contribution. I would suggest that the Whitechapel murders would not have the same fascination and would seem a lot less mysterious if we knew it was a plain old series of serial killings and we were not aware of the specter of "Jack the Ripper," the hue and cry in the East End, the mystery of the Goulston St. graffito, the probably hoax letters, the Lusk kidney, the many suspects--did a Prince of the realm do it, etc., i.e., the events of the terrible autumn of 1888 embroidered by 111 years of Ripperology. . . .
Chris George |
Author: Bob Hinton
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 07:13 am | | To Caz,
In answer to your June 25th posting. I don't know if this is along the lines you are thinking but Kallinger (The Shoemaker) could only attain an erection and perform sexually whilst holding a knife.
His wife didn't know he used to keep a knife in a bedside cabinet and fondle it while making love to her.
Later on he could only perform if he fantasised about stabbing her at the same time.
He used to spend hours fantasising about stabbing and disembowlling his victims. Apparently they had to be mutilated in a special way, having their breasts hacked off and then stabbed and ripped through their vagina's. Not a very pleasent person at all.
yours aye
Bob Hinton |
Author: adam wood
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 08:08 am | | Hi Ben, Wolf
Kelly's Post Office Directory for 1888 doesn't list 29 Aldgate St, meaning it was a residential address and not a business.
Goad's Insurance Map, however, gives the following information:
27 William Smart, Chemist
28 William C Archer, Restaurant
29/30/31 William Smith & Co., Tailors - with Hotel over
32 Marcus David Loewenstark, Electroplater
So it would seem that Kelly's took the Hotel above 29 Aldgate as the main use for that address.
Unless Catharine Eddowes was returning to 29 Aldgate High St to have her shawl repaired(!), if A P Wolf is to be believed she would have been visiting someone in the the hotel. Who? Your guess is as good as mine.
Adam |
Author: Caz
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 09:54 am | | Hi Bob,
Thanks for the info about Kallinger, the 'orrible cobbler.
Just goes to show some women haven't the foggiest idea who they are really married to :-)
Do we know what happened to the old bastard and his spouse? Did he ever try out his fantasies on anyone, and did his wife carry on canoodling in ignorant wedded bliss?
Presumably there are other similar (nut)cases who DO go on to kill, but leave their nearest and dearest alone. Peter Sutcliffe appeared to dote on his wife and never hurt her as far as I know, but there is some evidence that he was deeply jealous of a previous liaison of hers. Wonder how he got his kicks in bed?
Jack's deeds certainly match Kallinger's preferred methods of knife assault. My own suspect finally married the daughter of an eminent Brook Street physician in 1895 when he was 40. Apparently a friend wondered how his fiancee managed to keep a straight face when he proposed. So did he keep a knife in his drawers for the honeymoon? :-)
And can these kind of people ever find a cure once their fantasies have turned to fact? The ones who confine themselves to their fantasies have exercised sufficient control, but is there any way back for the ones who lose that control?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Bob Hinton
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 10:42 am | | Dear Caz,
I'm afraid he did. Of all the cases I have looked at I must admit to being very disturbed by this one.
He was married divorced then married again. He started involving his children in his fantasies. He believed he had a message from God to save the world, and then woke up one morning to realise that God wanted to him to destroy the world.
His first victim was his own son who he murdered with his other son as an accomplice. He then went out with this other son (aged 14) raiding houses. He told his son that they would break into houses tie up the women and then rape and torture them. His son used to be really put out when this didn't happen.
Finally they broke into a house and ended up with several women and a man tied up. He instructed the woman to castrate the man with her teeth, she refused saying she would rather die. He hacked her to death. The first police officer on the scene recognised her as the daughter of another police officer in the department.
Reading about this creature everything screams Jack the Ripper.
He is now serving thirty to eighty years in State Correctional Institution, Huntingdon Pennsylvania, where amongst other things he writes poetry.
The book is called The Shoemaker by Professor Flora Schreiber, be warned it is a very disturbing read.
all the best
Bob Hinton |
Author: Christopher George
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 11:08 am | | Hi Bob and Caz:
In terms of the example of Kallinger (The Shoemaker), I am not sure I can agree with Bob that "Reading about this creature everything screams Jack the Ripper." Different times, different circumstances. However, I do see a parallel in the fantasies that Kallinger experienced, and I would think that Jack had similar fantasies and that the knife was a substitute for a penis, or as with Kallinger, an aid to him getting an erection.
Chris George |
Author: Wolf
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 12:30 pm | | I have to agree with Chris-George on this one, Bob. Violent sexual fantasies that involve knives and blood are the hall marks of the sub category of murderers known as Rippers. The knife is their substitue for the penis or as Colin Wilson (I think) described it, rape by knife.
Adam, thanks for the info, it was much appreciated. If A.P. Wolf's suspect (although he denies he even has a suspect) lived in the hotel, this refutes his claim that "it is a matter of public record and facts." It may well be but not easily obtainable.
Wolf. |
Author: rich
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 01:13 pm | | Mrs Moppe certainly loved the knife as a weapon.
rich |
Author: Ashling
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 01:40 pm | | Hi y'all.
BOB: I bought The Shoemaker years ago, but never finished reading it ... before doing so, I'd like some clarity on the author. Perhaps you can help - Have you heard anything derogatory about Flora Schreiber's credibility?
The below is a quote from a post by Sarah Jacobs on Thurs. Aug. 5, 1999 on the board Diary of JtR-> General Disc.-> Barrett's Confessions.
"One of these is a novel: Flora Rheta Schreiber, author of the bestseller, _Sybil_, has admitted to fabricating the titular female character, supposedly her patient, in order to earn a degree of professional respect and admiration."
Anyone who has fuller details, including the date of this admittance of fabrication - I'd appreciate learning more.
Thanks, ;-)
Janice |
Author: Christopher George
Tuesday, 17 August 1999 - 06:59 pm | | Hi, Janice:
The following is from the The Skeptics Dictionary website listing for "multiple personality disorder [dissociative identity disorder]" (http://skepdic.com/mpd.html):
'Sybil has been identified as Shirley Ardell Mason, who died of breast cancer last year at the age of 75. Her therapist has been identified as Cornelia Wilbur [i.e., NOT novelist Flora Rheta Schreiber.] [Wilbur] died in 1992, leaving Mason $25,000 and all future royalties from Sybil. Schreiber died in 1988. Three documentaries and several books about the case are now in the works. The bottom line: Mason had no MPD symptoms before therapy with Wilbur, who used hypnosis and other suggestive techniques to tease out the so-called "personalities." Newsweek (January 25, 1999) reports that, according to historian Peter M. Swales (who first identified Mason as Sybil), "there is strong evidence that [the worst abuse in the book] could not have happened."'
If Flora Rheta Schreiber fudged in "Sybil," one wonders if she also fudged in her supposedly "true crime" book on Kallinger (The Shoemaker).
Chris George |
Author: Ashling
Wednesday, 18 August 1999 - 12:35 am | | CHRIS: Thanks much for the Skeptics Dictionary link -- It led me to a 3 page article in the Jan. 25, 1999 issue of Newsweek titled "Unmasking Sybil." Those interested can read it themselves...
http://www.newsweek.com/nw-srv/issue/04_99a/printed/us/st/sc0104_1.htm
Basically, all 3 women died before this article was published - Schreiber in 1988, Wilbur in 1992 & "Sybil" in Feb. 1998. Although some folks have raised serious doubts about Sybil's case, and about all MPDs/DIDs in general -- No one at the above 2 links has mentioned Flora Schreiber as being part of any wrong doing. None of the 3 women admitted to fabricating anything - or at least no such confession had reached Newsweek's ears by Jan. of this year.
In 2005, Dr. Wilbur's archives supposedly can be opened ... As of today, IMHO we don't have enough facts to convict this particular Flo yet.
Take care,
Janice |
Author: A.M.P.
Saturday, 21 August 1999 - 04:52 am | | Adam,
With reference to your post of 17th August, I think that you are confusing Aldgate with Aldgate High Street. They were separate streets. The traders you quote were operating in Aldgate. However, PC Robinson’s arrest of Catherine Eddowes took place outside 29 Aldgate High Street.
Neither Kelly’s Directory nor the City Of London Directory yielded a name for the occupant of 29 Aldgate High Street upon consultation. The nearest numbers I could find to it were as follows:-
28 Henry Phillips, Furniture Warehouseman.
30 William Hattersley, Ironmonger
32 Abraham Lazarus Pozner, Tailor (strangely enough he also shared the premises at 27 Aldgate with Smart the chemist).
Best Wishes |
Author: Ashling
Saturday, 21 August 1999 - 02:02 pm | | Hi y'all.
A.M.P. -- Are the buildings on Aldgate High Street numbered in the style of 1, 2, 3, 4 ... OR 2, 4, 6 on one side and 1, 3, 5 on the other side of the street?
Thanks,
Janice |
Author: A.M.P.
Sunday, 22 August 1999 - 12:01 am | | Hi Ashling,
I believe the numbering of Aldgate High Street was consecutive (1,2,3,4...), just like the adjacent Whitechapel High Street. That form of numbering was common for the older streets. Will double check it this week and post a correction if I'm wrong! Best Wishes. |
Author: Michael Andrew Mould
Monday, 04 June 2001 - 09:32 am | | | Does anybody know of any published photographs of Thomas Cutbush? |
Author: Noel c. Auger
Monday, 09 December 2002 - 06:58 pm | | It is not strictly germane to the thread but according to the `1881 census Thomas Cutbush(age 15) was living at 14 Albert Street,Newington,Surrey.This was the home of John k Hayne,his wife Anne Hayne and two daughters E.Hayne(Unmarried,age 37,income derived from property) and Kate Cutbush,age33,widowed,born New York).There were also two lodgers(John Bodrick and Edger T Clark staying in the premises.
Whilst I appreciate this info contributes little to the proceedings it does once again indicate the inaccuracies perpetrated by Macnaghten in his Memo where he refers to Albert Street,Kennington and states Cutbush lived with his mother and an aunt which was only part of the story.It does add an American association,however tenuous! |
Author: Stuart
Tuesday, 10 December 2002 - 09:35 am | | I read about Cutbush in the "Mammoth Book of JTR" and thought "He sounds a bit dodgy". However, Sugden in his book dismisses the case against him as preposterous. Now I'm no expert (no really I'm not :-) ) bit he sounds like a realistic candidate to me. Wonder why Sugden throws it out so easily.
cheers
Stu |
Author: chris scott
Wednesday, 18 December 2002 - 05:22 pm | | Hi Noel
Coincidence that cos Id just found Cutbush in the 1881 census:-)
Full details for the household are:
Thomas Cutbush
Born 1866 in Newington
14 Albert Street
Newington
Surrey
Household:
Head
John Hayne aged 71 born Witney, Oxford
Wife
Anne Hayne aged 75 born Witney, Oxford
Daughter
E Hayne aged 37 born Witney, Oxford
(Income Derived Property)
Daughter
Kate Cutbush aged 33 born New York
(Assistant)
Son
Thomas Cutbush aged 15
Lodger
John Bodrick aged 26 born Glamorgan, Wales
(Schoolmaster)
Lodger
Edger T Clark aged 22 born Whyddom, Norfolk
(Iron monger)
I also found Superintendent Cutbush who was his uncle and also lived in Newington. Household details are:
SUPT CUTBUSH
36 St Paul's Road
Newington
Surrey
Household
Head
Charles Cutbush aged 36 born Ashford, Kent
(Chief Inspector of Police)
Wife
Ann Cutbush aged 36 born New Romney, Kent
Children
Amelia aged 13
Ellen aged 10
Winifred aged 5
Caroline aged 3
Charles S aged 7 months
Mother
Amelia Cutbush aged 66 born Hythe, Kent
(Annuitant)
Other
Winifred Warrell aged 36 born Chelsea
(Lady help)
I did a head count to see how common the name was in the 1881 census and the result was that there were 69 of that surname in the whole of London at the time. One of them had a very familiar address!!!
There was an Albert Cutbush who was a lodger at No 7 Buck's Row. His details are:
Albert Cutbush
Aged 18 (i.e. born 1863)
Born in Lambeth
Occupation: Blind maker
I thought this might be of interest
Regards
Chris Scott |
Author: Dan Norder
Wednesday, 18 December 2002 - 11:58 pm | | Stuart,
I think Cutbush is thrown out simply because he was just too looney and out of it to have successfully pulled off any of the Jack the Ripper killings. Someone who pokes someone in the behind with a knife in front of a crowd isn't the same kind of person to go off to a secluded place, quick strangle kill, mutilate and flee.
That's my opinion, and I think people who dismiss him do so for similar reasons.
Dan
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Author: Stuart
Thursday, 19 December 2002 - 04:15 am | | Hi Dan. True that Cutbush is perhaps a bit of a "looney" and I'm not a believer that Jack was such (although I reserve the right to change my mind). But I feel that Cutbush is not to be wholly dismissed. He's more of a realistic suspect than - say - Dr Cream or Lewis Carroll, both of whom appear on the suspects page.
cheers
Stu |
Author: Dan Norder
Thursday, 19 December 2002 - 04:40 am | | Well, if not being Cream or Carroll is the litmus test, sure, you have a point.
And at least we know he was in the area at the time, and was known to be violent, which is more than we have on most suspects.
Otherwise, no, just can't see it.
Dan
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