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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Lovers of Victims
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: General Discussion :
Lovers of Victims
Author: Calogridis
Saturday, 20 March 1999 - 03:33 pm |        | | Michael Kidney was a curious character in the drama. As Stride's lover, he seemed to have a dark side. The postal kidney sent to Lusk could have been a clue. It may also be possible that apart from being disturbed in the act of killing Stride, the Ripper may have had other reasons for sparing her the mutilations and thus went looking for another victim. Still, I admit it's a stretch. But what is really known of the man? Did he have any experience as a butcher or slaughterer? I guess a medical background would be unlikely. With all the attention on another victim's lover, Joseph Barnett, in recent years,it seems Michael is generally not seriously considered. |
Author: Ashling
Saturday, 20 March 1999 - 05:09 pm | | Hi again to Calogridis & anyone else who wanders by!
I believe Michael Kidney is worthy of serious consideration as Stride's murderer. IF and when I prove that - to my satisfaction at least ... then I'll consider him as as the Ripper - but right now, he doesn't fit "comfortably" into that role IMHO. No matter what, we need more info on him.
In Prisoner 1167: The Madman Who Was Jack the Ripper, Tully mentions that during the year following Stride's murder - Kidney "... was treated in Whitechapel Workhouse infirmary for syphilis, lumbago and dyspepsia." Does anyone on the Caseboard have those medical records?
I'm interested in knowing from the above records and/or elsewhere: Michael Kidney's height, weight, build, hair color, complexion - any & all physical descriptions. Also, does Kidney show up on the Census for later years? Does anyone know when he died? Thanks.
Take care,
Ashling |
Author: Calogridis
Saturday, 20 March 1999 - 06:30 pm | | Howdy, Ashling!
Thanks for the input- and good questions. Sugden says Kidney was a waterside labourer, but I still wonder about his antecedent employment history. Michael was drunk and belligerent with the police after Stride's murder- perhaps not too significant. An inquest artist's sketch of him shows a receding hairline and a big mustache, the latter of course was standard issue to the Victorians. No idea however as to his height and weight. Best of luck in getting answers ....Calogridis |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Tuesday, 21 March 2000 - 10:15 am | | | With Annie Chapman having lived in a doss house at 30 and/or 35 Dorset Street, and Michael Kidney having lived at 33 (?) Dorset Street, can we assume they knew each other? Or has this been proven? |
Author: The Viper
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 06:29 pm | | No R.J.P. In this instance you can be pretty safe in assuming that Michael Kidney didn't know Annie Chapman. The most reliable address we have for Kidney when he lived with Liz Stride is 36 Devonshire Street. That is a good twenty-minute walk from Dorset Street. Liz left him on 25th September. Annie Chapman died on 8th.
Even had their time overlapped, the chances that two Dorset Street residents knew one another just by sight were quite slim, (though it depends very much on the type of resident). The chance cannot really be compared to the way that you or I might know our neighbours or recognise other people from the same street.
Though the properties in Dorset St. were only numbered up to 39 by 1881, exactly 900 people spent Census night there. In 1891 the figure was 632. That's quite a difference, but numbers varied widely according to the weather. Whilst the odd house was occupied by a single family, others were rented out by rooms and the street contained several common lodging houses. These would be populated by a mixture of regulars and casuals. The latter gave streets like this a transient character - people came, stayed a short while (sometimes just one night) and then disappeared completely. Even regulars at one lodging house might disappear for a while, perhaps to go hopping or fruit picking at appropriate times of year. There were even people so hard-up that they opted to take their chance sleeping outdoors in fine summer weather.
Incidentally, the address you mention for Kidney at 33 Dorset Street doesn't look right. It wasn't a lodging house in either 1881 or 1891, so that address is probably a misprint in one of the newspapers. As we discussed yesterday, alternatives have been suggested. Numbers 38, 35 and 30 would all be more feasible.
ADDENDUM: Now that Alex has confirmed that both The Times and the Telegraph give number 38, perhaps we should consider it the most likely.
Regards, V. |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Thursday, 23 March 2000 - 03:42 am | | Viper--another excellent post. Many thanks.
RJP |
Author: The Viper
Sunday, 17 December 2000 - 08:11 am | | Having more than once discussed – and in one case instigated a debate – on Liz Stride and Michael Kidney's address at the time of their break up, I'd like to re-open the subject one more time in the expectation of reaching a conclusion.
Readers may recall that past commentators have plumped either for 36 Devonshire Street, as recorded two years earlier by Sven Ollsen of the Swedish Church and reported in a Central News Agency interview with Kidney, or for 38 Dorset Street, where Kidney was living at the time of the inquest, and which was given by Coroner Baxter in his summing up. (X-Ref "General Discussion/Is the Goulston St. Graffito All it Seems?" board for March 2000).
However, consider the following inquest exchanges of 3rd October 1888 which were reported on 4th October in The Times. First, between Baxter and Elizabeth Tanner, the deputy at 32 Flower & Dean Street:-
The CORONER. - Do you know any other place she has lived? - Witness. - Only Fashion-street.
From the testimony of Stride's confidant and fellow lodger, Catherine Lane:-
During the time she was away she called at the lodginghouse, and I used frequently to see her in Fashion-street where she was living. [My emphasis]
Here are the equivalent exchanges as reported in the Daily Telegraph:-
[Mrs. Tanner] …I am aware that she lived in Fashion-street, but not that she has ever resided at Poplar.
...and...
[Coroner to Lane] Had you ever seen her before? - I have known her for six or seven months. I used to see her frequently in Fashion-street, where she lived, and I have seen her at our lodging-house.
An address in Fashion Street would tally with Kidney's statement that he last saw Liz in Commercial Street. Some of those who have taken the couple's Devonshire St. address to be correct have raised eyebrows at his statement in the past, (Commercial Street being well to the north west of both Devonshire Street and Kidney’s work in the docks).
Unlike some of the other witnesses we meet in this case, Catherine Lane's remarks do read as being those of an honest and reliable witness. She also seems to have been on genuinely friendly terms with Stride, rather than just a fellow lodger.
It must be noted that the odd error has crept into the reporting of these inquests. For instance, immediately before this exchange The Times reported that Lane had known Stride for 6 or 7 years, whilst the Telegraph stated a more likely sounding 6 or 7 months. Even so, concerning the address, Lane’s wording is sufficiently clear and consistently reported to allow us to put this little mystery to bed. The couple were living in Fashion Street. Anybody care to disagree?
Regards, V. |
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