Archive through July 4, 1999

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Archive through July 4, 1999

Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects: Contemporary Suspects [ 1888 - 1910 ]: Tumblety, Francis: Archive through July 4, 1999

Author: Caz Friday, 16 April 1999 - 09:43 am
Hey Jim! Old Fitz can have a go at me then (assuming he hasn't already, who knows in this place?) My great-grandmother was French! Mr Fitzgerald, Are you fair dinkum Australian, because your accent is very well disguised if you don't mind my saying so? I can tell a lot by the way people write, usually at least their identity after a couple of posts (with or without the benefit of a consistent user-name) but, as the first paragraph of Jim's post says, some things are virtually impossible to detect. I find irony or sarcasm the hardest to pin-point, unless I know exactly where the poster is coming from. I try to read each post in both ways and make a judgement from that (not always correctly). I find it a very subjective process, but great fun all the same. Love, Caz
Author: D. Radka Friday, 16 April 1999 - 01:14 pm
Caz, Ooh de-wah, de lah dee-dah, Dee wah dee-DAH. Boo-dee waddah WOOH. Now, please tell me a lot about myself, based on the way I wrote that. Thank you. Have Fun, David
Author: D. Radka Friday, 16 April 1999 - 08:36 pm
I'd like to second Jim's take on Mr. FitzGerald's posts concerning prejudice. While I've got no beef with Mr. F's position as he expanded it, something doesn't seem quite right about admitting to the likes of jingoism, accepting the name to be worn, but not apologizing for it. It sounds a bit arrogant. I'm not in charge of what goes and doesn't go here, but perhaps other readers may wish to consider on their own if this will do. David
Author: Calogridis Friday, 16 April 1999 - 10:52 pm
Howdy All! Let's see- you have Dr. David Canter (as Jim pointed out), John Douglas, Bob Ressler, to name just a few of the very successful profilers. The latter two teamed up and spent years interviewing mass murderers, so as to be able to "walk in the shoes". Even if some detectives bungled a case in Australia, that doesn't invalidate the science, just the application. Bottom line- it works time and time again. Proof is in the pudding! Cheers......Mike
Author: Joseph Saturday, 17 April 1999 - 12:12 am
Mr. Radka, Relax, don't get so excited,you might hurt yourself. :-0 Best Regards Joseph
Author: VT newbie Saturday, 17 April 1999 - 01:48 am
Hi, all. I must confess that I wouldn't recognize irony on this written board if I fell over it, so I suppose I could be way off base. But this American, at least, is willing to accept Michael Fitzgerald's apology for any "jingoistic rant" at face value (and I trust the French can forgive him as well.) It seems to me that his postings have been thoughful (if not exactly tactful), lucid and of value for consideration, and I for one would hate to see him driven from the boards because of a few ill-chosen words. Please, let's get back to the subject of the discussion and not dissect every statement made under a standard I doubt I am capable of meeting. Thanks. Carole
Author: Michael FitzGerald Monday, 19 April 1999 - 12:38 am
It seems my tactlessness has helped to make a bit of a mess on this board, which has steered it well away from its original purpose. Yes Caz, I am a dinky-di Aussie, but I wasn't tyring to be ironic in my posts. To Mr. Radka, I in fact did apologise after reconsidering the vehemence of my original rhetoric, and am certainly not too arrogant to reject the very weighty corrections made by Mr. DiPalma. I made my observations on profiling as a cultural phenomenon, not as a proto-science, so my perception of it as an American concern could, in theory, remain whether or no profiling is practised by Britons. As for the invitation from Joseph to offer my preferred suspect for JtR, I have only taken up the topic in the last fortnight, so I can only comment on the book "Jack the Ripper: First American Serial Killer" by Stewart Evans and Paul Gainey, which, if nothing else, was a terrific read and offered some tantalising questions. Its central conundrum was this: why would Scotland Yard invest so much manpower and effort in tracing an American suspect if not nearly convinced he was the Ripper - and then ignore him completely in all official documents until a private letter is written to a pressman? Officer Littlechild was not directly involved in the Ripper investigation, but would have been acquainted with Tumblety as a Fenian sympathiser; he connects the Ripper crimes with contemporary Irish political crimes. But the deployment of Scotland Yard men in America to trace Tumblety indicates that more involved officers shared Littlechild's suspicion. The revelation of the English dossier on Tumblety would be a substantial find; in fact, American police records might cast some light on the gravity of Scotland Yard interest in this suspect. I still believe the serial killer myth is more likely to feature a psychologist, rather than a detective, as its hero in America than in Britain. From this humble Aussie's cloud, we still import the notion of the British stiff-upper-lip and starched collar, packaged neatly as re-runs of "The Bill" and "Taggart QC." So the image of the wizened old British inspector is still current, regardless of the real state of British policing. In contrast, my American Van Helsings are the product of Hollywood fascination with the psychology that produces the crime. The filmgoing public wants to see monsters, it would seem... I can only ask for patience with my newness to this subject, and an understanding that my comments should be limited to patterns of culture on either side of the Atlantic. And then only to what that fraction of the those media cultures I am exposed to. I have never intended that my conjecture in this field should be treated as the gospel according to... Indeed, it would be hard to be so arrogant when I can only suggest so little amongst such company. But I certainly contest the validity of profiling as a "science;" to me, that is a very hallowed term. Apologies, as always, for any ill-chosen words. I sometimes get carried away... and certainly have no scorn for my beloved French! To return this board to its intended purpose, I should query what research is currently being undertaken to flesh out our knowledge of Tumblety. What are the odds of finding the enigmatic dossier?
Author: Chris George Monday, 19 April 1999 - 05:51 am
Greetings, Mr. FitzGerald: Thank you for your most humble post. I really think you have apologized enough. We hereby resolve you of the need to apologize further, unless that is you feel a personal need to wear sackcloth and ashes. :-) As for what research is being done on Tumblety, as Stewart Evans remarked in a recent post, the crucial evidence might be found in the United States, where Tumblety resided for most of his life. In a minor way, I have so far done some research on Tumblety's wills, published in a recent article in "Ripperologist" February 1999 ("The Cardinal and the Ripper Suspect"). Under a will signed in St. Louis on May 16, 1903, twelve days before he died on May 28, Tumblety left $10,000 to Cardinal James Gibbons of Baltimore and a further $10,000 to Cardinal John Ireland of St. Paul, Minnesota. A prior will of October 1901, signed in Baltimore, Maryland, had left $1,000 to Cardinal Gibbons and $1,000 "to the Home for Fallen Women of Baltimore City, on North Exeter Street." Authors Evans and Gainey find the latter stipulation highly significant given that they and the police of the day suspect that Tumblety may have slaughtered prostitutes in the East End of London in 1888. Major Joseph R. Kemp of Baltimore, named as joint executor under the Baltimore will, attempted unsuccessfully to have the Probate Court of St. Louis uphold the terms of ths Baltiimore will. Interestingly, in the 1901 will, Tumblety is named as a resident of Baltimore, and since he wrote to the New York Herald from Baltimore on January 14, 1892, it may be assumed that he lived for a large part of the 1890's in Baltimore. Though I have not so far found a residence for him in the city, and he may have lived in lodgings as he did in New York City, research is continuing. A question is how much the police suspected him because of his Fenian connections and how much as the Ripper, but the American papers of the day did openly say that Scotland Yard suspected Dr. Tumblety of being Jack the Ripper. Chris George
Author: Joseph Monday, 19 April 1999 - 06:58 am
Hello Mr. FitzGerald, I didn't think your original post was vehement, or ill concevied, as a matter of fact, I thought it very well put. I can see your point regarding profiling as being something of an American obsession,it gets a lot of air time on U.S. television. We even have a show so named,(The Profiler)which airs on Saturday night. My police friends tell me profiling is very helpful in determining motive,"You find the motive, you find the killer" to quote Fox Mulder. Getting back to Dr.Tumbelty, I am doing a little research of my own here in the states. I'm trying to shed a little light on his Fenian connections in both Canada, and the U.S.. I have a good friend who is well connected to the Irish community in the New York city area, and together we're looking into old correspondence between members of the Canadian Fenians, and their American counterparts,for any reference to Dr. Tumblety. So far, Nada, but there's a lot of stuff to sift through, and I belive I've just scratched the surface. It's been a pleasure reading your intelligent, and well put together comments, so don't hesatate to speak your mind. Best Regards Joseph
Author: Joseph Monday, 19 April 1999 - 07:07 am
Hello Mr. FitzGerald, I didn't think your original post was vehement, or ill concevied, as a matter of fact, I thought it very well put. I can see your point regarding profiling as being something of an American obsession,it gets a lot of air time on U.S. television. We even have a show so named,(The Profiler)which airs on Saturday night. My police friends tell me profiling is very helpful in determining motive,"You find the motive, you find the killer" to quote Fox Mulder. Getting back to Dr.Tumbelty, I am doing a little research of my own here in the states. I'm trying to shed a little light on his Fenian connections in both Canada, and the U.S.. I have a good friend who is well connected to the Irish community in the New York city area, and together we're looking into old correspondence between members of the Canadian Fenians, and their American counterparts,for any reference to Dr. Tumblety. So far, Nada, but there's a lot of stuff to sift through, and I belive I've just scratched the surface. It's been a pleasure reading your intelligent, and well put together comments, so don't hesatate to speak your mind. Best Regards Joseph
Author: D. Radka Monday, 19 April 1999 - 10:05 pm
In today's morally bankrupt world, anyone who stands up for honor and decency, or who takes a position beside the violated and defenseless, gets their butt gratuitously kicked. Weighty enough for me. David
Author: Caz Tuesday, 20 April 1999 - 08:04 am
Hi David! I, for one, would never dream of kicking your butt, mate, hope you feel the same towards mine (double grin). Love, Caz PS Sorry, I should have said "Anyone can kick my butt, so long as it isn't gratuitously". (I have a scorpion tucked up there, just out of sight, for those gratuitous butt-kickers, wide smile.)
Author: roger leeming Monday, 26 April 1999 - 12:13 pm
I am currently working on a book entitled "The Dracula Connexions". During my recent research I stumbled on the fact that Bram Stoker's "Dracula" was dedicated to a certain 'Hommy-Beg' - the nickname of Thomas Hall Caine, the reputed boyfriend of Tumblety. Given the subject matter of "Dracula" and the quasi-homosexual relationship which Stoker had with the famous actor Henry Irving, I would postualte that there may have been a secret gay coterie of powerful Victorian Londoners (possibly linked to the Beefeater Club to which Stoker and Irving both belonged). It is possible that Hall Caine was also associated with this club and it may also be the case that Tumblety had powerful friends through this association. The Beefeater Club was well-known for its fascination with the violent and the occult. Was Tumblety doing a little action research for them??I have not yet found out how Stoker met Caine. Any help with this or comments on my submission would be gratefully received (Any help will receive credits in my book!!)
Author: Edana Tuesday, 27 April 1999 - 07:53 am
Oh be still my heart! Roger, I can't wait to read your book. I am very interested in the 'homosexual underground' of the Victorian era, the Aesthetes and Decadents, Oscar Wilde's green carnation boys, the College St. Scandal, the Apostles....etc. (by the way, did you know that Stoker stole away Oscar's first sweetheart Florence Balcomb?) I have this sneaking suspicion, sort of a niggling worm in my brain, that if there were two JTRs, then they were probably homosexual (or inverted.....Uranian?)I have yet to read Stewart's Tumbelty book although I have visited his gravesite (Tumbelty's that is). If you have any suggestions for reading matter on this subject, please suggest some books I can read about it. I also believe there was a strong underground homosexual brotherhood, but if it had anything to do with the Whitechapel murders, I don't know. Edana
Author: Caz Tuesday, 27 April 1999 - 04:17 pm
Well Edana, in Weedon Grossmith's autobiography, he mentions meeting Bram Stoker, and he was well in with Henry Irving.... Love, Caz
Author: Magpie Tuesday, 27 April 1999 - 10:45 pm
What I'd like to know is where 1)Where the other Littlechild letters are. 2)Why did Tumblety only show in this one? 3)What did the other letters contain? Were there other theories expounded? It seems to me that the main weakness of the entire Tumblety theory is that he was Littlechild's only suspect when the letter makes quite clear that he wasn't Magpie
Author: Stephen P. Ryder Thursday, 06 May 1999 - 03:08 pm
[Just came across this today...] San Francisco Chronicle 20 November, 1888 pg. 6 DR. TUMBLETY. _____ MORE ABOUT THE SUSPECTED WHITECHAPEL FIEND. _____ Posing in New York as the Friend of English Aristocrats--His Financial Collapse. Clement R. Bennett, the well-known stenographer of the Circuit Court, knew Dr. Tumblety of New York, who has been arrested in London on suspicion of being the Whitechapel murderer. In conversation yesterday in regard to the case he said: "The first time I ever saw Tumblety was at the Jerome Park fall races in 1870. I was then living in that fashionable suburb, Fordham. Tumblety, in company with a flashily dressed man, passed by our house, which was the short cut from the park to the Fordham depot, on the New York and Harlem Railroad. The men stopped, and Tumblety, who acted as spokesman, asked me a great many questions about the resident--'Who lived here?' and 'who lived there?'--pointing to the magnificent summer houses of the metropolitan capitalists, with a jockey riding whip, the head of which appeared resplendent with jewels. The dash and hauteur of the man made such an impression upon me that afternoon, with subsequent acts and incidents in that city, that I have never forgotten him. "About 1871 he roomed at the Northern Hotel, on Cortlandt street. Here he had a magnificent suit (sic)of rooms, the floors of which were covered with well-worn leather trunks, valises and bags. He cordially invited any young men whom he fancied, wherever he met them, in the parks, squares or stores, to call upon him at this hotel, where he was wont to say he would show them 'an easy road to fortune.' By his suavity he was successful beyond comprehension in enlisting and securing the attendance, at certain hours of the day and evening, of good-looking young men adn boys, greenhorns, to 'walk into my parlor.' He pretended to be a 'specialist' and to have a cure for some of the ills which flesh is heir to. "On one occasion I remember him showing me several valuable medals given him by British and colonial societies, with a collection of complimentary letters and testimonial from English noblemen, and, if I remember correctly, some of them were signed Granville, Mouck, Dufferin, etc. The papers were apparently official and genuine, as they bore the coats of arms, the crown, etc., of the donors, the peculiar aristocratic chirography in signature, etc. Up to the centennial year F. T. Tumblety, M.D., the name he was known by in New York, appeared to be in easy circumstances. He was a noted horseback rider and was a familiar figure in the saddle on Broadway. In stature he was about six feet one or two inches, weighed about 180 pounds, and he is now about 50 years of age. He wore a thick, curly, black moustache, clean-shaven red cheeks, and there is a journalist in this city who bears a striking resemblance to Dr. Tumblety. He invariably wore a double-breasted, bottoned-up pea-jacket, light pantaloons, a flashy necktie, cloth gaiters on his English box-toe shoes, a military or university cap, with a gold cord lying upon the straight peak, and some loud jewelry. "The last time I saw him was about 1879. He was then looking shabby, careworn, lame, appeared to be living a dissolute and dissipated life, and was begging for a night's lodging." [END]
Author: Don E. Thursday, 27 May 1999 - 09:18 pm
A COMMENT AND A QUESTION: COMMENT: Regarding the profiling melee of a month or so ago...it should be recalled that "profiling" is both retrospective and descriptive. Within this context, it provides valuable hunches. But being retrospective it is always open to amendment and being descriptive it can provide only a proximate, not a ultimate explanation. Profiling is fine within these bounds. QUESTION: If Tumblety had a wardrobe full of pickeled wombs in D.C. circa 1860 - where did he otain them? Cemetaries? Mortuaries? Unfortuante murddered ones? Do records in D.C., NYC or St. Louis indicate a spree of this sort occuring during Tumblety's tenure in those cities?
Author: Sir William Saturday, 03 July 1999 - 07:06 pm
after reading all the suspects,I feel Francis Tumbelty is the most likely suspect.What do you think...William
Author: Wolf Sunday, 04 July 1999 - 03:50 am
Hey William, the short answer is, no, I don't think Tumblety was the Ripper. He was too old, too tall to fit the best witnesses description (that would be Lawende and not Mrs. Long who only saw the man from the back and at 5:30 when Chapman was probably dead by 4:30.) he didn't know the area well enough and was probably gay. Homosexual serial killers don't tend to kill outside of their group, and lastly, Tumblety was under arrest at the time of the Kelly murder. Some believe that he had made bail or had been released but that would mean that a Ripper suspect had been allowed to walk away from custody without any sort of police survailence kept on him and this is highly unlikely. Wolf.