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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Druitt, Lionel
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects:
Later Suspects [ 1910 - Present ]:
Druitt, Lionel
Author: Scott Nelson
Saturday, 14 November 1998 - 02:06 pm |        | | COULD THE RIPPER HAVE BEEN DR. LIONEL DRUITT, MJD'S COUSIN, WHO PRACTICED AT 140 MINORIES WITH DR. THYNE? HIS WHEREABOUTS AFTER 1880 ARE UNKNOWN, ALTHOUGH HE IS STATED AS HAVING EMIGRATED TO AUSTRALIA IN 1886. COULD HE HAVE RETURNED TO LONDON IN THE FALL OF 1888? COULD HE HAVE BEEN AFFLICTED WITH THE SAME MENTAL ILLNESS AFFECTING SEVERAL OF MONTAGUE'S FAMILY MEMBERS? COULD FAMILY MEMBERS HAVE BEEN DISTRAUGHT OVER MONTAGUE'S DISMISSAL FROM HIS TEACHING POST AT BLACKHEATH BECAUSE OF POSSIBLE SEXUAL IMPROPRIETIES. THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY EMBARRASSING TO FAMILY MEMBERS IN VICTORIAN SOCIETY. DID THEY TRY TO SHIELD LIONEL BY INFORMING POLICE THAT MONTAGUE HAD COMMITTED THE MURDERS AFTER HIS SUICIDE (OR WAS IT MURDER)? LIONEL WOULD HAVE BEEN 35 AT THE TIME OF THE MURDERS AND MAY HAVE FLED BACK TO AUSTRALIA. HOW ELSE CAN WE EXPLAIN MACNAUGHTON AND OTHER'S ASSERTIONS THAT MONTAGUE WAS A DOCTOR, AGED ABOUT 41 AT THE TIME OF HIS DEATH (HE WAS, IN FACT, 31). THE FAMILY COULD HAVE COVERED UP FOR LIONEL BY SUBSTITUTING MONTAGUE AS THE MURDERER AFTER THE FACT. AS AN ADDED INSURANCE, THEY MAY HAVE CLAIMED THAT LIONEL KNEW MONTAGUE WAS THE KILLER AND WROTE THE LONG LOST PAMPHLET "THE EAST END MURDERER- I KNEW HIM". SECOND- OR THIRD-HAND INFORMATION PASSED ON TO MACNAUGHTON SEVERAL YEARS AFTER THE CRIMES BY POLICE WHO HAD INTERVIEWED FAMILY AND FRIENDS MAY HAVE CONVINCED HIM THAT MONTAGUE WAS PROBABLY THE RIPPER. COULD THERE BE ANY VALIDITY IN RESEARCHING LIONEL'S ACTIVITIES IN AUSTRALIA, IF POSSIBLE? THE PRECEEDING IS, OF COURSE, SPECULATIVE, WITH NO SHRED OF EVIDENCE ADDUCED TO IMPLICATE LIONEL DRUITT. |
Author: Calogridis
Friday, 26 March 1999 - 10:52 pm | | Howdy Scott,
Good thought on Lionel, governor! Monty thinks its bloody good. Actually, I would now be interested in what became of Lionel, as your memo has whetted my appetite. That would also give some weight to one of the supposed Ripper letters, posted from Liverpool:
Beware, I shall be at work on the 1st and 2nd inst. in Minories at twelve midnight, and I give the authorities a good chance, but there is never a policeman near when I am at work.
Yours,
Jack the Ripper
If Lionel sent this, it would have double meaning, as he actually worked as a surgeon in the Minories! Does anyone have any post-1888 data on Dr. Lionel Druitt? Cheers....Mike |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Saturday, 27 March 1999 - 01:11 pm | | Mike:
Lionel Druitt was a locum in Dr. Thyne's Minories practice for a few months in 1879. In 1886 he emigrated to Australia. He married 2/4/1888 and his daughter was born 20/10/1888. He died there in 1908 and there's no indication that he left the country at any point. I'd say he had a pretty good alibi.
Peter |
Author: Calogridis
Saturday, 27 March 1999 - 02:45 pm | | Howdy Peter!
Thanks for the bio on Lionel! I'll probably go back to Monty as the most likely Druitt. Best wishes.......Mike |
Author: Magpie
Tuesday, 27 April 1999 - 10:21 pm | | Seeing as how, as far as I remember, the "Minories" letter has never been proven to exit, so using it to support any theory is iffy at best. Just a thought
Magpie |
Author: Neal Glass
Wednesday, 29 March 2000 - 12:42 am | | PETER, Neal here. We met at the more established Druitt board. I see you get around. Lionel's daughter was born in Feb. 10, 1888? You say "20/10/1888", so I assume you mean Feb.? He died in 1908? And your source is? I'm sure you're reliable, I'm just trying to get specific here. Your reputation remains untarnished so far in our brief association, assuredly. And please get back to me about this business of 1886. I have an 1887 from Viper that seems sound enough, but I'm still a little questioning of 1886. What is the primary source? I would also appreciate a birthday for Lionel.
And to be completely fair to Scott here let's at least admit that so far as I understand it there is nothing that actually DEFINITELY & ABSOLUTELY places Lionel ANYWHERE in 1888. Is there a single shred of documentation that really places Lionel Druitt anywhere during that fateful year? I'm only asking. I'm resolved to shut the door on Lionel, but I have my reasons for wanting to definitely place the good doctor SOMEWHERE in 1888. So far as I see it, we are simply assuming that he must have been in Australia because he left for there, lived with his uncle for awhile in 1887 and so he was there. But in reality the paper trail, so to speak, puts him in Australia in 1887, then it does not pick up again until 1889--and here only on the hearsay of people who were asked about him for those years. So by all means enlighten anyone interested in the question. Show me a census. Show me something. Anything. This is your specialty. Don't let me down. Let's rule this guy out and get on with the rest of the line-up. But first let's just definitely put Lionel where he was supposed to be when he was supposed to be there, shall we? And post it here on this new board for the folks who have thoughts and curiosities about it.
Always good talking to you. You have your own file in my computer at this point. The Peter file is something any writer interested in the Ripper should have. I'm creating one for my sister one next Xmass . . .
Later, Neal |
Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 29 March 2000 - 08:00 am | | Information on Lionel Druitt from Howells and Skinner's book Lionel Druitt was the cousin of Montague John Druitt. He was born and grew up at No.39a Curzon Street , Mayfair , London. In 1878 he was assistant house surgeon in an Edinburgh workhouse. In the Medical Register for 1879 it is shown Lionel was working in a surgery at No.140 the Minories on the Whitechapel/City border as an assistant to a Dr Thomas Thyne , general practitioner. He had replaced Thyne's ailing colleague Dr Joseph Taylor in 1879 ; Taylor OD'd on morphine soon after. In 1880 , Lionel moved to Strathmore Gardens , Kensington. In 1886 , Lionel departed for Australia. He arrived at Cooma , New South Wales in August 1886 and stayed with his uncle Archdeacon Thomas Druitt. He practised in various places in the county , he then moved to Wagga Wagga. He married on 2nd April 1888. His first daughter Susan Catherine was born on 20th October 1889. On 1st August 1890 he registered with the Victoria Medical Board and began practicing in a town called St Arnaud. He had rooms in the Bilton Hotel until 8th August 1890 when he moved to his own residence in McMahon Street and remained there until 24th March 1891. In May 1891 he registered as a doctor in Tasmania and his second daughter Isabella was born in the same month at Swansea , Tasmania. Druitt practiced in Tasmania until 1896. From 1897-1898 Druitt practiced as a doctor in Melbourne. He lived in Dandedong Road in Oakleigh a thriving industrial suburb of the town. By 1899 he had moved to Koroit where his third daughter Dorothy Edith was born in February 1899. In 1903 Lionel Druitt moved to the small town of Drouin-Farson , Victoria , 60 miles south east of the Dandenong Ranges , and practiced as a doctor here until 1907. In 1907 he moved to a town called Mentone where he died on 7th January 1908. |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Wednesday, 29 March 2000 - 11:51 am | | Neal:
I had forgotten those few lines from almost exactly a year ago but thanks to Simon, I can save having to look up Howell's book which I would advise getting for info. on the Druitts.
Of course unless Lionel was the person registering his daughter's birth, he still doesn't have an alibi for the right time. Still I'd say it's likely that he would be safetly in Australia for all of 1888. I presume the Druitt daughters married and may have descendents still over there. Maybe you could trace them, although Australian civil records can be difficult to work in.
Peter |
Author: Neal Glass
Wednesday, 29 March 2000 - 10:00 pm | | Yes, Peter & Simon, I think the issue of Lionel has been settled. Strange, I thought I posted a message yesterday acknowleging that, but I see it's disappeared! Weird! Where's my last post? I definitely have to get Howells and Skinner. But you would not believe some of the trouble I go through getting books on the Ripper. California seems to have never heard of Sugden, much less anybody else. I got Sugden at a library . . .
See ya, Neal |
Author: Ashling
Thursday, 30 March 2000 - 04:55 am | | NEAL: Try abebooks.com
Used books at cheap prices. Just type JTR in their search engine & you'll get literally hundreds of Ripper books to pick from.
Ashling |
Author: Neal Glass
Thursday, 30 March 2000 - 01:24 pm | | Wow, thanks, Ash. That's the hot tip of the day. You'll notice I'm becoming more conventional about the double event, so if you like, post your own views on it so I can chew it over. As I say on the Chapman board, the more I think about Lawende agreeing to the description of the Berner Street witnesses, the more it seems it was one and the same man who did both murders that night. Because I have entertained notions to the contrary I am happy to hear a dissenting perspective on that. I am still up in the air about it.
Thanks again, Neal |
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