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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Druitt, Montague John
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects:
Contemporary Suspects [ 1888 - 1910 ]:
Druitt, Montague John
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Tuesday, 04 February 2003 - 06:05 am |        | O.K., now we've thrown E.H.Bedford to the Cleveland Street conspiracy mob, will anyone
demonstrate superhuman research abilities
and seek answers to my OTHER questions above?
Do people about to suicide prepare logically for
their demise?I read the press reports as saying MJD wrote a letter to Valentine "alluding to suicide", and a "note" to his brother.."since Friday I felt like I was going to become like Mother", "So the best thing for all concerned is if I"....Goodbye.
Rosey's observations about him in the river are
basically true.
If The Thames is tidal at Chiswick, and he filled his topcoat with big stones.He was more concerned to do it properly.(Drowning).The cheques in his pocket were to tell his finders who he was. |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 04 February 2003 - 10:26 am | | Hi, John, Jeff, Simon, et al.
The question was asked whether the River Thames at Chiswick is tidal. It certainly is and a table of tides at Chiswick is available on the net. In 2001, I wrote an article for Ripperologist on Thornycroft's Torpedo Factory, off which Druitt's body was found. Despite its name, the factory made torpedo boat destroyers, the forerunner of today's naval destroyers. In order to launch such vessels fairly deep and tidal water would have been needed. Thornycroft's operated at Chiswick until the opening years of the twentieth century when the vessels they were building outgrew the available depth on that stretch of the Thames. At that time they moved to the Solent at Southampton where they are still in operation as the firm of Vosper Thornycroft.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Tuesday, 04 February 2003 - 07:16 pm | | Dear Robert Maloney,
Thanks for email. Interesting footnote below. Most extraordinary coincidence! As the Count said,
now you are thinking outside the box :-)Is the Casebook part of The Plan? Bilbo/Belbo Baggins should be pulled in for further questioning.
Les Diaboliques at work!
Rosey X |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Tuesday, 04 February 2003 - 10:11 pm | | Thank you for explaining who was Mr. Bedford,
Simon. And thanks John and Chris on the subjects
of the tidal waters at Chiswick and the
Thorneycroft firm.
By the way, if the checques were in Monty's
pocket to help identify him, how was he to know
if they would not be water-damaged by submersion.
Was there anything special about his clothing?
Aluminum sided pockets to prevent contents from
getting wet, for instance?
Jeff |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Wednesday, 05 February 2003 - 04:47 am | | Robert M's theory Montague was a Knight Templar who fled to Australia is interesting.I tried to find if Monty was a Mason (like so many of his
relatives, Lionel, and Uncle Thomas in Australia,
for instance).The United Grand Lodge...or somesuch, replied that he was not registered as a member of any lodges at Oxford, or at the Inns of Court.But the wording was so circumspect, I felt I had not asked the right question.
Several people are seeking to divine fresh clues from the ten press reports of MJDs Inquest.
I would rather we located additional official records.
For instance, IF Scotland Yard did ,in 1889, come round to believing MJD was JTR, would they have submitted a Home Office report to the
Treasury Solicitor or whoever the Police's legal adviser was, to see if they could issue a statement to the press that they believed MJD to be JTR.And could they have received legal advice that, no, they could not publicly implicate the deceased MJD because his guilt had not been tested in a court;(That is, no fair trial)? |
Author: Robert Maloney
Wednesday, 05 February 2003 - 09:35 am | | Thanks, John and you're very welcome, Rosemary.
Yes, what an amazing coincidence, Rosey ;-) It's back to Amazon - double event this time...
as I think I'll also follow the adventures of Belbo, Diotallevi and Casaubon. It might help me to predict with some precision - the orbit of the pendulum within..."The Plan".
Rob |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Wednesday, 05 February 2003 - 09:11 pm | | Simon--Hi. In regards to your post of February 2nd...
My notes disagreed with the date you quoted from Howells & Skinner, so I went back and checked a couple of sources. The following information is from Paul Begg's Uncensored Facts [first edition]. He states that the minutes of the Blackheath Cricket, Football, and Lawn Tennis, Co., for December 21st, 1888 state the following:
"The Honorable Secretary and Treasurer, Mr. M. J. Druitt, having gone abroad, it was resolved that he be and he is hereby removed from the post of Honorary Secretary and Treasurer." [Begg, p. 177]
I don't know why this disagrees with Howells & Skinner, but if correct it would have Druitt getting the boot 10 days before his body was found in the Thames. Not suprising, I suppose, since members of the Cricket Club were connected to the school. Best wishes, RP |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Wednesday, 05 February 2003 - 10:02 pm | | Dear RJ,
He just missed the boot...splash!
Rosey :-) |
Author: Robert Maloney
Wednesday, 05 February 2003 - 10:18 pm | | Hi folks,
As we all know, Catharine Eddowes had a sister named Elizabeth. She married (according to my records) a Thomas Fisher, of 33 Hatcliffe Street, Greenwich. Is this address the same as Hatcliffe Close(?) which is fairly 'close' to where Druitt taught at Eliot Place? Or, am I way off? :-O Thanks.
"The Lizzie Fisher Angle Play"
Rob |
Author: Chris Phillips
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 03:35 am | | R.J. Palmer
Howells and Skinner [1988 edition] give the date of Druitt's removal as 31st December. I wonder if this comes ultimately from Rosenwater's paper in The Cricketer? |
Author: Chris Phillips
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 03:48 am | | Robert Maloney
I see what you mean about Hatcliffe Close, Blackheath, but I think Hatcliffe Street must be a different one. I can't find it on a map, but this web page lists it with a SE10 postcode, as part of "Peninsula Ward", Greenwich:
http://www.greenwich.gov.uk/council/yc/wards/peninsula.htm
The "peninsula" is the piece of land jutting northwards into the loop of the Thames just east of Greenwich (where the Millennium Dome was built). So not particularly close to Blackheath, which has a SE3 postcode. |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 05:20 am | | | Forbes Benignus Winslow did pioneering work at his private asylum at Hammersmith.His son, Lyttleton Stewart Forbes Winslow, joined his father there.Later, the Winslow boy moved to private consulting rooms in the West End.I wonder if he kept up his Hammersmith asylum and whether it had any link to MJDs being in the area? |
Author: chris scott
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 12:22 pm | | Hi John R
I have found and transcribed an account from 1886 (26 June from the Daily news) of a legal action (The case of Tanfani v Winslow) in which L.S.Forbes Winslow (the defendant) is described as below in the charge:
" for having caused her to be taken by two of his servants in a brougham to 23, Cavendish-square, where the defendant resided, and from thence to Brandeberg House, Hammersmith, of which he was the registered proprietor, where she was detained for four months."
I hope this is of use in your query re the Hammersmith establishment.
Chris S |
Author: chris scott
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 02:05 pm | | Another mysterious death in the Thames!
Among the newspaper articles I have been researching recently I came across the inquest report below. This was in the News of the World of 19th sept 1886. From the date it obviously has no direct bearing on the case but the interest lies in the fact that the young medic found dead in the Thames in strange circumstances was the assistant to Dr Sequiera, first doctor on the scene of the Eddowes murder. I hope this might be of interest.
From News of the World 19 September 1886
YESTERDAY'S INQUESTS AND ACCIDENTS
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF A PHYSICIAN IN THE THAMES
Yesterday, Mr. W. Carter held an inquest at High-street, Lambeth, on Mr. Everard Woods, aged 26, an assistant physician and surgeon to Mr. Sequiera, Leman-street, Whitechapel.
William Boorer, a waterman, said on Wednesday evening while standing on the Lambeth pier, he was accosted by two bricklayers, who said, "Have you got a boat?" Witness replied in the affirmative, when they said: "A man has jumped from the Albert Embankment wall into the Thames, opposite Doulton's pottery." The two men then hurried away towards Westminster Bridge, and witness saw no more of them. Immediately after they left witness procured some rope drags and entered his boat. He rowed to the spot indicated by the men, and commenced dragging, but without success. At 11 o'clock the moon shone brilliantly, and as he (witness) was looking over the Embankment wall he noticed a dark object floating near the Lambeth Bridge. As the tide receded it left the body on the muddy bank. He discovered the deceased lying face downwards.
Mr. Francis Gurney Mason, said he was a physician in Leman-street, East. He identified the deceased, whom he had known for upwards of eight years. The deceased of late had been assisting Dr. Sequiera. The deceased in consequence of suffering from consumption resigned his position and left the house, and witness took up his position. On Wednesday witness called upon his friend at Trinity-square, Borough, where he had engaged apartments. The deceased appeared in good spirits and was perfectly rational, and told witness that he felt better, and had eaten a mutton chop. Witness left about seven o'clock. The deceased was not in want of money, as his family were in good circumstances. Witness could not account for the deceased being found in the Thames. Deceased had never suggested or threatened to commit suicide. The deceased's gold watch and leather pocket case were missing. The only idea witness could form was that he went for a walk on the Embankment and was murdered. Deceased was the last man in the world, in his opinion, to commit suicide.
Mrs. Charlotte Elizabeth Davey, the wife of a physician, residing at the Great House, Leyton, Essex, and mother of the deceased, said that she felt convinced her son had not committee suicide. On the 12th inst. he was present at his brother's wedding, and he then appeared very cheerful. Witness had also received letters from him, and all of them were written in a rational way. Arrangements had been made for the deceased, with a friend, to take a trip to New Zealand next month for the benefit of his health. Between seven and eight pounds in money were found at the deceased's apartments.
Mr. Isaac Sheppard, Coroner's-officer, deposed that he had examined the body but failed to find any marks of violence.
The jury returned a verdict, "That the deceased was found drowned in the River Thames, but how he got into the water the jury had no proof." |
Author: Robert Maloney
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 06:06 pm | | Chris Phillips,
Thanks - looks like another one of my brilliant ideas gone to pot! Maybe. :-)
Rob |
Author: chris scott
Thursday, 06 February 2003 - 07:26 pm | | Hi all
To give people a better idea of the physical layout around Valentine's school Im uploading an aerial photo of Eliot Place in Blackheath. The red "x" marks the location of No 9
Hope this helps
Chris S
 |
Author: Simon Owen
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 12:00 am | | My belief over the 21st/31st date is that Paul Begg is wrong and Howells and Skinner are right , the reason being the date. 31st fell on a Monday , whereas 21st was a Thursday I believe : all the dates I have seen for the cricket club show them meeting on a Monday.
Hope this is helpful ! |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 05:21 am | | Who is this amazing Chris Scott?
Dragging Ripperologists into the twenty first century. Great picture, Chris.And amazing newspaper article research too.
I had been thinking more maps would also help our deliberations.
As regards Chris Phillips' question:no, Howells & Skinner do not seem to have derived the date for MJD's removal as Secretary of the Cricket Club from Irving Rosenwater's article in "The Cricketer" of January, 1973.It does not mention it.I think this was their original research.Paul Begg was a colleague later, so he may have mistakenly transcribed the 21st instead of the 31st. |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 06:39 am | | Hi John
Many thanks for the very kind comments!! Glad you found the pic useful - I always find this puts things into perspective more. Also glad you're finding the newpaper articles useful.
My particular buzz is from digging out material that may not have been seen before or may not have had the circulation it might merit. Because I don't hold a brief for any particular suspect, I can really look where the fancy takes me and see what comes up.
All best and thanks again for the comments
Regards
Chris Scott |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 04:29 pm | | Much has been made by Sir Melville Macnaghten and
newspaper reports of MJDs suicide, that "friends"
suspected all was not well with Montague Druitt.
(A bit of British understatement!).
Has any researcher turned up just who those "friends" might have been?
I have studied Winchester, New College, Oxford. and Inner Temple records to find comtempories of MJD recurring.Cricket records too should hurl up
coincidings.
Names I have come up with are: RICHARD BETHEL ALLAN PRITCHARD-started at Winchester same term(Short Half Term, 1870);Both played in Winchester X1,(1876); both were on the Honours List for(or at)New College, Oxford,(1877-1880).
I thought there might be a link in the name LACEY or LACY(spelt both ways in the same family):with
FREDERICK HENRY LACY,M.A. teaching at Valentine's School,Blackheath, and another CHARLES EDWARD LACY
a solicitor at 9 Kings Bench Walk(b.1846) who was later listed (1903)a teacher at a boys school.And of course, FRANCIS EDEN LACEY,Secretary of the M.C.C.born Wareham, Dorset; Inner Temple Nov, 1886
;he had a brother Howard(a rancher in Texas) they were sons of a Dorset solicitor.I notice one of the Gentlemen of Bournemouth who MJD played with against the visiting Parsee 3-4 August,1888 also
included an "H.Lacey".
The local Bournemouth newspaper also listed visitors to Dorset in its columns in 1888.One who was mentioned in mid November as staying with W.H.Druitt,(Monty's brother) was a RICHARD BALL.
He was a London solicitor of 6 Clements Inn, where he was a partner in the firm Ball and Capel-Cure.
Does anyone any ideas from all this?
Sorry for all these questions.
Another one:Where did Monty worship? The Druitts were fairly devout.(Parish magazines?). |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 04:49 pm | | I have found the team listings for 3 matches in which MJD is noted as playing. Here is a full list of his fellow players for each one:
Gentlemen of Bournemouth v Parsees
3rd-4th August 1888
Andrews
Kinsey
R Micklethwaite
Lewid
M J Druitt
P Bevan
E Cusse
H Lacey
Marshall
F B Bingham
Newman
Blackheath Club v Brothers Christopherson
8th september 1888
F G Monkland
E Woodman
R S Barrow
M J Druitt
M C Blaker
T H Nicholls
R A Fegan
G R Hutchinson
F S Ireland
J H Fegan
The details of these two matches are alreay on the casebook but I have since found a newspaper account (from the Daily News of 27th April 1886) listing another match in which MJD played.
Blackheath v G G Hearne's Eleven
26th April 1886
Mr F H Lacy
Mr G Stokes
Mr S Christopherson
Mr L Stokes
Mr J Cruickshank
Mr C L Hemmerde
Mr M J Druitt
Mr F S Ireland
Mr J M Dale
Rev J W Marshall
Mr G R Hutchinson
If we look at the lists for Blackheath for April 1886 and September 1888, the following names (apart from Druitt) recur:
G R Hutchinson
F S Ireland
It is possible that the Marshall mentioned in the Bournemouth team is the Rev J W Marshall but that is only surmise and the geographical distance means it may be unlikely.
So Messrs Hutchinson and Ireland were known to MJD for at least two and a half years.
If I can find out anything more about any of these cricketing gentlemen, I will post it.
regards
Chris S |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 04:51 pm | | John
Further to your discussion of the LACY/LACEY connection, you'll see there was an F H Lacy playing with MJD in the 1886 game
Regards
Chris S |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 05:51 pm | | John
I am pretty certain that the S Christopherson mentioned in posts above is
Stanley Christopherson born 1862
London Stock Exchange Clerk living (in 1881 census) at Grove House, Kidbrook Grove, Charlton, Woolwich. The family is as follows:
Derman CHRISTOPHERSON Head M Male 45 Eltham, Kent, England Member Of London Stock Exchange
Catherine CHRISTOPHERSON Wife M Female 44 Camberwell, Surrey, England
Harold CHRISTOPHERSON Son U Male 20 Greenwich, Kent, England Undergraduate Oxford University
Stanley CHRISTOPHERSON Son U Male 19 Greenwich, Kent, England Clerk London Stock Exchange
Mabel H. CHRISTOPHERSON Daur Female 13 Kidbrook, Kent, England Scholar
Douglas CHRISTOPHERSON Son Male 12 Kidbrook, Kent, England Scholar
Malcolm CHRISTOPHERSON Son Male 10 Kidbrook, Kent, England Scholar
Horace CHRISTOPHERSON Son Male 8 Kidbrook, Kent, England Scholar
Derman CHRISTOPHERSON Son Male 6 Kidbrook, Kent, England Scholar
This correlates to a large degree with the initials of the Brothers Christopherson even to there being two siblings with the initial D
I am going to check all the names of Druitt's team mates against the Cambridge Alumni lists to see if any were at University with him
Regards
Chris |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 05:55 pm | | Hi John
Me again!!! the only candidate for Mr C.L.Hemmerde in the team list is Charles Hemmerde, who in the 1881 census is listed as 13 year old pupil at Winchester, MJD's old school. Full census entry is:
Chas. HEMMERDE Household
Male
Other Information:
Birth Year
Birthplace Peckham, Middlesex, England
Age 13
Occupation Scholar
Marital Status U
Head of Household John T. BRAMSTON
Relation Boarder
Address: Winchester College |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 06:16 pm | | Last one for the moment - I'm reasonably certainly Ive found the "Rev J W Marshall" listed as playing with MJD in 1886. The one below was Vicar of St John the Evangelist in Blackheath from 1875-1909. the details below are from his entry in the Cambridge Alumni Listing:
Marshall, Joseph William.
College: TRINITY
Entered: Michs. 1854
Born:
Died: Sept. 10, 1915
Adm. sizar (age 18) at TRINITY, May 29, 1854. S. of Joseph Edward, solicitor, of Cambridge. B. there [Dec. 5, 1835]. School, King Edward's, Birmingham. Matric. Michs. 1854; B.A. 1858. Cricket ‘blue,’ 1855-7. Ord. deacon (Worcester) 1859; priest (London) 1860; C. of Martley, Worcs., 1859-61. C. of St Martin's, Birmingham, 1861-2. C. of Handsworth, 1862-4. V. of Birchfield, Staffs., 1864-75. V. of St John-the-Evangelist, Blackheath, 1875-1909. Hon. Canon of Rochester, 1900-15. Canon of Southwark, Surrey, 1906-15. Married, 1864, Mary Elizabeth, eldest dau. of the Rev. Canon Miller, D.D., V. of Greenwich. Author, A Simple Liturgy for Children's Services. Editor of the Letters of Elsie Marshall (his daughter, martyred in China in 1895). Died at Blackheath, Sept. 10, 1915. Brother of John H. (1856). (Scott, MSS.; Crockford; Who was Who.) |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 06:25 pm | | Also found J H Fegan from the September 1888 match, again from the Cambridge listing. Again, a Blackheath connection - he went to school there.
Fegan, John Herbert Craugle.
College: ST JOHN'S
Entered: Michs. 1888
Born: Jan. 20, 1872
Died:
Adm. pens. at ST JOHN'S, Oct. 15, 1888. S. of Richard, M.D., of Blackheath, Kent [and Annie Sarah Pease]. B. Jan. 20, 1872, at Old Charlton, Kent. School, Blackheath Proprietary (Rev. E. Wilton). Matric. Michs. 1888. L.S.A., 1898. M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P., 1898. Of the Ministry of Pensions; retired. Resident at The Close, Leverstock Green, Herts., in 1941. (Medical Directory, 1941.) |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 06:31 pm | | Positively the last one!!! I found the census entry for J H and R A Regan with Blackheath address and father was a doctor.
Address:
Blackheath Rd 1 Charlton Pk Ter
Charlton Next Woolwich, Kent, England
Household:
Richard FEGAN Head M Male 41 Ireland Doc Med St Andrews S.A.C.P.3 Gen Practioner S.R.C.S.F.
Annie S. FEGAN Wife M Female 33 Beverley, York, England
Richard A. FEGAN Son Male 11 Charlton, Kent, England Scholar
John H.P. FEGAN Son Male 9 Charlton, Kent, England Scholar
Minnie K. FEGAN Daur Female 6 Charlton, Kent, England Scholar
Ethel I. FEGAN Daur Female 4 Charlton, Kent, England Scholar
Gwendoline E. FEGAN Daur Female 1 Charlton, Kent, England
That is quite enough for tonight!!!
Chris S |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 07:14 pm | | Dear Robt, Maloney,
Since C.T.G. mentioned the Torpedo works and you was thinking along certain lines with regard to MJD's death, I thought I should remind any scoffers of the case of "The Man Who Never Was".
Brit.Intelligence 'invented' a drowned man...were
they thinking of their own trick, 'agent' Druitt?
Rosey :-) |
Author: Robin
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 07:45 pm | | Hi John (Ruffels)
re your: Where did Monty worship?
As he is buried in his family's plot at Wimborne Minster Church, Dorset, may I suggest you have a look at http://www.wimborneminster.org.uk
I think it's C of E.
Hope this gives you a lead.
Regards,
Robin |
Author: Simon Owen
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 08:46 pm | | Rosie , British Intelligence didn't even exist in 1888 !
Surely you cannot be suggesting that the British Government drowned poor Monty and then intended to fob him off as the Ripper to convince the public there would be no more murders ?
This could only happen if the real culprit was being protected/hidden away by the Establishment - surely not !  |
Author: Robert Maloney
Friday, 07 February 2003 - 08:56 pm | | Dear Rosemary,
Could it have been one of the original plays from British Intel's playbook?...According to an article on "The Man Who Never Was"...one of the men responsible for the deception was Lt. Cmdr. Ewen MONTAGU, a reservist who represented naval intelligence on the interservice XX Committee (XX for double cross).
Hmmm...was Druitt a double agent...or, just a Double? :-)
Rob |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Saturday, 08 February 2003 - 07:33 pm | | Thanks for that snowstorm of postings Chris Scott.
Have you set eyes on Irving Rosenwater's THE CRICKETER, January, 1973 article "Jack The Ripper- Sort of Cricketing Person?"? Amongst other things, it says MJDs address for membership of the M.C.C. from 1883, was " 9 Eliot Place, Blackheath" right up to 1888.The Druitt's were a devout mob, so I'll bet he chatted about cricket every Sunday morning with the Reverend Joe Marshall at St John-The-Evangelists.
Thanks,Robin, for the Wimborne link.Very interesting.
As for "The Man Who Never Was" and Montague Druitt being a member of the XX Committee,I know in 1876 he was a member of the Winchester X1.So that must have been a promotion.
But:Was MJD really Walter Sickert?
"I saw him there again today"..... |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Sunday, 09 February 2003 - 12:29 am | | Sorry to intrude again, but I was at the 42nd
Street Library today, and was researching some
material for another person on the Casebook
Board. This morning, I noted the obituary of
Lord Aberconway, who I believe is the grandson
of Sir Melville MacNaughten. If I'm correct
his mother, Lady Aberconway, was the daughter
of Sir Melville, who is referred to by Donald
Rumbelow in THE COMPLETE JACK THE RIPPER (1975
Signet paperback edition, p. 126 - 127) with
reference to Monty Druitt.
First point - if I am right about the MacNaughten
Aberconway connection, is it possible that other
family papers connected to Sir Melville and his
Scotland Yard career (and the Ripper Case) may
be in the estate? If so, can they be made
available?
Second point - thinking of MacNaughten and
Aberconway, I also considered looking up our
coroner friend, Dr. Diplock. I did not find
anything about him in the indexes of THE TIMES
of London, but I did come across another Diplock
which made me wonder. Could Dr. Diplock be
a grand father or great grandfather to William
John Kenneth Diplock, Lord Justice of Appeals
in the 1970s? If so, might there be any papers
in existance there of the coroner's career?
Jeff |
Author: Chris Phillips
Sunday, 09 February 2003 - 04:32 am | | Jeff
There are several volumes of correspondence deposited at the British Library by Macnaghten's daughter, Lady Aberconway. You can see summaries on the online manuscript catalogue.
These include some of Sir Melville's correspondence, including four undated letters from the journalist G. R. Sims ("Dagonet"), a notable publisher of the "drowned doctor" story.
I looked at these letters a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately they do not refer to the Whitechapel numbers, but they do imply that the two were on very friendly terms, and that it was not unusual for Macnaghten to pay an unannounced Sunday-afternoon visit to Sims. |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Sunday, 09 February 2003 - 01:02 pm | | Hi Chris,
Thanks for the website. Now I have to learn
how to use it.
Jeff |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Sunday, 09 February 2003 - 01:20 pm | | Chris,
I was just rereading your notes about the members
of the Cricket teams (nice research job, by the
way). That man, Hemmerde, has a very unusual
last name - though no more than Druitt I suppose.
I have found someone with the same last name -
linked to a 20th Century murder case as a
prosecutor. It is Mr. E. G. Hemmerde of Liverpool, who prosecuted (and technically won)
the trial of William Herbert Wallace in 1931.
This is what Edgar Lustgarten wrote of him
in THE MURDER AND THE TRIAL (New York: Charles
Scribners' Sons, 1958), p. 72.
"Hemmerde was something of a stormy petrel. At
the fiercely competitive Liverpool Bar of the
early nineteen hundreds he had established himself
with such rapidity and brilliance that there were
those who predicted an even greater future for him
than for his dashing colleague F.E.Smith [Later
the Lord Chancellor, Lord Birkenhead]. He took
silk early, entered politics, and for a while his
youthful promise looked certain of fulfillment.
But in later years his career went awry. Private
transactions, ill-judged or unludky, did him grave
and permanent disservice; irrepressible combativeness and an unspoken tongue involved him
in injurious dissensions; an honourable but
unbending pride did nothing to win back those he
had estranged. His practice suffered, and though
he always could command a fair volume of work
upon the Northern Circuit, there is not the faintest doubt that in the twenties and thirties
his status did not equal his professional
capacity." [p.72]
Maybe the Hemmerde on the cricket team was a
relative - and possibly another lawyer.
Jeff |
Author: chris scott
Sunday, 09 February 2003 - 01:35 pm | | Hi Jeff and thanks for the lead:-)
There could well be some connection between them because I found in the 1901 census 2 Hemmerdes born in Peckham.
One is Charles (aged 33) living in Lee and described as a Stock Jobber Agent
the other is E.Hemmerde (aged 29)living in Battersea and a Barrister
For two of such an unusual surname (there are only 4 in the whole 1901 census) and to have the same birthplace means a relationship is almost certain
regards
Chris S |
Author: Chris Phillips
Sunday, 09 February 2003 - 01:43 pm | | Jeff
I do find the British Library manuscript catalogue can be a bit frustrating to use at times, and doesn't seem always to work as it should. But it can be very useful.
Another place where I was surprised to find British Library - and other UK - material listed was this one (mainly American):
http://lcweb.loc.gov/coll/nucmc/nucmc.html |
Author: Chris Phillips
Sunday, 09 February 2003 - 01:43 pm | | Jeff
I do find the British Library manuscript catalogue can be a bit frustrating to use at times, and doesn't seem always to work as it should. But it can be very useful.
Another place where I was surprised to find British Library - and other UK - material listed was this one (mainly American):
http://lcweb.loc.gov/coll/nucmc/nucmc.html |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Sunday, 09 February 2003 - 07:03 pm | | Chris,
There is more on the barrister, Edward Hemmerde,
in Jonathan Goodman's THE KILLING OF JULIA
WALLACE (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1969)
on pages 159 -165 (and numerous pages after that
too). This Hemmerde can't be the E. Hemmerde
in Peckham. This one was born in 1872. He died
May 24, 1948. He was in Oxford in the early
1890s (future legal eagles F.E.Smith and John
Simon were fellow students at the time). If he
is connected connected to the Peckham barrister
or Monty's fellow cricketeer, they would be his
uncles or possibly his father.
Jeff |
Author: JOHN RUFFELS
Monday, 10 February 2003 - 05:06 am | | Fine work again Jeff B., and both Chrisses, (P&S),
my notes show :1903 Directory London:DR LEONARD BRAMAH DIPLOCK, Surgeon, 21 Heathfield Terrace".
Of course, MJD's Inquest Dr Diplock too, had that distinctive middle name.(For full details of "our" Dr Diplock, Paul Begg in Chapter 12, "JTR:The Uncensored Facts"cites obits in WEST LONDON OBSERVER, 7 May, 1892;ACTON,CHISWICK & TURNHAM GREEN GAZETTE, 7 May, 1892.Further detail.
THE CHISWICK TIMES 9 April, 1912 and 10 May, 1918.
Once again, the very informative Irving Rosenwater article in THE CRICKETER,January,1973,
lists "C.L.Hemmerde" as a regular member of Blackheath in the 1880's along with:" Lord Harris, the Christophersons, Dr Leonard Stokes (Kent),F.S Ireland (Kent & devon), F.G.Monkland (Gloucestershire), R.P.Sewell (Kent & essex), and C.L.Hemmerde (Winchester)".
BELL'S LIFE apparently, charts M.J.Druitt's cricketing career rather well through those years. |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Monday, 10 February 2003 - 08:33 pm | | Hi John,
The middle name of Dr. Leonard Bramah Diplock,
is unusual, but it is also familiar to afficionados of detective stories. The creator
of the first blind detective, Max Carrados, was
Ernest Bramah. It is the only time (until now)
that I have found a person with that name.
Jeff |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Tuesday, 11 February 2003 - 08:08 pm | | Dear Jeff,
Also the name of a 19th century locksmith.
Rosey :-) |
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