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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through September 17, 1999
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects:
Later Suspects [ 1910 - Present ]:
Barnett, Joseph:
Archive through September 17, 1999
Author: Leanne
Tuesday, 14 September 1999 - 04:36 am |        | G'day Glenda, Jules, Caz, Everyone,
When Joseph's Dad died, his eldest son, Daniel, took over as 'breadwinner', while the younger boys were allowed to remain at school. Handwriting was taught in the copperplate style, as was the September 25 'Dear Boss' letter.
This letter contains the lines 'I saved some of the red stuff in a ginger beer bottle'. In Kelly's room, After the discovery of the body, ginger beer bottles were found in an opened cupboard in her room. I don't know if that's important, because I don't know how common this liquid was.
Leanne! |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Tuesday, 14 September 1999 - 05:56 am | | Hi, Leanne:
Ginger beer would have been a popular beverage in London in 1888, so I would not necessarily read too much into a report that ginger beer bottles were supposedly found in the cupboard at 13 Miller's Court. The report about the ginger beer bottles being found in the cupboard of the murder room appeared in an article about the murder that was published in the "Pall Mall Gazette" of November 17, 1888, but has not been independently verified as far as I know. Although Barnett may have been taught to write in a copper plate style, to my knowledge, the police did not ask for samples of his handwriting to compare to the "Dear Boss" letters. On the other hand, it is known that, in October 1888, Scotland Yard contacted the San Francisco police to ask for a sample of Dr. Francis Tumblety's handwriting (Evans and Gainey, "Jack the Ripper: First American Serial Killer," pp. 215 and 220).
Chris George |
Author: Caz
Tuesday, 14 September 1999 - 09:15 am | | Hi All,
Is it conceivable that the Pall Mall Gazette article about ginger beer bottles could have been the work of yet another 'enterprising journalist', in a mischievous attempt to link the Dear Boss letter writer with Kelly's death? We know how these little diversions from the facts creep into the tabloids these days. I don't suppose things were all that different then.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Wolf
Tuesday, 14 September 1999 - 12:15 pm | | "I saved some of the proper red stuff in a Coca Cola bottle...", "empty bottles of Coca Cola were found in her room."
A modern equivelant to Ginger Beer.(We now all drink a much softer version and call it Ginger Ale.)
Wolf. |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Tuesday, 14 September 1999 - 01:37 pm | | Hi, Wolf:
Of course, ginger beer still exists in England so ginger ale is not really the successor to ginger ale, they exist side by side in the UK. But certainly as I indicated before, ginger beer was a popular beverage, and as you rightly point out, akin to Coca Cola for the time.
Chris George |
Author: Leanne
Tuesday, 14 September 1999 - 06:22 pm | | G'day everyone,
OK, so let's ignore the existance of the ginger beer bottles and assume it was coincidence. By pointing out that Joseph Barnett had received an education in 'Copperplate style', I was merely pointing out that it was POSSIBLE that he could have written the 'Dear Boss' letter.
On Tuesday, Glenda said that Barnett didn't have the skills to read the newspapers to Kelly, as he stated.
LEANNE! |
Author: Bob Hinton
Tuesday, 14 September 1999 - 11:44 pm | | Dear Leanne,
I think you're way off base here. Writing is far more reliant on outside influences other than the style taught.
Regardless of the style learnt, your writing after a while takes on your own personal flavour. If you use writing in your work, such as a teacher or journalist it soon becomes corrupted to suit your use. A policeman needing to take quick accurate notes may not worry too much about legibility as long as he can read it and so on.
The style of the Dear Boss letter is practically as taught and so we must therefore be looking to someone whose handwriting style has a need for legibility, such as a clerk or bookeeper.
It is inconcievable that a manual worker such as Barnett, who had no need for handwriting in his occupation, could possibly write in the style he was taught as a child so many years before.
Examine Abberines handwriting. He was taught the same flowing style as shown in the letter (probably), but over the years it has re-formed to create handwriting that is definitely his own.
I'm not sure why you're trying to make the link between Barnett and the letter anyway as it is more than probable that the letter hand nothing to do with the killer.
It is far too dramatic without being frightening. This nonsense about collecting blood in a ginger beer bottle is ludicrous. Can you honestly see a killer stalking his victims laden down with knives, empty bottles etc. Has anyone ever given any thought to the absolute impossibility of transferring blood from a dying person into a bottle anyway?
It was clearly written a la Dickens ' to make your flesh creep'
all the best
Bob Hinton |
Author: Caz
Wednesday, 15 September 1999 - 03:42 am | | Hi All,
Of course the ginger beer bottle reference in the Dear Boss letter was a sick joke on the writer's part. To be fair I don't think any of us believe that 'Yours Truly', whether he be JB, JtR or an unknown hoaxer, had actually contemplated trying to collect blood in this way. Bob is dead right about the image being included solely for effect. But as we don't know what talent the real Jack might have possessed in the literary department, who knows if he could have got a serious buzz out of putting a touch of black comedy and sensationalism into his own writing? Couldn't a serial killer see it as his business 'to make your flesh creep' in as many ways as poss, whether for real or using a bit of invention?
I do think that most people who had learned the formal, strictly-taught and painstaking method of copperplate handwriting during their most impressionable years could revert to it with a bit of care and thought in order to disguise the individual and free-flowing hand which evolves over time. But I don't think that would apply to the likes of Barnett. I am sure any policeman or doctor could write in this neat style if they had the time or inclination, but most of the latter don't seem to care about their prescriptions being legible!
Digressing slightly, I don't know how punctuation was taught in those days, but some of the letters appear to get away with using an absolute minimum. Was this quite usual, or could it have been another way of disguising an individual style of forming sentences?
Also I believe there is a method of looking at the average length of a writer's sentences, taking into account the number of verbs used etc, which can not only be an indicator of intelligence (as opposed to education), but can also point to which letters are likely to have been written by the same individual. Apparently, certain aspects of sentence construction are very difficult to disguise.
Love,
Caz |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Wednesday, 15 September 1999 - 05:56 am | | Hi, Leanne:
I have to agree with Bob Hinton that Barnett's adult handwriting style was probably not the correct and clear copperplate style seen in the Dear Boss letters which implies more the style of a clerk who had to write in a clear hand. I also agree with Bob that the Dear Boss writer was intending to shock with his (her?) reference to the ginger beer bottle since it would have been impractical to collect the blood of a victim in a ginger beer bottle. In the same way, the Lusk letter writer intended to shock with the reference to frying and eating the other half of the kidney.
I have just noticed something interesting in Mr. Paley's book. In the paperback Headline edition opposite p. 175 appears a sketch titled "The Murdered Woman's Room." This sketch appears to show a secretary with a washbasin in the corner where the infamous "FM" can be seen (or not seen, depending on your preference) in the classic photograph. This would seem to imply, if the sketch is correct, that the secretary may have obscured the corner to make it impossible for the murderer to scrawl the letters on the wall, or indeed for blood to splatter there. Possibly this secretary or low bureau was removed before the big photograph was taken and the smaller photograph taken from that side of the bed. Any thoughts, Ripperologists?
Chris George |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Wednesday, 15 September 1999 - 06:37 am | | Hi, all:
Further to my last post, note this from "The Standard" of November 12, 1888: ". . . the bed upon which the body was stretched. . . was placed next to a disused washstand in the corner behind the door, and opposite the two windows. . ."
Chris George |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Wednesday, 15 September 1999 - 01:02 pm | | Hi again all:
If as I assume, the sketch of the interior of 13 Miller's Court may be correct, that the washbasin was in the corner of the room by the bed, as seemingly confirmed by the wording of the report in "The Standard," this appears to be another nail in the coffin of the Diary. That is, Mr. Maybrick could not, as the Diary implies he did, have daubed the FM on the wall because the washstand was in the way. It seems that the Maybrickians may have been too fast to come to a possibly incorrect conclusion on the basis of the famous photograph showing a mark on an area of the wall that may in fact have been obscured at the time of the murder and until after the police arrived.
Chris George |
Author: Leanne
Wednesday, 15 September 1999 - 04:51 pm | | G'day Bob and everyone,
Thanks for your comments on Wednesday.
As the 'Dear Boss' letter and 'Saucy Jacky' postcard, could have been written by a journalist, (to 'feed' peoples imaginations), do you believe that the 'From Hell' letter with the half Kidney, may have been authentic?
If Joseph Barnett WAS trying to read the newspapers to Kelly, to discourage her from prostitution, those first letters would have been just what he wanted in his attempts to scare her, especially if she liked ginger beer.
I'm interested in reading your comments!
CHRIS: Good observation of the 'washbasin'. Shall we move to another message board?
LEANNE! |
Author: Bob Hinton
Wednesday, 15 September 1999 - 11:39 pm | | Dear Leanne,
The one thing that has always struck me about the 'Ripper' letters was the lack of passion. Compare them to the letters written by Berkowitz which went something like
'Hello from the gutters and the sewers of New York amongst the dog vomit and puss filled blood' I'm quoting from memory now.
Now compare that with 'Grand work the last job was...'
If any of the letters are genuine I would put my money on the Lusk letter. It has a certain passion about it and importantly was sent to a person identifiable as the 'enemy' not a impersonal news agency.
all the best
Bob Hinton |
Author: Leanne
Thursday, 16 September 1999 - 04:06 am | | G'day Bob,
Reading the 'JtR A-Z', C.M. MacLeod suggested that the author was aged 20-45 with rudimentary education, with enough brains to hold down a steady job and mask his personality.
Thomas J. Mann suggested that he was semi-literate with elementary copybook habits and had little familiarity with the act of writing.
The 'A-Z' authors note that 'Sor' and 'Mishter' are two normal 19th century transcriptions, indicating a stage Irish accent.
Interesting!!!!
LEANNE. |
Author: Caz
Thursday, 16 September 1999 - 05:40 am | | Hi Leanne and All,
The Lusk letter is interesting. And don't forget the Irish-sounding 'prasarved' too.
Now, I would think it unlikely that a semi-literate would be able to write anything but the very basic message he was trying to convey. I doubt very much that he would be capable of writing with a 'stage Irish accent'. And certainly someone whose first language was not English would have even greater difficulty pretending to be Irish. Which leaves me with the feeling we may have another English joker here with more than half a brain.
And who was the suspicious-looking character who made enquiries about Lusk's address the day before the letter and kidney arrived? He was said to be about 45, six foot tall, wore a black felt hat and sported a dark beard and moustache. He spoke with what was taken to be an Irish accent. This was according to Emily Marsh who was in her father's leather shop at 218 Jubilee Street, Mile End Road when the furtive stranger walked in. Emily read out Lusk's address and he noted it down. She was so anxious about the man who kept his eyes on the floor that she sent the shop boy after him to see what he did. This report appeared in the Daily Telegraph of 20th October.
Dare we connect the two events, the Irish-sounding stranger followed by the Irish-sounding missive?
Or do we put it down to another coincidence or a girl's imperfect testimony mixed with a bit of imagination?
Anyone who thinks the Lusk letter may be genuine has to consider the possibility that Emily may well have come face to face with Jack....
Love,
Caz |
Author: Guy Hatton
Thursday, 16 September 1999 - 06:57 am | | Hi Caz!
Regarding the coincidence of suspicious Irish-sounding man and Lusk letter, a further suggestion that the two may be linked is given by the fact that the address as given by Ms.Marsh was incomplete, and that the address on the package received by Lusk appears to echo this incompleteness. Of course, this apparent connection does not help us determine whether or not the man was the Whitechapel Murderer, unfortunately!
All the Best
Guy |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Thursday, 16 September 1999 - 08:22 am | | Hi, all:
Per Leanne's kind suggestion, I have moved the conversation about the washstand in the corner of Mary Jane Kelly's room to the "The FM on Kelly's Wall" board. Although others may see it differently, I think this may be an important observation because it renders moot all debate about whether it the initials "FM" were placed on the wall by the murderer. If the washstand was there, the killer could not have put those initials (if such they are) on the wall.
Chris George |
Author: Ashling
Friday, 17 September 1999 - 02:48 am | | Hi y’all.
On the Liz Stride board, on Sept. 15, 1999 - Caz wrote ---
“What you say sounds so plausible, doesn't it? But doesn't it also sound much like the argument for Joe Barnett killing Mary Kelly?”
No Caz, it does not.
1) Joe was never arrested for beating Mary Kelly.
2) Whether Joe felt wildly angry or just mildly frustrated when he moved out of Miller’s Court - he was on friendly visiting terms with Mary hours before she died, and had been for days. We have several neighbor’s statements verifying this.
3) The number of friends and neighbors testifying in court, giving statements to police, and/or being interviewed by the press on Mary’s case is greater than on all the other vics put together.
None of those folks claimed Joe was violent towards Mary or anyone else.
They do say Joe didn’t want Mary to sell her body on the streets. My husband does not want me to be a prostitute - a feeling shared by millions of men towards their Significant Others ... That preference doesn’t automatically qualify any of
them as insanely jealous murderers. If I became a prostitute, my husband might FEEL like killing me, but in reality he’d just call a good lawyer (solicitor) and file for a divorce.
4) When Joe found out about Mary’s murder - he didn’t run down to the police station and make drunken threats.
5) Mary was not seen arguing and/or struggling with a man that she appeared to be previously acquainted with.
6) Stride was not killed in her own home. // Mary was not killed on the streets.
7) The thing that Stride and Mary had in common that night is - they got drunk. That nicely accounts for their fire engine and singing behavior. “A violet I plucked from my mother’s grave” sounds neither happy nor carefree to me. Melancholy comes nearer to the mark. When a neighbor started to yell at Mary to shut the heck up -- her husband stopped her. The Mister didn’t say - “Don’t rain on her parade, she’s having a good time.” He said something like -- 'Leave the poor woman alone.' (Sorry, I’m too sleepy to look up the exact wording right now.) His words give a strong indication of Mary’s tone of voice ... so I can’t justify imagining she felt happy-go-lucky that night.
I can play the Maybe Game until the cows come home, or the Millenium rings in ... without getting a jot closer to the heart of this case. It’s taking all my spare time to just study and evaluate the facts ...
Happy Hunting,
Janice |
Author: Ashling
Friday, 17 September 1999 - 03:31 am | | BOB H: Your comment about the lack of passion in the so-called Ripper letters is succinctly insightful. To the best of my recollection from studying SKs over the past 25 years - Most missives from SKs prior to their capture are along the lines of trying to make the world understand their “motives,” or give awareness of the depths of their sickness. There are always exceptions to the "rules," but I’d be interested in hearing any conclusions your research has lead you to in this area.
Thanks,
Janice |
Author: Caz
Friday, 17 September 1999 - 08:02 am | | Hi Janice,
Whoa there, slow down mate. I was only saying that there had been suggestions on this board by Joe Barnettites (does that sound right? :-)) that he killed Mary in the 'height of passion', a phrase I believe you used about Kidney, and it rang bells, that's all. Your arguments against JB being in the same violent league as Kidney sound sensible and well-made to this ripper fan. If anything, the more Kidney becomes a likely suspect for Stride's murder, the less likely it becomes statistically that Kelly was also killed in hot blood by a jealous lover the same time and place as Jack was doing his cold-blooded thing. I'm kind of agreeing with you here.
I guess you are right about Kelly's long lament too. She certainly kept it up for a time, didn't she? Unfortunately we don't know if this was unusual enough behaviour to attach any particular importance to her singing on that fateful night, but it gives an added human touch to the victim, like Eddowes' fire engine impressions, which helps us to remember them as real sentient beings.
I'm off before I ramble any more...
Happy hunting to you too,
Love,
Caz |
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