Archive through August 16, 1999

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Archive through August 16, 1999

Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects: Contemporary Suspects [ 1888 - 1910 ]: Chapman, George (a.k.a. Severin Klosowski): Archive through August 16, 1999

Author: adam Monday, 12 April 1999 - 11:14 am
Hi Ashling I've just spotted the ELA mention in this discussion - sorry for not answering you before. I haven't added this site to the C&D Links page because I found it 3 years ago and the page hasn't changed since! The ELA, of course, is still going strong! John Pope de Locksley is a member of the C&D. He has claimed to be related to Chapman for many years but has never produced any evidence. He wrote an article for Ripperologist about it a few years ago - if you have a fax number I'll send you a copy. Adam
Author: Tina Gaspard Monday, 12 April 1999 - 11:27 am
I also have a problem with Chapman being Jack because of MO. I find it very hard to believe that he would have gone from ripping to poison. the psychological make-up of a poisoner and a "ripper" are markedly different, hence the difference in method. As most know the method is one of the most significant to a serial murderer and the most telling. Poisoning and ripping are not reconcilable, psychologically. Another thing is that he only threatened his wife with a knife. There is no evidence that he followed through then or any other time, at least none that I am aware of.
Author: R.M. Gordon Wednesday, 14 April 1999 - 03:09 pm
Good Afternoon one and all. R. Michael here. Hello Ashling - Interesting article on possible Chapman great great grandson. Needs to be looked into for details. I don't see Chapman in his eyes! I wonder if he has a letter from the old chap? As for the second book, I am now well into it and have about 200+ pages so far completed. Thanks for the heads up on the article addresses. Great stuff as always. Hello Mike - Indeed, if there ever was a three-pipe problem this is it. Holmes would have been in his element. Well worth the effort I would expect. New suprises all the time. Hello Peter - Editor (Who says he is much over worked and says hello to all on the boards) is Mr. David Todd at 632 E. Carson Street #6, Long Beach, California 90807 Since I will owe you a book would you like me to pass it along to the artist for his autograph as well when it comes out? Thanks again. Copyrights on death certificates??? Very interesting. Casebook staff - Is it possible for you to post the Ripperologist article by John Pope de Locksley on your site? Tim Gospand - Welcome - You may want to have a look at Serial Killers at www.easynet.co.uk/ray/serial_killers Peter Kurten is most disturbing. Also, the Zodiac Killer here in California changed his MO as a matter of course. Some do and some do not, they are indeed a group all to themselves and many make up the rules as they go along! Without really knowing where all of the bodies are buried we would be very premature in dismissing Chapman based only on the Ripper MO. Best to all RMG
Author: Ashling Thursday, 15 April 1999 - 02:05 am
Hi Adam, Mike, Peter, R. Michael, Tina ...... ADAM: I know - just thought the ELA's tidbits of East End history might interest some posters outside the UK. Thank you for your very kind offer - I'd love to have the de Locksley article. However, as I posted elsewhere today, email & snail mail are my only options at the moment. I see from your site that Issue #2 of Ripperology (which contains the article) is sold out. Oh well ... TINA: Don't recall debating with you before - so Welcome. I stand on my posts of Feb. 4th & 5th & agree to disagree with your stance that a poisoner wouldn't cut & mutuliate. Chapman may not be JtR, but the reasons I've seen posted here against him aren't convincing ones IMHO. R. MICHAEL: You're welcome - sorry about the incomplete info earlier. Take care, Ashling
Author: Tina Gaspard Thursday, 15 April 1999 - 12:47 pm
R.M. and Ashling (Hi to you too!) I may have some reading to do...but I have done a lot so far and have never heard of a case where physically violent people such as a ripper change their MO to more passive murder such as poisoning. My arguement was not against a murderers ability to change MO, I know there are cases, but they usually stay within the same "family" of methods.
Author: Xavier Monday, 26 April 1999 - 12:14 am
Hey Folks, I'm going to Poland for 7-8 weeks this summer and I will have plenty of free time. If you have any questions or research I could do, let me know. I'll spend most of the time in Warsaw (could check out the hospital where Klosowski was working, libraries archives etc.). Maybe even I could also go visit the village where he was born. Anyway, if you want to reach me, my email is xawcio@hotma
Author: Xavier Monday, 26 April 1999 - 12:15 am
Hey Folks, I'm going to Poland for 7-8 weeks this summer and I will have plenty of free time. If you have any questions or research I could do, let me know. I'll spend most of the time in Warsaw (could check out the hospital where Klosowski was working, libraries archives etc.). Maybe even I could also go visit the village where he was born. Anyway, if you want to reach me, my email is xawcio@hotmail.co
Author: Xavier Monday, 26 April 1999 - 12:16 am
the email is actually "xawcio@hotmail.com
Author: R.M. Gordon Tuesday, 27 April 1999 - 02:04 pm
Good Afternoon Xavier, R. Michael Gordon here. I would be most interested in two documents which I hope are still available in Poland. I am looking for the death certificates of Klosowski's mother and father. Would it be possible for you to look for them while you are in Poland? I would like to include them in my new book on the Ripper. I would be willing to send you an autographed copy of the book and a mention in the book if you can find them and send me a copy. If this would interest you please contact my agent David L. Todd at 632 E. Carson Street #6, Long Beach, California 90807 USA Look forward to hearing from you. Best Wishes R. Michael Gordon.
Author: Alice Taylor Friday, 07 May 1999 - 02:51 am
I don't know about Chapman as a suspect, but I am certain that he has one thing in common with the Whitechapel Murderer. Surgical training. Only a surgeon could have performed these mutilations, especially the removal of a kidney in only a few minutes.
Author: Jon Smyth Friday, 07 May 1999 - 07:17 pm
Hello Alice Surgeon is a bit of a grand title for Klosowski (Chapman). From what I understand he was a qualified junior surgeon in Warsaw. But when employed in England he was no more than a Barbers assistant, now whether that was the equivalent of a junior surgeon in Poland, I'm not sure. But it is far from correct to assume that only a surgeon could have performed those mutilations. There was no skill to speak of and very little anatomical knowledge. I think he had some ability in both areas but only something above or more than the ordinary man in the street. He certainly did not display anything of the skill of a Doctor or Surgeon. It would take some knowledge to remove a kidney from the fatty membrane, thats for sure. But the medical evidence is not conclusive as to whether the whole membrane was removed or just opened. and the kidney taken out. Mortuary attendant, Butcher, medical student ..etc....anyone like that would have had enough knowledge. The position of the uterus and its removal may put it beyond the butcher. Regards, Jon
Author: R.M. Gordon Tuesday, 18 May 1999 - 03:32 pm
Hello everyone, R. Michael here. Peter Birchwood - Thank you for the data, when published your book will be on the way. General note: Has anyone looked at The New York Times, June 9, 1892? Her name was Mary! Best to all. R. Michael
Author: Leonard Friday, 21 May 1999 - 01:28 pm
Just finished Sudgen's Complete JTR. Apparently Sudgen reveals at the end of the book that Klosowski [Chapman] was the most probable suspect of all the suspects and gives a very good account of the man. I see that he made reference to a photo of Chapman wearing a sailor's cap [page 294] but he didn't mention something else in the photo that was very revealing. In the uper right hand corner of the photo is a picture that appears to be of Chapman. If so, this photo was taken in the Chapman home. There is nothing to refer where the photo was taken except this photo in the background. Just to the left and slightly above the photo is a bayonet. Martha Tabram received a wound to her breast bone that could have been inflicted with such a weapon and it was reported that Chapman lived in George's Yard at one time. Maybe just a coincidence, but it is interesting, never-the -less. Facts in the book [A-Z] I think, refer to the accessibility of these types of weapons but it did strike a cord seeing such a weapon in the photo above Chapman's head.
Author: Xavier Thursday, 01 July 1999 - 12:38 am
I'm leaving for Poland in just four weeks. As you know I'll spend some of my time researching the case. I need the name of the village where Klosowski was born, and maybe region (there are many villages that have same name). I hope it's not one of the eastern regions of the country because it might be Ukraine territory now (Polish borders have shifted to the west after WWII). I also need NAMES, NAMES, NAMES of his parents, wives, kids etc. because Klosowski sounds pretty popular. Email me at: xawcio@hotmail.com
Author: Cher Thursday, 15 July 1999 - 12:42 pm
I find this discussion very interesting and although I am a little late, I would like to add my 2-cents regarding Chapman's MO. What if he poisoned his wives instead of 'ripping' them because he still felt a shred of love for these women to whom he was once married?? Most serial killers don't change their MO but a select few do when it comes to someone who was involved in their lives. What do you think? Cher
Author: dclydew Monday, 02 August 1999 - 01:00 pm
I find it hard to connect Chapman to the plethora of murders which the board has recently discussed. If he was responsible for the torso killings, JTR, the NY/NJ murders and his poor poisoned wives, we no longer see a serial killer who changed his MO once but several times. 1)Leaving the torso of the victims. (Don't recall were the torso victims disemboweled??) New MO 2)Ripping specific types of victims (prostitutes) at a certian time, on the weekends. New MO 3)No longer needing to kill in quick sucession he takes out our NY/NJ victims. He goes from someone who must kill rather often to one who can apparently wait. Then again, maybe he considered himself on vacation (I hate to worlk on vacation). New MO 4) Poisoning his wives. Minor changes in MO I could easily understand. But I don't know of any serial killer who changed his MO in this way. Even if we discount the torso killings, we still must justify the quick sucession between JTR and the longish period of time after JTR and between NY/NJ/Wives. And of course with the complete change of MO with his wives. We could discount the NY/NJ stuff but then it suddenly becomes an extremely shakey argument in all. Without the American killings we have a man who lived in JTR neighborhood who eventually killed some people. `With the sheer number of people dwelling in the slums at that time this would be slim evidence at best. Of course there is something which is interesting. At least one paper was looking for a serial killer after Mary Ann died. The British Daily Whig Sept 1 - "The Time's London says a strangely horrible murder took place at White Chapel [sic] yesterday morning. The victim was woman, who, as 3 o'clock, wa knocked down by some man, unknown, and attacked with a knife. She attempted to get up, and ran a hundred yards, her cries for help being heard by several persons in the adjacent houses. No attention was paid to her cries, however, and when found at daybreak she was lying dead in another street, several hundred yards from the scene of the attack. Her head was nearly severed from her body, which was literally cut to pieces, one gash reaching from pelvis to the breast bone. This is the third murder of the kind which has been done lately. In the last one, two weeks ago, the victim was stabbed thirty nine times. In the case before, some months ago, the victim was stabbed with a stick, which was forced through the body. All three victims have been women of the lowest class. All three murders have taken place in the same district, at about the same hour, and have been characterized by the sameinhuman and ghoulish brutality. The police have concluded that the same man did all three murders, and that the most dangerous kind of lunatic is at large. The excitement is intense over the matter "
Author: anon Monday, 02 August 1999 - 01:09 pm
Anyone with any common sense would find it hard to connect Chapman with 'the plethora of murders'!
Author: dclydew Monday, 02 August 1999 - 06:34 pm
anon, Indeed. I feel that way. It just seemed odd that he's being discussed and "Very Interesting" gets added to facts associated with the torso killings and the NY/NJ killings. At that point, if we discount those, he's no better a suspect than anyone else IMHO.
Author: anon Monday, 02 August 1999 - 09:14 pm
Yes, you are right, in fact not as good as one or two.
Author: R.M. Gordon Monday, 16 August 1999 - 11:26 am
Good Morning one and all, R Michael here. Torsos Nov 1886 - Paris France - Legs, right arm, head, cut off. Removed right breast and uterus, body ripped. May 1887 - Rainham, Essex - Legs, arms head cut off. August 1888 - Whitehall Torso - Legs, arms, head cut off May 1889 - Elizabeth Jackson - Legs, arms, head cut off, torso cut up September 1889 - Pinchin Street - Legs and head cut off, torso gash - Found within site of Chapman's residence/business June 1902 - Salamanca Place - Legs, arms, head cut off, Backbone sawn in half, body parts boiled in water or roasted in oven, scalp on top of head removed and taken, feet and hands cut off and taken. Dr. Michael Taylor, coroner on Salamanca Place Torso "The murder is on all fours as the murder of Jackson of 1889" (Same killer) It is most interesting to note that these murders also coincide with Chapman's movements. It should als be noted that the Pinchin Street murder occured (dumped) across the tracks from Chapman's shop on Cable Street and the Salamanca 1902 torso murder was found dumped, or abandoned, 1200 yards down the street from Chapman's last pub in Southwark. This series also ended when he was finally captured. Just a few thoughts. By the way we expect the book to be published in November of this year. All the best to everyone. R. Michael Gordon