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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Cohen, David
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: Specific Suspects:
Later Suspects [ 1910 - Present ]:
Cohen, David:
Cohen, David
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 24 November 2000 - 12:10 pm |        | Hello Grailfinder:
What a pleasant surprise and treat to see the image of the Northampton statue of Charles Bradlaugh, M.P., right there in your post. Thanks to you and Martin for the information on this colorful character. It is always a joy to find out more about people on the periphery of the Ripper story.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Grailfinder
Friday, 24 November 2000 - 12:41 pm | | Hello Chris:
Glad to here your pleased with the pic/post on this colorful MP.
I agree with your comment about the interest that can be got from characters on the periphery of the case, They are I feel, sometimes overlooked by most people interested in Ripper lore, but I personally feel that if they played a part, they have a story, and who knows? we may just find our Jack among the lesser known members of the Whitechapel saga.
thanks again for your comments. |
Author: Simon Owen
Friday, 24 November 2000 - 03:00 pm | | Hey Grailfinder !
You want a Grail ? Well , my band of French knights and I have got one , but you can't have it ! Because your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries. Now go away , or I shall taunt you a second time !
( only joking ! ) |
Author: Grailfinder
Friday, 24 November 2000 - 04:19 pm | | To the frog and his mob:
It is a well known fact here in the UK, that the French are an ignorant, smelly breathed bunch of tossers, however I have always tried to ignore stereotypes and judge people on there personality and behavior!.
But I guess in the case of Mousier Owen the shoe fits, how old are you Simon? and do your parents know that you log onto the Net just to insult people?. This seems to be a waste of your parents money on expensive phone bills, so do us all a favour and go bury yourself.
You are a disgrace to your fellow countrymen, a case of "One bad garlic bulb spoiling the whole barrel"
(only joking ?) |
Author: Mitch
Friday, 24 November 2000 - 04:35 pm | | | It was a quote from Monty Python. Quest for the Holy Grail. See the funny now? |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 24 November 2000 - 04:36 pm | | Hello Grail:
I took Simon's little invective to be a Monty Pythonesque tirade meant in fun and nothing more. I don't think anything was meant by it. I hope this fracas will be settled and normal discourse resumed as soon as possible. 
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Simon Owen
Friday, 24 November 2000 - 04:47 pm | | | Er - shall I get my coat ? |
Author: Simon Owen
Friday, 24 November 2000 - 05:02 pm | | Grail , please forgive my irreverant sense of humour , but I did state I was only joking ! It was a quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail , as mentioned above.
No offence intended !
Simon |
Author: Grailfinder
Friday, 24 November 2000 - 06:33 pm | | Simon:
No need to apologize, I assumed your comments were an attempt at humor, "but then the french aren't really known for that are they"! (joke!)
My reply to you was supposed to be have been taken "tongue in cheek" and I am surprised that my remarks have caused you and Chris to comment on them.
Please do not think that your post has upset me in any way, I assure you my skin is thicker than that, and perhaps it would be best if we declare this "misunderstanding" to be over, no-more, deceased, it is a late posting and long may it R.I.P.
P,S
by the way, that's MR Grail to you! "niche, niche! |
Author: Simon Owen
Saturday, 25 November 2000 - 02:22 pm | | | Phew ! |
Author: Scott Nelson
Saturday, 03 February 2001 - 06:38 pm | | Hi Martin,
If you're still out there I have a couple of confusing questions. Did the police raid on Jones & Smith's brothel take place on December 7th (1888) or perhaps some days before? There is also a confusing bit in the A-Z on the entry for Ellen Hickey, the prostitute charged with assaulting N. Cohen. If this happened some days before their Dec 7th bench appearance, I can understand how charges against Hickey could be dropped as N. Cohen did not appear. But if the raid and arrests occurred on the 7th, the same day as the court appearance of Aaron Davis Cohen, who was arrested as a lunatic wandering-at-large, wouldn't Hickey have identified him (because he actually was there) and the court so corrected his name? So we have an 'N. (Nathan?) Cohen' arrested, brought before the bench as 'Aaron Davis Cohen', then later the same day turned over to the Whitechapel Infirmary as 'David Cohen'. I can understand the latter two name variations because of the court and workhouse certifications on the same day, but the brothel raid, it seems, must have occurred days previous. Do you have a chronology of this? |
Author: Martin Fido
Tuesday, 06 February 2001 - 06:57 am | | Hi Scott,
I'm still sorting a mass of Ripper files moved from England to America, and can't tell you offhand whether (a) I possess transcriptions of the court attendance records on the Hickey and Cohen appearances, and (b) whether they dated the incident. I would only say that in all 1888 magistrates' court cases I can recollect, it would seem that the hearing came the day after the incident and/or arrest. (Hence the frequent dismissal of charges of assault in domestics, where the wife or woman complainant failed to turn up and press the charge). This would certainly seem to have happened in this case, since N.Cohen didn't appear. As has occasionally been mentioned on these boards, Paul and Keith file more reliably than I, and may have the details you require.
I may be wrong - (Stewart Evans could probably correct me) - but I think by the 1880s the old Oliver Twist method of taking an offender straight from the streets to appear before a magistrate at the 'Police Office' no longer obtained. Questioning, charging, holding or bailing all happened at the Police Station and the case went before a future sitting of the courts.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Martin Fido
Wednesday, 16 May 2001 - 04:27 pm | | Just one comment on Jon's posting of Stewart Evans' pic of Church Passage in 1962. The focal depth, coupled with the camera position under or in front of the archway from Duke's Place then standing makes it all look rather clearer and more open than it actually felt. The windows on the building at the side aren't evidence of anything in 1888, as the building is obviously modern (20th century Georgian). In 1888 the Great Synagogue (the oldest in London) abutted on the Square in that position: I suspect that either a large blank building wall, or a wall enclosing the synagogue's grounds would have been where the wall with windows appears in the pic. (The Great Synagogue, the oldest in London, built in the late 17th century by Sephardic Jews for the Ashkenazim with whom they preferred not to worship, and completed before they started on the still used Sephardic synagogue in Bevis Marks, was destroyed by bombs in WWII). The large scale ordnance survey maps of the period should show how far down the Church Passage cover extended. But certainly, even as I first knew it, it was narrow and enclosed enough that a PC coming into it on a moonless night would have to go to the very end and shine his bull's-eye across the square to have any hope of seeing KE's body.
And now some new data. Accidents of publishing mean that David Cohen's full case notes have never been published. (Finding Aaron Kosminski when I was looking through the Colney Hatch Admissions Book for further Cohen data which should have gone into an appendix of 'The Crimes, Detection and Death' gave me rapid further research and rewriting to do which used up the space). So here they are:
Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary Register
Cohen David
3983
Folio Dec 7 1888
23
Where Admitted From PC 91H
Thames Police Court
Single
Tailor
Insane
Hebrew
By Whose Order Admitted Medical Officer
Time Admitted 5.30pm.
Sent to BG Ward
Date of Discharge 21/12/88 - To Colney Hatch Asylum
--------------------------------------------
Middlesex County Lunatic Asylum. Colney Hatch
Register of Admissions. Males. [vol] no.3. Folio 2
Admission no. 10,523
Name David Cohen
Date of adm. Dec. 21
Age 23
Occupation Tailor
Civil State Single
Religion Hebrew
Education R[ead] & W[rite]
Time Insane Uncertain
\Form of Disorder} Mania
Symptom of Disorder Incoherence
{Bodily State} Impaired
Remarks Died Oct 20 1889
---------------------------------------------
Middlesex County Lunatuc Asylum. Colney Hatch. Case Book. Male Side. New series, no.18. Folio 78
Registered Number of Admission 10.523
Date of Admission 21st Dec. 1888
Name David Cohen
Age 23
Parish Whitechapel Union
[overwritten insert] Ill 28 Dec. 88
Civil State Single
Occupation Tailor
Religious Persuasion Hebrew
If First Attack Yes
Previous Care and Treatment Nowhere
Duration of Existing Attack 2 weeks
Supposed Cause Unknown
Subject to Epilepsy No
Suicidal Yes
Dangerous to Others Yes
Name and Abode of Nearest Relative -
& Degree of Relationship Unknown
Facts Specified in medical Certificate upon which Opinion of Insanity is Founded
1.
Facts indicating Insanity observed by Medical Officer
Patient was brought in by police, who found him wandering at large and unable to take care of himself. Is supposed to have tried to commit suicide. He has been very violent since admission.
Threatened other patients. Refused his food for some days, but takes it now. Very noisy at night & very difficult to manage.
2.
Other facts indicating Insanity communicated to him by others
By Attendant Henry Williams - States he spits about the ward & is very violent. Tore down the leaden pipe in the ward & also the wire guard of the window. Shouts and dances about the ward when he is free.
Signed HERBERT LARDER
Whitechapel Infirmary
OBSERVATIONS
FORM OF DISORDER Mania
A young foreign Jew with dark brown hair, beard and eyes, who is brought to the Asylum in restraint, and in a state of great excitement; the first thing he did on admission was to throw himself on the ground with considerable violence, he is exceedingly restless, and refuses all nourishment; he is pale and excedingly thin.
To be fed by tube when necessary.
1888 Dec 24 Been restless since admission. Refused food 2nd day after admission and was fed through oesophagal tube twice. Takes his food now with some persuasion. Asks for liquid food and after filling his mouth will spit it out again. Dressed in strong dress and kept under constant watch.
26th Takes food better now, but still only in liquid form.
28th Kept apart from other patients as patient is restless and agitated. Incoherent and rambling. Chiefly speaks in German.
30th Not so restless. Sleeps better at night. No violence recorded.
1889 Feb 5 Since last note has had several small boils on his arms near wrists which are now cured. Continues in an excited state, but not to such a degree as before. Requires constant supervision. Destructive to clothing. Manner flighty and uncertain. Ordered 2 eggs extra each day. Speech is incoherent. gesticulates frequently. Habits dirty occasionally. Takes food well.
April 8th Restless and excited; frequently kicks passers-by; habits uncleanly and destructive, he is gaining strength.
July 7th Mischievous. Takes food well. Detsructive to clothing. Requires constant attention. Health fair.
Oct 15th Removed to C5 lately. Becoming feebler lately and unable to walk without help. Examined him. Found him to be excited but incoherent as before. T[emperature?] 108.2 evening. Left infra axillary region dull on percussion also infra mammary and infra scapular left side. Tubular breathing. Friction soound heard inferiorly and moist sounds above. Does not speak. Expectorates a mucous, purulent fluid. Cinfinsed to bed. Ordered liquid diet. Poultices not retained. Stimulating expectorant mixture ordered.
[Notes by Drs Seward and Swanton]
Oct 20 Died
"Copy"
London County Lunatic Asylum
Colney Hatch
Oct 21st 1889
Sir,
In compliance with the requirements of the Lunatics Law Amendment Act (sect.44 cap III, 25 & 26 Victoria) I beg to inform you that David Cohen aet 24 dies in this Asylum at 9.50 AM.o'clock, on Oct. 20th 1889 in the presence of Att. W.A.Wells. The cause of Death was Exhaustion of Mania and Pulmonary Phthisis, and the duration of illness was over 10 months.
I am, Sir,
Your obedient Servant,
(signed) Wm.J.Seward M.B.
Medical Superintendent
Male Department
To the Coroner for the
Central Division of the
County of London
------------------------------------
There is also an entry in something akin to a Punishments Book showing that Cohen was shifted to something like a solitary confinement wing for a period - in the spring of 1889 I think it was. But unfortunately my notes on that didn't get typed and filed with his other case notes.
Most regrettable is the absence of the Male Side Visitors' Book for the period. I'd love to see whteher there was any visitation by the Metropolitan Police following Cohen's incarceration!
With all good wishes,
Martin F |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 17 May 2001 - 04:15 am | | Hi Martin,
Thanks for that.
If there were any police visits, I'd also love to know if they took an interpreter with 'em, to find out what Cohen was rambling about in German - could have been an eye-opener, one way or t'other!
Love,
Caz |
Author: Eduardo Zinna
Thursday, 17 May 2001 - 05:20 am | | Dear Martin,
I'm grateful for this information, which I'll add to my copy of your book. May I ask your views on two points?
First, would 'strong dress' in the entry for 24 December 1888 mean a strait-jacket?
Secondly, wouldn't 'German' be in fact Yiddish?
Best,
Eduardo |
Author: Martin Fido
Thursday, 17 May 2001 - 06:41 am | | Hi Eduardo,
In both cases I think the answer is yes (assuming the strait-jacket as we know it, or something similar, had been devised by 1888). But I didn't add these deductive conclusions to the primary source where the original wording is definite, and everybody is free to reach his or her own conclusion as to whether it really means something a little different. I only added the spelling out of R[ead], W[rite] and T[emperature] in square brackets because I see, really, no doubt that those are the words the initials stood for, and there's no need for anyone to be held up by sudden mysterious initials. But we are under eagle eyes, now, and I should not wish to be accused of forcing my own interpretations of primary sources on an innocent world!
With all good wishes,
Martin F |
Author: Mark List
Thursday, 17 May 2001 - 05:24 pm | | Martin,
I read your dissertation on David Cohen on the casebook. It seems that your view is that Kosminski was mistaken for Cohen. Is there more to your theory?
You said you "stumbled" on Cohen when looking through info on Kosminski. What else lead you to Cohen? Where can I read more about it?
Cheers,
Mark |
Author: Scott Nelson
Friday, 18 May 2001 - 01:26 am | | | Hi Martin - Interesting - so Cohen had a brown beard when he was admitted to the Whitechapel Infirmary. How might this be reconciled with earlier witness descriptions of the Ripper? Or could Cohen have grown the beard while wandering around in a deranged state after the murder of MJK? And I've always wondered if he'd been released shortly after admission to the Whitechapel Infirmary, then re-admitted later. But your expanded information makes it clear that Cohen was in the infirmary ward for the duration, then sent to the asylum. This is interesting. Cohen spent about two weeks in the Infirmary before being sent to Colney Hatch on December 21st. This could be expected for a physically sick individual, who needed medical treatment that was possibly not available in the asylum. But a little over 3 weeks previously, he possibly murdered MJK in a most ferocious manner, so how could his physical condition deteriorate so quickly? If, on the other hand, he was physically fit, but psychotic, you'd think he would have been sent to the Hatch almost immediately after a diagnosis of his mental state had been rendered at the Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary. [I think Anderson's suspect may have been a very physically sick man when he was incarcerated, whether it be Cohen or someone else] |
Author: Martin Fido
Friday, 18 May 2001 - 04:24 am | | Hi Mark,
Very briefly: putting together Anderson and Macnaghten, I started a search through infirmary and, later, asylum records hunting for a Polish Jew called something like Kosminsky - (Dan Farson's transcript of Macnaghten offered variants inluding Kaminsky) - who went into an asylum in the spring of 1889 (as Macnaghten claimed). I missed Aaron Kosminski's first spell in the workhouse infirmary because the entry was so misspelled: this was, I feel, a forgivable oversight as the same entry eluded Charles Nevin later at a time when it was KNOWN to exist and he was looking inthe right place! All I found was Nathan Kaminsky, treated in Whitechapel workhouse infirmary in the spring of 1888, and thereafter disappearing from all records (including birth marriage and death). I noted all Jewish inmates who went in between November 1888 and 1890, and so had David Cohen in my notes, though disregarded, as his name and occupation were quite wrong and his incarceration date didn't match Macnaghten's claim. When I found that Kaminsky had disappeared - and certainly had not gone to any asylum under that name - I put Macnaghten's evidence on one side - (we knew he made serious mistakes about Druitt) - and using Anderson's evidence alone looked for a poor Polish Jew of any name who went into the asylum at an appropriate time. At that point Cohen leaped out as the most appropriately timed and the most dangerous and violent of all the Jewish lunatics, with the possible exception of Hyam Hyams, (though Hyams was really only dangerous to his wife). So conjecturing that Cohen, whose age matched Kaminsky's really was the same man, with the name 'Cohen' allocated as the authorities were said to do with Jews whose names they didn't know or couldn't be bothered to try and spell, I went forward with him as the Ripper. While my book was at the proof stage, the publishers invited me to use some extra pages they had as a result of a production miscalculation for an appendix. So I decided to include every record I could find about Cohen and Kaminsky, and for the first time looked at the Colney Hatch Admissions Book. I had got my details on Cohen from the Case Book which ran to 1890. The Admissions Book ran to 1894, and so I suddenly found Komsinski! Fuller details are in the second edition (any paperback, or the Barnes & Noble Hardback) of my 'The Crimes, Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper', and in my essay in Jakobowski and Braund's 'Mammoth Book of JtR'.
Hi Scott,
The last reliable witness description/s of the Ripper come from the night of the double murder, so I guessed Cohen had plenty of time to grow a beard. I was more worried that Lawende's description said the Ripper had a fair complexion and moustache. Schwartz, by contrast, described the man he saw as having a brown moustache. But as Stewart Evans has noted elsewhere, witness descriptions are likely to be unreliable in detail - or indeed, absolutely wrong. As he rightly says, I once recalled a very short, very old man as being very tall because he had an upright carriage and was standing up and so 'towering' over me when I was seated on a low settee.
The Infirmary records do not say Cohen was sick or given any medical treatment - and they would have done if he was. The Asylum records say his condition was impaired, but they don't say he was ill until 28 December. I take 'impaired' to mean undernourished and run down. And I assume that a man capable of tearing down a lead pipe and a wire window guard would have been capable of killing MJK three weeks earlier.
All the best,
Martin |
Author: Miff G
Wednesday, 20 June 2001 - 05:39 pm | | Hi
Im fairly new to this web site (actually to the web in general) so I am still catching up reading all the previous submissions, I have been reading whith sepecial interest the messages posted by Martin Fido and I am especially heartend to see sutch an esteamed and brilliant researcher like Mr Fido taking part in these pages and interacting with people who are genuinly interested in the case. I found Mr Fidos theory to be refreshing there are so many poorly thaught out and down right silly theories as to the Rippers identity that Mr Fidos pure research based theory stands out like a beacon. Im am not saying that I am 100% convinced (more like a grudging 95%) by his argument but I do beleive that the Cohen theory is probably the closest we will ever come to knowing the truth. |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Tuesday, 12 March 2002 - 06:24 pm | | Hello
It's a while since this was added to, but, reading it just now, I was reminded of a television programme I watched some time ago. I can't remember if it was on BBC or ITV or even the name, however one element of it tends to support Martin Fido's assertions as regards Cohen as an acceptable 'fit all' Jewish name.
The programme was about Jewish immigrants to Ireland which has a small community (mostly in Dublin). Not surprsingly it has shrunk in size but around the turn of the century many Jews were coming in. The immigration officials (the country being part of Great Britain at the time)were often perplexed by the Jewish names presented and anglicised them wherever there was the slightest doubt, which explained the surnames of many of the ancestors today. I believe Cohen was used a fair bit (but I'm relying on dodgy memory here).
If anyone can remember what this programme was called I would be interested to know, if for no other reason than to try and find a reference on the net to it.
Regards
Kev |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Wednesday, 13 March 2002 - 06:16 am | | Kev:
The name Cohen is a perfectly acceptable Irish name, a variant of Coen and (as you might know) Coyne. Edward MacLysaght (The Surnames of Ireland) says that it"has usually no Jewish Connotation in Ireland."
Except of course for those who believe that the Ten Lost Tribes ended their days in O'Rafferty's Pub in Wexford. |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Wednesday, 13 March 2002 - 08:24 am | | Peter
Thanks for the info. In the case of the programme I saw, immigration officials were attributing the name Cohen to incoming Jews where for example the name might have been Lebonovsky and they were unable to understand the immigrants pronounciation, language, or were just too lazy to get it right. Other names were anglicised, thus something like Ruben became Roberts (silly example). I wish I could remember the name of that programme!
My surname is probably an anglicised derivation of O'Cadhain, but Cohen and another variation which I can't even spell is another possibilty.
Regards
Kev KilCohen |
Author: maria giordano
Monday, 15 April 2002 - 07:18 pm | | David Cohen's occupation was listed a 'tailor'.
Are tailors in the habit of carrying around chalk? |
Author: Jesse Flowers
Monday, 22 April 2002 - 12:40 am | | Hello Maria-
Tailors did indeed carry chalk as part of their equipment. Moreover, as was brought out at the conference (by Andy Aliffe, I believe), tailor's chalk was thinner and more pencil-like than blackboard chalk- and thus better suited for scrawling bits of graffiti on Goulston St. doorways.
AAA88 |
Author: chris scott
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 09:26 am | | Hi
I am currently doing research on some newspaper articles and came across the following which I thought might be of interest.
From News of the World 23 September 1900
THE CASTE OF COHEN
INTERESTING ARGUMENT IN A CORONER'S COURT
A juror who was summoned to attend Hackney Coroner's Court, before Dr Wynn Westcott, declined to view the bodies in the mortuary. When asked his reason he replied: "I am a Jew, and a member of the tribe of Cohen and am not allowed to view a dead body."
The Coroner: Rabbi Golstein says it is not true. If a Cohen says he is of priestly caste and acting as such there may be some basis for the objection. You will be fined 40s. (i.e. 40 shillings = £2)
The Juror: Simply because I say I cannot view the body?
The Coroner: Your own Church says there is no claim for it.
The Juror: I am quite willing to serve; will you allow me to serve without viewing the body? I have never viewed a dead body in my life.
The Coroner: No. Supposing your wife died, would you not you view her?
The Juror: That's another thing. Will you allow me to prove it to you? I will serve another time.
The Coroner: Next Monday then.
The Juror: That is a holiday - our New Year. Will you give me another day that is not a festival? I don't wish to get out of my obligations.
The Coroner: Listen to this (reading): "The truth of the matter is that there is no tribe of Cohen and that the juryman makes use of a wrong word. He should have said caste of Cohen. A Cohen, according to the Jewish tradition, is a lineal descendant of Aaron, and the Cohanim form a separate caste within the tribe of Levi, and are forbidden by the Mosaic law to touch a corpse or to perform any duty in connection with the burial of the dead. This is strictly carried out by all orthodox Jews. The chief functions of a Cohen nowadays are to pronounce the priestly blessings in a synagogue, and to assist in the ceremony of the redemption of the First-born. He is further debarred from marrying a devorcee (sic). All Jews whose civil names are Cohen are not Cohanim, and if the Cohen in question had consulted a Rabbi he would have learned that his duty to the state takes precedence, should it some into collision with any ceremonial observances of the Jewish law."
The Juror: That proves me in the right, because I can pronounce the priestly blessing in the synagogue.
The Coroner: Very well, attend here next Monday week. |
Author: chris scott
Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 09:33 am | | Just one more atricle I thought some might like to see:
From The Weekly Dispatch 4 March 1900
MANSLAUGHTER BY A LUNATIC
At Highgate, Sub Divisional Inspector Collins, Y Division, informed the bench that at an inquest held on Saturday at Colney Hatch, by Dr Danford Thomas, a verdict of "man-slaughter" was returned against an inmate named Morris Cohen, who killed a fellow patient, Hymen Alberg.
The coroner issued his warrnat for Cohen's arrest. An application had since been made to the Home Secretary to make an order for the removal of Cohen to Broadmoor Asylum. Under these circumstances he had to report thatthe police had not executed the coroner's warrant.
The chairman said he did not think it necessary for the Bench to interfere in the matter |
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