Author: Diana
Friday, 18 October 2002 - 09:10 pm |        |
| Wasn't there a church in Whitechapel where all the ladies of the night walked in circles around it? What was it called? Where was it located? Help? |
Author: Jack Traisson
Friday, 18 October 2002 - 10:48 pm | |
Hi Diana,
St Botolph's church, Aldgate High Street, City of London.
I believe their are modern pictures of it on this site.
Cheers,
John |
Author: A.M.P.
Saturday, 19 October 2002 - 04:35 am | |
c:\my music  botolpha.jpg |
Author: Monty
Saturday, 19 October 2002 - 08:20 am | |
Hello all,
Its next to the Aldgate tube station isnt it ??
Monty
 |
Author: Diana
Saturday, 19 October 2002 - 12:42 pm | |
| Where was it in relationship to Bishopsgate police station? Mitre Square? (If you think you can see where I'm going with this, you're probably right.) Thanks for all the help. |
Author: Jack Traisson
Saturday, 19 October 2002 - 03:53 pm | |
Diana,
Bishopsgate police station was about one-quarter of a mile north of Mitre Square on Bishopsgate Street. If I remember correctly, prior to Bishopsgate police station being built in the 1860's, the police used to have a watchtower overlooking St Botolph's churchyard!
If Eddowes did go to St Botolph's after being released, she would have walked south on Bishopsgate and turned left, continuing southeast on Houndsditch, reaching St Botolph's at Aldgate High Street.
From the church to Mitre Square you can take two routes. Walk one block west on Aldgate High Street, turn right (northwest) in to Duke Street, walk up the block a bit and Church Passage is on your left. This is the likely route Jack and Kate would have travelled if they met at the church.
The other way to Mitre Square is to travel west along Aldgate High Street to Aldgate, turn right at Mitre Street (northwest), up the block a short distance on your right is Mitre Square. This is the most direct route.
http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/sitepics.html
Hi Monty,
Absolutely correct. You know your tubes. Bonus points if you know the nearest train station.
Cheers,
John |
Author: Diana
Saturday, 19 October 2002 - 09:19 pm | |
| What would you say the time frame would be? How long to walk from BPS to SBC? How long to walk from SBC to MS? Or more specifically the spot where they were seen by Lawende (Duke Street and Church Passage)? Here's another one -- How long to walk from the Stride crime scene to St. Botolph's? |
Author: Jack Traisson
Sunday, 20 October 2002 - 03:04 am | |
Hi Diana,
It's a question mostly of how fast a person walks. I will give you a few rough times.
Dutfield's Yard to St Botolph's in about 15 minutes using the main roads. You can defintely do it a little faster or a lot slower.
St Botolph's to Church passage is perhaps 100 yards. I can walk it in one minute. But when you are with someone you tend to walk more slowly, you stroll. So let's say two or three minutes.
From Bishopsgate police station to St Botolph's is about ten minutes.
If you are wondering about timing on the night of the double event, many Ripper books discuss this issue.
Cheers,
John |
Author: Caroline Morris
Sunday, 20 October 2002 - 08:16 am | |
'Within the quarter of the hour I found another dirty bitch willing to sell her wares...'
Did the person who wrote this time himself walking from Dutfield's Yard to St Botolph's (or Church Passage), or did he read it in a ripper book, or did he make an educated guess from the time lapse between the discovery of the bodies?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Jack Traisson
Monday, 21 October 2002 - 04:29 am | |
Hi Caz,
I don't follow the discussions about the diary -- though I have read it -- so I don't know what are the suspected Ripper books used in it's construction.
I am certain Rumbelow brings up the time issue, I am not certain about Fido and Begg, however. The writer of the passage you quoted I would say read it in a Ripper book. I don't believe it was an educated guess because it's something you wouldn't want to get wrong. If it took longer than 15 minutes to walk from Berner Street to Aldgate then the diary writer would indeed lose more credibility. As is the case with Stephen Knight. Although familiar with the streets of the East End, he believed there was a timing problem on the night of the double event, and that the killers riding around in a carriage solved this problem. Ivor Edwards (the master of the stopwatch) believes that Jack had an excess of time that night and stopped off in his bolthole before picking up Eddowes. I haven't looked at his book (the self-published one) in over a year, so I am sure he will correct me if I haven't remembered exactly what he wrote. I believe there is no timing problem
Personally, I think Jack arrived at St. Botolph's around 1:15, cruised the area for another victim, checked out the police and pedestrian presence, decided on a plan, and eventually made contact with Eddowes between 1:25-1:30. The couple ended up at the entrance of Church passage shortly after this, and entered the square shortly after being passed by Lawende, Levy, and Harris.
Cheers,
John |
Author: Monty
Monday, 21 October 2002 - 11:34 am | |
John/Jack/John and Diana,
Liverpool street I'd say.
Ive walked from Bishopsgate to the square and it took me (at a leisurely pace) around 8-10 mins.
I'd say it was a bit less than 15 mins from Dutfields Yard to Mitre square. I did it in 10 again but this time I walked briskly as I assumed the killer may have done. But as John has pointed out, it all depends on peoples walking pace, height, ect.
Over all I think Johns idea on the accosting of Kate is as I would have imagined it. He took the 5 mins just to see the lay of the land.
Monty
|
Author: Chris Jd
Monday, 21 October 2002 - 12:28 pm | |
Hi Monty et al.
The problem with measuring times around St. Botolph / Mitre Square is that there is a huge mess of pedestrian subways now.
So walking the "old" routes you get killed by traffic, walking down the subway you get lost searching for the right exit.
Christian |
Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Monday, 21 October 2002 - 06:26 pm | |
If someone back at that time was hoping to find a prostitute, either for fun or murder, would they be reasonably sure to encounter a prostitute within a few moments' time in Mitre Square? The newspaper accounts portrayed it as totally deserted most nights. I'm curious if anyone ever found out what the prostitute traffic really was like around square.
Off subject, please set me straight on something simple....what is the correct pronunciation of "Mitre"? I've always used the long vowel "i" but it could easily be the short vowel, I guess. |
Author: Jack Traisson
Tuesday, 22 October 2002 - 02:25 am | |
Brenda,
There's no easy answer as to how long it would have taken Jack (or anybody in 1888) to find a prostitute. It had been raining that night, which perhaps would have forced some working girls indoors. Women on the game in 1888 had to keep moving or they would be charged. They simply could not stand on a corner until a customer came along. You would have had an undetermined number of women walking around St. Botolph's and the Aldgate area, and an undertermined number of clients cruising the neighbourhood seeking their services.
Mitre is pronounced with an "eye" sound.
Hi Monty,
Fenchurch Street Station is the closest train. Thanks for playing. You just missed out on the grand prize of an all inclusive trip to the JtR convention in Liverpool! But you do win the consolation prize -- a packet of crisps :-)
Question: Didn't you once time yourself from Mitre Square to Goulston Street? I apologise if I am confusing you with someone else on the board.
Hi Christian,
Your point is well taken about using exact times when going over the area now. But general times for the main routes discussed above still apply. As for St Botolph's to Church Passage, because they are so close it would have only taken about a minute to walk it in 1888.
In answer to one of your email questions. I was born in Germany (British Military Hospital, Iserlohn), son of a military man. So I have lived many places, which may help to explain my usage of URL's.
Cheers,
John |
Author: Chris Jd
Tuesday, 22 October 2002 - 07:00 am | |
Hi John,
thanks for answering my question(s).
My comment about the subways was half jokefully, because I indeed spent quite a time down there looking for the right exit ( there are about 21 of them, aren't they?)
No sign of "The Plank" yet. But I'll let you know as promised.
best wishes
Christian |
Author: Diana
Tuesday, 22 October 2002 - 10:10 pm | |
| Schwartz describes him wearing a dark jacket and trousers. Lawende describes him wearing a salt-and-pepper coat. This means: A. One of them was wrong. B. Jack went home on his way to St. Botolph's and changed -- probably because of blood. C. The salt-and-pepper coat was a little heavy on the pepper. |
Author: Diana
Tuesday, 22 October 2002 - 10:21 pm | |
| Diemschutz found Stride at 1:00. Lawende saw Eddowes at the corner of Duke St. and Church Passage at 1:35. If a brisk walk of 10 minutes gets you from Dutfield's to St. Botolph's we have 25 minutes unaccounted for. |
Author: Jack Traisson
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 04:10 am | |
Hi Diana,
Don't forget the other option: two different murderers.
Also, the gap really isn't 25 minutes because that works unders the assumption that Jack and Kate met seconds before they were seen. It also assumes Jack set out for St. Botolph's at a quick pace using the main routes. If you are suggesting he stopped off someplace to change, one has to ask why? He probably didn't have any blood on him after killing Stride. It also assumes that he has a room between Berner Street and Aldgate. Because if his room is north of Whitechapel Road/High Street, he doesn't have enough time to stop off before going back out.
If Jack was responsible for killing Stride, perhaps he was on his way home -- wherever that was -- and decided he wasn't finished for the night. If this is the scenario then we have no idea what time he reached the Aldgate area. If both Kate and Jack were somewhere around St Botolph's at 1:10am, and together, then it seems inconceivable that no one sees them before Lawende at about 1:34am.
I personally don't think there is a timing problem (as I proposed in a previous post) but if you have a theory for what the Ripper was up to between 1:00-1:34am, I'm all ears.
Cheers,
John |
Author: ALAN SMITH
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 05:21 am | |
Jack (Or anyone),
You mention the JTR convention in Liverpool. Is this open to all, or is it by invitation.
If the former where can I find details?
Thank you
Alan |
Author: Monty
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 12:28 pm | |
Jack, Diana, Chris,
Fenchurch st !!!! Of Course !!!!!
I dont go that far south and west. Its full of toffs !!
I did indeed time myself going to Goulston st. I took the direct route. It took a few minutes, under 5 I think, my notebook is at work and shall be checked when I return there.
Diana,
I have misled you, in my old book, which is in my briefcase for some reason, the timing for the yard to the square was infact 12 mins 48 secs done at 12:48am.
Chris,
You should try crossing at 1.00am. A lot better.
Monty
|
Author: Timsta
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 01:31 pm | |
Jack:
"It also assumes that he has a room between Berner Street and Aldgate. Because if his room is north of Whitechapel Road/High Street, he doesn't have enough time to stop off before going back out."
This possibility keeps nagging at me. Either a residence or a workplace that he has after-hours access to (tying in with the weekends/holidays timings). As regular readers will know, I am very interested in discovering what buildings lay in the block bounded by Leman St/Gt Alie St/Mansell St/Whitechapel High St. This area was probably *not* included in the house-to-house searches, yet is just as close to the putative "comfort zone" as other locations that have been proposed. And unlike most of the area at the time, seems to have comprised entirely commercial premises.
Anyone got a Kelly's, or live near the Guildhall Library and have a couple of hours to spare?
Regards
Timsta |
Author: judith stock
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 03:10 pm | |
Dear Alan,
The Ripper conferences are open to all with the dosh! You can check in the RIPPEROLOGIST, or keep watching the boards for more information. Come along, Alan; they are loads of fun, and you meet the nicest people!!
Cheers,
Judy Stock |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 04:07 pm | |
Hi, Alan!
Aye, come ye down from Glasgow, Alan, not far for you to come. We look forward to seeing you there. 
I enjoyed my first UK Ripper convention last year and cannot miss the next one, it being held in my city of birth, Liverpool, though I now live in the United States. As was the Bournemouth event, the Liverpool convention promises to be memorable.
All the best
Chris |
Author: ALAN SMITH
Friday, 25 October 2002 - 05:08 am | |
Judith,
Thank you for the info, and now just for Chris's sake I'll revert to stereotype.
Dosh? Did ye say dosh? Oh well, er I'll have to think about it. Bawbees dinna grow on trees ye ken. Is there a braw Salvation Army hostel aboot.
Seriously, I'm looking forward to it already.
Regards
Groundskeeper Willie |
Author: judith stock
Friday, 25 October 2002 - 12:00 pm | |
Oh, aye, there be a hostel aboot, but ye'd miss the time i' the local wi' yer maytes! (Have I just had a Scot wi' a Cockney edge?) Oh, well, Brian...you get the drift.They conferences are great fun; you meet scads of new people, and put faces to the names you have seen on these boards. The sessions are interesting, but the most fun is had during breaks and pub time.....true, CG?
By the way, Brian, get in touch with Ross Strachan and get his bum down to Liverpool, too! He's just over in Galston.
Cheers,
J |
Author: Diana
Friday, 25 October 2002 - 07:52 pm | |
1:00 to 1:35 = 35 minutes
Approx. 7 minutes to change and wash up.
Approx 10 minutes to stand at St. Botolph's picking a victim and negotiating with her.
Approx. 3 minutes from St. Botolph's to entrance of Church Passage. Total is 20. 35-20=15. 15 minutes left for travel time. This is only about three to five minutes longer than a direct route from Dutfield's to Church Passage. Witness descriptions by Schwartz and Lawende were almost identical except he went from a dark jacket to a salt and pepper coat and added a red kerchief at the neck. Ergo he stopped and changed. Lodgings were very close to that route between Berner Street and Mitre Square. I leaned to Stride being a genuine victim once I realized how close Schwartz and Lawende's descriptions were. |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 08:07 am | |
Judith,
I'm afraid your reply to Alan was very nearly Dick van Dyke-esque !!
Jimmy
Brigadoon |
Author: judith stock
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 10:20 am | |
Dear Jim,
You are so RIGHT, and I apologise profusely!!!
Cheers,
J |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 04:55 pm | |
Dear Judith,
When a lady tells me I'm so right and apologises, I become deeply worried, as my downfall is probably imminent.
However, I shouldn't have commented, as I'm one of the few people in history, who's impression of Jimmy Cagney sounded like Ethel Merman.
Best Regards
Jim |
Author: ALAN SMITH
Monday, 28 October 2002 - 04:36 am | |
Judith,
If you stop calling me Brian, I might even buy you a wee dram.
Alan |
Author: judith stock
Monday, 28 October 2002 - 01:23 pm | |
Dear ALAN and Jim,
I PROMISE YOU, ALAN...NEVER AGAIN. Obviously I have begun to lose what little is left of my mind.
And, Jim, do NOT worry; I NEVER mind apologising if I screw up!! Doom is NOT imminent!
All is well; you both are safe, ALAN and Jim.
Cheers,
J |
