London Underground

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London Underground

Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: Miscellaneous: London Underground

Author: Graham Jay Friday, 30 August 2002 - 07:09 pm
Hi, Does anyone know the frequency of which trains on the Hammersmith & City line would have been running in 1888, and at what hours the line was closed? It seems to me that, even back then, there were enough portions of the underground network that had fallen into disuse that they would have made an ideal bolthole, escape route, or even changing room for the Ripper. For example, Tower of London station on the Metropolitan line was only open from 1882 to 1884. So lets run this up the flagpole and see if the cat want to lick it - JTR has his fun, and dives into the nearest station. Let's face it, Bucks Row/Durward St is right next to Whitechapel station! He works his way down a tunnel that is closed for the night until he gets to, say, Tower of London station where he has previously stashed some clothes and where he can hide any bloody knives he may have on him. But, I hear you cry, how would he find the way? Easy, if he was or had been a train driver, or member of station staff for just a few years. He then emerges fresh as a daisy and clean as a whistle. From this area, there was even a convenient foot tunnel under the Thames. The Tower Subway, being the world's first underground railway, ran cable driven trains under the Thames for a few months in 1870, and then was used as a foot tunnel until 1894 when Tower Bridge was built. This would have been perfect for someone wanting to make a quick bolt for South London (eh, Mr Druitt?) It would also make a perfect hiding place for a little while while he was deciding where to drop a certain apron, and composing some graffiti. Just a thought, and one I expect has been thought many times before - can anyone shoot it down in flames?
Author: Michael Raney Saturday, 31 August 2002 - 01:12 am
Haven't A & S Parlour posted on some underground stuff before? Maybe they could enter this discussion and enlighten us?
Author: Peter J. C. Tabord Wednesday, 04 September 2002 - 07:18 am
Hi Graham Most of the modern Underground hadn't been built by 1888, only the 'cut and cover' (not proper deep level tunnels) of the Metropolitan and District railways. I can check dates, but I think the station you quote would be the only one that had closed completely by the critical time. There were 'original' stations at Liverpool St. and Faringdon St. that closed in 1875 and 1865 respectively, but they would have been built over in creating the new stations and I don't know if there would have been any remains 'useful' for this purpose. However, if he knew the railways (including the 'overground' ones - the main one in the area being the Great Eastern) by 1888 there would have been all sorts of little boltholes that could be used at night - refuge holes in tunnels, machinery rooms under signalboxes, etc. etc. But like policeman's beats local knowledge or research would be needed to know which areas were 'safe' at particular times. Regards Pete
Author: Jim Leen Wednesday, 04 September 2002 - 11:42 am
Hello Everybody, Underground railways are a facinating thing. About a year ago I was led around some disused lines in the fair green place. I was fairly astonished,, I may add, Glasgow only having around 18 stations on its subway network, to find that there was literally miles of "secret" lines. I dare say the vast expanse of London Underground would have far more hidden tunnels. You could be on the right track, groan, there Graham. Thanking you. James Leen
Author: Peter J. C. Tabord Thursday, 05 September 2002 - 05:35 am
Hi All The actual underground lines in London and Glasgow weren't built in 1888 - they were still in the future. This is important because it is the method used to build these lines (the Greathead Shield) that results in many of the unused tunnels and blind headings. Although we now include the Metropolitan and District lines and their constituents in the "Underground", they were built as conventional lines and consist of normal hand cut tunnels and sections that were roofed in - a process that continues to the present day. That is not to say the railway premises would not have offered many places to hide. They would, and if JTR was either a railway worker or had regular business on railway premises he might well have become aware of some of them. They would not, however, be likely to be totally disused tunnels. Similarly, there were very few disused stations in 1888. But, interestingly, the original post mentioned the Tower of London station. This unusually was replaced by another station on a different site in 1884. This station in turn was replaced by the current Tower Hill station, which dates only from the 60's, back on the original site. This site would have been reasonably convenient, especially if he gained access to the tracks in the Whitechapel area and walked along to it. Unfortunately, I have no idea what would have been on the site in 1888, although usually the "railway" sides of closed stations on open lines - platforms, waiting rooms etc - were left alone unless the area was required for some other purpose. Often closed stations would be put to other uses, such as stores or workshops. The 'middle period' Tower Hill station is so used today (or at least until recently), and you can see it if you look out of the window going westbound from today's Tower Hill. Cheers Pete
Author: Graham Jay Thursday, 05 September 2002 - 09:44 am
I'm led to believe that the Tower of London station which closed in 1884 still exists in some form today, as do many of the stations closed over the last 140 years or so, which would imply that it is underground rather than at ground level. I'm still trying to track down some details as to what the station would have looked like but as yet without any luck. Another thought that occurred to me is whether JTR could have been in some way related to the building trade. There was at least one major building work at the time, ie Leadenhall Market, and while this wasn't opened until 1890 (from memory)the site would certainly have been in development in 1888. Perhaps he was associated with the demolition of the existing buildings? Leadenhall Market is after all only a couple of minutes walk from Mitre Square and a building site might provide some good hiding places. Such work might easily attract itinerant workers, and perhaps the end of his employment in the project would tally with the end of the murders. Now all we have to look for is an itinerant train driving builder.
Author: Peter J. C. Tabord Thursday, 05 September 2002 - 11:16 am
Hi Graham Tower of London station is now Tower Hill station, so none of the 1884 station exists. It could however have stood derelict from 1884 to ca. 1968 (I'm not sure when the new station was built to the year, but as a child I used both the old and the new ones, so it must have been moved back about then - I can check the date if it is important to you). Tower Hill/Tower of London station is only just below the modern surface - it may indeed have been a surface station in 1884, subsequently roofed over. Aldgate, the next station east - which, incidentally, features in a Sherlock Holmes story - was roofed over (except for its historic glass roof in the centre part of the platforms) as recently as the 1980's. The reason for this roofing in is that then the land above can be used for office buildings and the like. Baker Street station has its original platforms restored to show what a covered sub-surface station would have looked like in the 1860's - they would not have changed much by 1888. If Tower of London was an uncovered station it would have looked much like many other examples in the immediate area that still exist and are open for business - e.g. Barbican, Shoreditch or Whitechapel low-level. You should be able to find photos of some or all of these stations on the web, along with many accounts of deep-level stations built after 1888 and closed in the 20th century (and still there). Cheers Pete
Author: Graham Jay Thursday, 05 September 2002 - 11:35 am
Thanks for that Peter - as far as I know Tower Hill opened in early 1967 to replace Mark Lane station which closed on 4/2/67. Are you sure that there were no deep level stations before 1888? I only ask because I was looking at something about St Marys station (which was located between Aldgate East and Whitechapel stations), which was built in 1884 but was used as an air raid shelter during the war. I'm sure that something of Tower of London station remains, although how much of it I have no idea, and of course it could well be incorporated into Tower Hill. I keep seeing it referred to as a "ghost station", ie disused but still there, like St Marys, British Museum,etc. Not that that matters of course, because as you rightly point out it was there derelict until the 1960s. I was thinking more of a plan of the tunnels rather than a picture of the station itself, to see how easy it would be to get there from Whitechapel, and whether you could access the Tower Subway easily. I'm not saying it's likely JTR used these tunnels, but they're obviously a possibility and, to someone who knew their way around them, it would be ideal especially if you wanted to throw any pursuers off your trail
Author: Peter J. C. Tabord Thursday, 05 September 2002 - 12:27 pm
Hi Graham St Mary's is one of the 'covered' stations - i.e. it was built by excavating a hole, building the station, and roofing or covering it over. I don't know exactly how far it is below the surface, but it won't be more than a few feet. Some air raid shelters were more effective than others! The first deep level tube was the City and South London in 1890. As far as the tunnels are concerned, it would be a straightforward walk from Whitechapel or Aldgate East to Tower of London - you'd just have to turn left by Aldgate. Points against - there would be staff on duty and trains all through the night in those days - freight and maintenance trains in the short period with no passenger service. Points for - the trains would have been steam, fairly slow and with poor lights, so visibility in the tunnels would be pretty awful. Also, these older tunnels were frequently built with refuges to hide in should a train come along unexpectedly. The deep level tubes don't have these, and so always have to shut down totally at night for maintenance, as is now done on the older lines too. I don't think there is a link to the foot tunnel, but at St Mary's (or by going from one part of Whitechapel station to another) you could get into tunnels leading under the Thames. This would be a much longer walk. I wasn't trying to disillusion you, just trying to adjust your mental picture a bit. I mean, there's no evidence JTR was a lunatic train driver, but hey, why not? Might make a good film. Regards Pete
Author: Graham Jay Thursday, 05 September 2002 - 03:08 pm
Pete, Thanks for the information, it's a great help. Particularly about the refuges. I expected there to be nooks and crannies that someone could hide in, but it's good to know that some of them were purpose built. Interesting that there would be freight trains etc running all through the night - it would mean that people had legitimate business underground, so even someone entering the stations in the wee small hours wouldn't be considered unusual if spotted. Cut and cover - now that obviously applies to the stations themselves, would I right in assuming that the tracks themselves would have been built similarly? I'm just wondering if they would have been built well enough not to allow people to break through. I can't imagine it's likely, just a thought. Lunatic train driver, hmmm... for some reason, when I read that I got a mental image of Dick Dastardly which I just can't shake off!
Author: Graham Jay Friday, 06 September 2002 - 05:03 am
I've just found out that Tower of London station existed intact from it's closure in 1884 until World War II when it was demolished.
Author: Peter J. C. Tabord Monday, 09 September 2002 - 09:21 am
Hi Graham There were both cut and cover sections, usually where a road could be followed like the long stretch under the Euston Road, and ordinary tunnels as on the conventional railways of the day. Freight trains ran in some quantity through the night - there was/is a huge complex of tunnels under Smithfield market that the meat used to arrive at by train during the night for sale in the early morning. The system extends almost as far as Bart's Hospital. Now that would have been an excellent area for a deranged medical student/horse butcher/train driver to operate in!

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