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JtR and lack of sexual contact with the victims.
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: Miscellaneous:
JtR and lack of sexual contact with the victims.
Author: Diana
Saturday, 10 August 2002 - 10:26 pm |        | | Ivor -- what do you think the motive was? Ritual occult? |
Author: Garry Wroe
Sunday, 11 August 2002 - 12:00 am | | Hello Ivor.
I couldn't agree more. There is no such thing as an infallible human being. The point I was making was simply that I couldn't and cannot accept the word of a single psychiatrist as being definitive as regards the Ripper's offence motivation, especially since the evidence to the contrary is, in my view, overwhelming. But if we must disagree, I hope that we may do so without ill-feeling.
Best wishes,
Garry Wroe. |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Sunday, 11 August 2002 - 05:20 am | | Hiya Ivor, how are you
I notice you didn't mention Tabram, was any seminal fluid found in or on Martha Tabrams body?
of course this could have been mentioned before, if so I missed it, and thinking on, seeing that she was last seen with a soldier, I suppose thats enough said.
Rick |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 11 August 2002 - 11:41 am | | I am of the opinion that in order to accuse Jack of committing these (3,4,5?) murders for some as-yet unknown sexual gratification you must feel Jack had an appreciable amount of time with his victims.
On the contrary, these attacks were sudden and were over within 3-5 minutes, in most cases.
Sexual serial killers quite often kidnap their victims, take them to a secluded spot and torture them before finally killing them off. Whether they need to take them away from the public eye or simply find an abandoned or desolate spot nearby is immaterial, the point is they need an undetermined amount of time to appreciate their misguided pursuit.
Jack had no such luxury, these murders were committed on the centre stage, so to speak, and the killer had no time to 'enjoy' any presumed sexual gratification, even though empty premises or secluded places were often nearby.
As Ivor has patiently tried to point out there is absolutely no evidence beyond assumption that there was any sexual intent in these cases.
However, I might add, we cannot say the same for Martha Tabram or Emma Smith.
The murders of Coles, McKenzie & Stride (& Mylett?) were simple knife attacks with no known motive.
The murders of Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes, however, bear obvious signs of systematic & methodical, almost to the point of ritual, procedure in removing the life of these victims.
Ivor obviously has a motive in mind in some of these killings, I on the other hand, have no idea of a motive except to say that the killer had every intent on removing certain organs for some unknown reason.
The procedure he used was professional and bore signs of a learned skill in removing life efficiently. Not every citizen is capable of such a degree of professionalism. The killer was aware of his surroundings, was in control and determined in his activity, no signs of frenzy, no evidence of random slashing akin to some 'lunatic' hypothesis and every sign of a deliberate hand at work.
And, more to the point, absolutely no evidence of sexual gratification in any way whatsoever.
Regards, Jon |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Sunday, 11 August 2002 - 01:20 pm | | Hi Diana, Yes I do believe the motive was ritual occult.I mention here just several reasons from many I have for concluding so.I took compass readings in the field and the first four victims were found East, North, South,and West in that order. In the occult sacrifices are to be found located at the four points of the compass.Two of the victims had their uteri taken. In the occult two uteri are used for the manufacture of two holy candles which in turn are used in a black magic ritual.Mutilation of the dead is also prescribed in the occult.Prostitutes are also mentioned in certain aspects of occult rituals.Symbols were found cut into the face of one ripper victim and ritual activity was in evidence in the series.
Hi Rick,
I am fine thanks as I hope you are.I can only show Nichols,Chapman,Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly to be ripper victims. Tabram and Smith etc as far as I am concerned were not victims of the ripper.
Hi Garry, If we do disagree on any points then we do so in complete harmony. In fact I would go so far as to state that I find it a pleasure to disagree with you. :-) |
Author: Garry Wroe
Sunday, 11 August 2002 - 01:29 pm | | Hello All.
In his book Crime and the Sexual Psychopath (1950) Dr J Paul de River observed
The lust murderer, usually after killing his victim, tortures, cuts, maims or slashes the victim in the regions on or about the genitalia, rectum, breast in the female, and about the neck, throat and buttocks, as usually these parts contain sexual significance to him and serve as sexual stimulus.
As I have said many times previously, it has long been understood that Ripper-type behaviour is sexual in its motivation. And for those who can not or will not acknowledge this to be the case, fine. But it is true all the same.
Regards,
Garry Wroe. |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 11 August 2002 - 02:02 pm | | Thankyou Garry.
Stabbing the knife into the pubic area once, maybe twice, then drawing the knife upward(?) to the breastbone region was duplicating the contemporary surgical procedure in the 19th century for accessing the abdomen for a hysterectomy.
Surgical notes of the period testify to that fact, it was not unusual to leave such a huge cut for operating. It would seem barbaric to us today.
The killers uncertainty as to the placement of the knife, it being dark, maybe the reason for the 'apparent' stabbing of the pubes. It was neither extensive nor frenzied.
As you are aware.....no 'post-mortem' stabs in the breasts, buttocks, rectum, throat, etc, in any of the three (Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes) cases were observed. Therefore you must aknowledge a distinct difference between the 'general' (tarbrush) description that you offer and the specific murders we are interested in.
Thanks, Jon |
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 11 August 2002 - 02:45 pm | | I'm pretty sure this killer didn't have intercourse with the victims , he was a sexual sadist but his knifework replaced the desire for penetration.
I was thinking about the Chapman killer and the fact that her head was almost severed , the killer probably was in a frenzied state when he did this I reckon. I don't think he intended to take the head as a trophy but rather he just cut in very deep , maybe because Annie struggled with him and her resistance made him angry.
However my opinion is that the killer must have been pretty lucid and aware when performing his murders , he got some sort of thrill from the killing but that wasn't his primary motivation. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Sunday, 11 August 2002 - 04:39 pm | | Simon,
In the case of Chapman certain items were placed in a careful and deliberate fashion indicating that the killer did not work in a frenzied state.Such surgical work needs concentration and careful deliberation.I agree with you that the killer may well have got some pleasure from the murders but that is not why he committed them. I do believe he got a big kick from the chase so to speak.He played a game with the police and the reason he did so was of a personal nature.
Gary,
My advice to Dr Paul de River and yourself would be dont compare all such killings as the same. Each case should be studied on its own merits. While one case may have something in common with another it does not mean to say that they share the same motive. I can give Dr Paul de River cases of murders he has described but none of them were committed by a murderer motivated by lust as he so states.Ex-Inspector, Harry Cox, City of London Police stated 15 years after the murders ( Thomson's Weekly News ) that the crimes were not motivated by a lust for blood or revenge.He also stated,"a fact which, of course could scarcely be grasped at the time of the murders,and which up till the present time has been pointed out by none is that the mysterious killer had a carefully - thought out system under which he carried out the outrages". Cox went on to dispel any theory that the killer was known to the police, or that he was a patient in an asylum, or that he committed suicide by drowning. He stated the murder of Nichols was done in a quiet and methodical manner and the killer had certain anatomical knowledge. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Sunday, 11 August 2002 - 08:30 pm | | | Simon, The cut into the throat which was very deep was atributed to the strength shown by the killer and not due to any desire to decapitate the victim.It was the opinion of the police that the killer was a man of strength and determination. They believed he would endeavour to make short work of them if they disturbed him on the job. |
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