Author: lucky pierre
Thursday, 13 June 2002 - 06:19 pm |        |
I return to the casebook after a few months of absence with one question still unanswered:
Was it more than just serial murder? Was there a method to the "madness?" I support the conjecture of Ivor Edwards and others that some "mystery" revolves around the murder odyssey...the question is what?
If the killer was "communicating" with the murders themselves (location, marks on bodies, etc.), then is it conceivable that the authorities were "communicating" with the killer in some way? Not just in the newspapers but by distorting the facts in the crime scenes themselves? Obviously, as is done today, not all facts of a murder scene are disclosed publicly...the authorities choose what to disclose for their own purposes. If the police were being taunted (as many here at the casebook claim), then why wouldn't the police taunt Jack back? We're dealing with "normal modes" of police behavior here...they NEEDED to convey that Jack wasn't in control as much as he thought he was. Any thoughts anyone on this subject? |
Author: Howard Brown
Saturday, 15 June 2002 - 08:12 pm | |
| Dear Lucky....Perhaps because there was no precedent to use as reference,the police didn't taunt him......"normal modes" of police behavior may not have been fully developed( profilers,forensics,psychologists,etc).Isn't JtR the first serial killer to send letters to the Press? Maybe you know,Pierre...Obviously,in the USA,there have been a couple of cases( Unabomber and Zodiac,are two I know of.),but I don't remember one before JtR....Also,did the London papers all carry the same details of each crime? there were probably more newspapers in London then than now...each periodical may have scrambled to embellish facts simply to scoop/outsell their competitors.....If they were using the letters to base their taunts,then there is the argument as to whether JtR ever even wrote to the Press..Sure seems like there was a motive beyond just killing these women( the uterus removal..) to me. Thats why the Kelly murder,to me is just so over the top( He could have easily just taken the uterus and split..why all that insane mutilation?...really risky..). Good question,Lucky.......Yours,HB |
Author: lucky pierre
Sunday, 16 June 2002 - 01:53 pm | |
| Howard: I dispute the letters to the press as well...but surely the very brazen nature of the crimes themselves suggest someone who was "toying" with the authorities. I think he was "communicating" SOMETHING with the murders and the chosen locations...it doesn't appear as random as it may seem. He knows the authorities are out there IN FORCE trying to catch him and he continues on his merry way nonetheless. I dispute the "serial killer profiling" techniques as well. If this was a game or "ritual" that he was engaging in, then these "lust murder" scenarios DO NOT pan out. As I stated a few months ago, perhaps the victims WERE NOT randomly chosen. Perhaps it was a multi-level plan of attack: A. distinctive individuals chosen for one purpose; B. manner (degree or extent) of mutilations done for another REASON; C. locations chosen for another purpose entirely different from A or B. Include the dates and time between the attacks as having their own distinctive significance as well. Mary Jane Kelly was the CLIMAX of this frenzy but what was she REPRESENTING? Just because JTR hit his peak on November 9 in no way means he was finished with this GAME or RITUAL! If I am right, this was not performed by someone with merely a grammar school education...someone WELL EDUCATED whose schooling was intense and serious. Include a particular kind of madness (psychosis) along with this brilliance. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Sunday, 16 June 2002 - 06:46 pm | |
Dear Pierre,
Since the locational juxtapositioning of the victims has been commented on over the last century...the police -plotting on their OS maps-would have detected both sequence and precision.
However, for reasons to be ascertained, they chose to keep the information to themselves. Is this what you refer to as areas of public non-disclosure?
Rosey :-) |
Author: lucky pierre
Sunday, 16 June 2002 - 08:03 pm | |
| Typically, ALL information related to a murder is not disclosed publicly. The major reason for doing this is the number of "kooks" who offer to take responsibility for the offense. It gives the authorities a chance to disseminate fraudulent leads from actual leads as well. It had to be on someone's mind back then (who possessed the actual crime facts) to send JTR their own personal message. EXAMPLE: a string of burglaries occurs in greater London in 1888. The culprit leaves cryptic notes behind stating the general incompetence of the police to catch such a "sly" fellow. I refuse NOT to believe that someone (or all) in the police WOULD BE communicating something back to the culprit...even if that took the form of "street talk" with the flippant, "This burglar is different...he's unnecssarily sloppy at his work but has fine penmenship." Don't fool yourself otherwise! I believe that the crime scenes were compromised...possibly even the movement of a corpse to a different location by the authorities in charge to disrupt JTR's message and send ONE of their own. It ain't that far-fetched! |
Author: Howard Brown
Sunday, 16 June 2002 - 08:28 pm | |
| You gotta good point,Pierre....nothing in this case is far-fetched....To my mind,the most troubling aspect of the actual killings is the enormous risks this guy took....Today,killers commit their acts indoors,in autos,almost always inside. JtR is like the serial killer,Randy Kraft,(a story on him is available at Crime Library.com),who ritualistically displayed his victims. However,his deeds were done elsewhere....If its a fact that JtR laid out one of the victims belongings in a neat fashion,then this guy had incredible cojones on him...Wasn't East London the largest neighborhood in the largest city in the world in 1888? Later amigo |
Author: lucky pierre
Sunday, 16 June 2002 - 08:49 pm | |
| My argument in this thread continues to be that IF they (the authorities) could rattle JtR in any manner possible, then do it! Disrupt JtR's message (whatever it was/may be) and send him one of their own...disrupt the modus operandi of this methodical maniac! If we can't catch the killer, destroy the message (or messenger). If there was a METHOD/GAME/RITUAL to these events, level the playing field! JtR got away with murder...but make sure he doesn't win the GAME. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 12:37 am | |
Lucky & Howard,
No one to date has ever proven that the killer wrote any taunting letters to the police.It has never been proven that the Lusk kidney was taken from Eddowes.And it is possible that the police used a few tricks we dont know about to catch him.Howard has made a very valid point about the risks the killer took when to all intents and purposes he need never have taken them.Look at Mitre Square for one such example where he spent about 3-4 minutes. From 1.30am until 1.45am the square was checked 3 times.A serving policeman lived in the square and was at home at the time of the murder.The night watchman on duty at the square was an ex-policeman. Yet such facts did not deter the killer. If someone wished me to commit a crime in such circumstances without checking the beat times I would tell them to sod off and do it themselves.In crime you dont make things more differcult for yourself when you dont have to. For some reason Eddowes had to be killed where she was found and the killer had to work around the prevailing situation in the Square. If these murders were of an occult nature then this would explain why Eddowes had to be killed where found.These crimes without doubt (in my mind ) have the hallmark of a very good gameplayer stamped on them.I might also add that Jack had more front than Harrods and larger balls than one would expect to find hanging over a pawn brokers shop.I doubt very much if he could have played his game any closer to the knife's edge. |
Author: Clyde
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 12:58 am | |
Hello All,
Pierre,
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Please tell me what you believe the police did or should have done to send a message back to the killer.
The largest motivation in solving the crime for police officers at the time was to stop the killing. I'm sure some were motivated by fame, notoriety, public pressure, politics, etc. but the normal cop or detective on the street wanted to solve this case to stop the killing and bring the killer to justice. Most (not all) police officers at the time, just as now, had honorable intentions when it came to stopping violent crime and murder.
What I dont understand about your theory is how would the police gain the upper hand by hiding the killers message? If the killer wanted to get out a message and the police covered it up, would the killer not have to kill again to restate himself?
I find your post interesting but I'm not sure I understand your intended meaning.
Clyde |
Author: lucky pierre
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 12:33 pm | |
Ivor & Clyde:
IF it was a GAME/RITUAL etc., then pertinence must be shown to the following:
1. Stop the murder(s)...catch JtR IF possible.
2. Crimp JtR's game in some way.
Assume for all intentional purposes that the Ripper letters or Lusk kidney never occurred.
Absolutely, the police need/want to capture JtR but unless caught in the act, that possibility is REMOTE.
My argument is to "crimp the GAME." Do something that disrupts the "precision" and method of what is being done. Of all the locations for killing, Mitre Square was the most risky. Constables entering and leaving...and police (ex-police) living/working nearby. QUITE SIMPLY, the Eddowes murder DID NOT occur in Mitre Square nor did JtR place the body of Eddowes there. The authorities placed the body there! Why? First, the name Mitre Square. It is so heavily "Masonic" that I don't know why someone hasn't commented before about it! If I was looking for a Mason in London in 1888, I wouldn't frequent the nearest Lodge...I'd go to the nearest police station. I know Ivor will take me to task for this, BUT that murder DID NOT take place in Mitre Square and JtR DID NOT put Eddowes body there. It WASN'T humanly possible to execute the Eddowes murder given the circumstances! I agree with Ivor that Eddowes HAD to be killed where it ACTUALLY occurred but that WAS NOT Mitre Square! Was Eddowes a JtR victim? ABSOLUTELY! Did the "double event" actually happen on September 30? Most likely, YES. The timeline (as determined) just doesn't maneuver for the murder of Stride on Berner Street, the murder of Eddowes in Mitre Square and the Goulston Street graffiti. It makes a lot more sense when the Eddowes murder occurred somewhere else. The police (authorities) MOVED the body to Mitre Square for a REASON. THEY were the only ones who could have controlled the "variables" in Mitre Square...not JtR. My argument is that they sought to "disrupt" the GAME/RITUAL that night. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 04:16 pm | |
| Lucky, I think you can forget about the idea that the body was dumped in the Square by the police or anyone one else. Eddowes was murdered where she was found. The connection with Mitre Square and the masons has been aired before. It is alleged that the square was the site of a murder carried out by a monk or suchlike who committed murder on the altar of a church which stood there. Anyone know the full story ? |
Author: lucky pierre
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 05:07 pm | |
Ivor:
I await your time line discussion on the "double event" posted on another topic herein. |
Author: Howard Brown
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 06:50 pm | |
| Ivor,Lucky and all.....Just a comment on the perceptions of profilers..Robert Ressler,who claims correctly that profiling is not an exact science,but rather an art,also stated that in his opinion JtR was a very unorganized person/killer. All of what Mr.Edwards posted above disproves Ressler's professional assessment completely. No way was this killer just a whack job( Philadelphiaese for crazy person).No way. Ballsy,motivated,and careful....maybe even a very organized person....Regardless of the terrible mutilations,which may have led many to think he was a brute for this fact alone,my amateur sleuth mind says he was one step ahead for a reason. |
Author: lucky pierre
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 07:43 pm | |
| Don't dispute the analogy, Howard. Maybe if we focus on an organized "maniac" instead of these profiles, we will possibly yield a result. After all, they are over 100 years beyond when it occurred, aren't they? |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 08:28 pm | |
Dear Pierre,
You could also say JtR was over 100 light years ahead of profilers.
:-) |
Author: lucky pierre
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 08:47 pm | |
Rosemary:
Touche! |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 08:48 pm | |
| Hi Howard, Profiling is a hit and miss affair and many well known names in ripperology and crime in general have no time for profiling. I know one of this countries alleged leading experts and I know police officers who have worked with him and he is not always correct in his deductions. In fact he has made many mistakes in the past.Jack the ripper has always been under estimated this is one reason why he was never caught. A change of attitude is required. Also if Jack was such a dumb arse then what can be said of these expert profilers who have tried in vain to unmask him ? I certainly dont agree with the FBI profile of JtR. |
Author: lucky pierre
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 09:02 pm | |
| I concur with you on this point, Ivor. There was a method to the madness...what that mystery was still eludes us all. |
Author: Caroline Morris
Tuesday, 18 June 2002 - 01:27 pm | |
Hi Lucky, Ivor,
Didn't D'Onston write something about the graffiti being above Eddowes' body?
And isn't the explanation, if he was Jack, along the lines that he was only pretending to get such details wrong?
Lucky's theory about Eddowes being moved to Mitre Square from where she was actually killed (and the theory about a covered handcart, or barrow, posted elsewhere?) just reminded me of this little detail.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Tuesday, 18 June 2002 - 03:34 pm | |
| Caroline, What D'Onston did is termed mis-information or 'closing your back doors'. It is a trick many criminals use. It can come in handy if you ever get arrested and put before a jury. A good barrister can use it to his advantage in your defence.D'Onston was being careful and was thinking ahead of the game by making such statements. |
Author: Clyde
Friday, 21 June 2002 - 03:55 am | |
Hello All,
I fully understand your point Pierre. I just believe that perhaps we as a group are giving to much credit to this killer. I understand that he did some daring things but to hear some of the people on these boards you would swear he was supernatural!
Most criminals of this nature get caught by police in 3 ways.
1. By chance. Police investigating something supposedly unrelated stumble on to the killers identity.
2. By informants. A friend, family member or loved one goes to the police and basically tells on them.
3. The killer gets too bold. It has been therorized (spelling) that part of the attraction of these crimes is the thrill of getting away with it. The killer pushes the envelope to far, almost expecting to get caught or at least questioned. With hardly any coaxing the person starts gushing with information, as if its a relief to finally get to tell.
Police usually are approaching the solutions to who dunnit by behaving as reasonable men. They put themselves into the situations and think what they would do or not do under the same circustances. It seems sound but all the killer has to do to avoid detection is not think rationally. It sounds simple but it works. I dont believe this killer had enough time to really get his groove going for whatever reason. I see a progression in his behavior that I dont think would just stop. But who knows. I'm thinking as a rational man! How can you make sense of the non-sensical. Especially with the scant information provided to us in this case. It seems to me that people studying this case go by the assumption that if it were easy, it would have been solved. They in turn go way overboard (I'm not implying anyone here is overboard) building upon the theory or dismissal of prior ripperologists and not the basis of the case.
I am truley a novice and completely ignorant in the presence of such learned men and woman, this I freely admit. But sending messages? ,secret societies? ,polical statements? I think the reasons for these killings are much simpler. No, maybe not simple to you or me. But very elementary, and making perfect sense to the person who committed them.
We as human beings are very egotistical. We tend to believe in ourselves or the abilities of others that we hold in high regard with clouded judgement. I will say this though, for as hard as some of you work at this, if the answer can be found, (no matter how shrouded in mystery) one of you will no doubt find it. When you do, dont tell the truth. I like you all so much better this way.
I realize this was an unsolicited tangent. I now invite those who care, to crucify me with your superior intellect. I have carried my own cross.
Talk about egotistical!
Clyde |
Author: Howard Brown
Friday, 21 June 2002 - 10:25 pm | |
| Clyde: You commented that you felt,as I believe I heard Mr.Fido( just for an example and certainly not the only person to have done so ) state,that JtR's ostensibly increasingly more vicious kills,would lend one to believe that,unless killed/incarcerated/whatever,a killer such as he would not stop....Thats what is one of the real mysteries to this particular crime,did he? Personally,I find it fascinating to read the posts to discover more about the entire case. In my mind,the case HAS been solved. Its just that it hasn't or may never be,determined WHICH "Ripperhead" unearthed it....Is it Mr.Evan's Dr.T( motive:his uterus collection),Mr.Fido's Cohen..etc. ?.....I don't think that there's a problem with "going overboard" with some of the conspiratorial statements( not that I think there was one ). Remember the "Heaven's Gate" cult? Could anyone on this or any planet concoct such a bullshit reason to commit mass suicide in identical clothing the way they did? Heaven's Gate's "motive" makes most if not all of the potential motives of JtR seem garden variety,in comparison....How's this for a wild idea? A cadre of pissed off East Enders,wanting to create the rebellion of all rebellions,under the leadership of Mr.Lusk,go on a campaign of destroying some of their local prostitutes,in an effort to galvanize the community's attention to their plight and,of course,Parliament's attention and response or lack of one....It would explain the package Lusk( of all people?why him? Cohen would probably not send it and Tumblety was too sophisticated,if in fact,these are "the man") recieved....Americans seem to be much more "cut and dried" with conclusions..I really enjoy the British "window of doubt" civility..even when personally convinced,they are humble......... |
Author: Clyde
Saturday, 22 June 2002 - 01:41 am | |
Hello All,
Mr. Brown,
I had the chance to review my post in a different frame of mind. Perhaps I overstated my dislike of wild ideas. Although, I do believe that the motive in this case is probably more simple than complicated, I do not want to discourage anyone from voicing their theories. Your example of the Heavens Gate cult especialy hit home and I appreciate your insight and candor. I'll post more when I have the time.
Clyde |
Author: Howard Brown
Saturday, 22 June 2002 - 04:24 pm | |
| Clyde....Please don't feel like I was being a smart-ass,in response to your post. Again,at least to me,ANY and ALL comments in reference to this case expand our minds..Your friend,Howard |
Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Wednesday, 26 June 2002 - 07:48 pm | |
In the book "The Cases That Haunt Us" by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker, it is stated that they (or maybe just John Douglas) believe Jack was disorganized. I just don't buy it...there was a lot of careful planning to these murders. In Kate Eddowe's case, that murder could have been done in the time span allowed....but ONLY if the killer knew where to get that kidney...he didn't have to spend time looking for it, that's for sure. (I've often wondered if Jack went for the kidney to poke some fun at Michael Kidney....but that's another post, another day.)
It is amazing to me how, instead of interest slowly fading away in this case, it burns hotter than ever over 100 years later. People knew from the beginning that there was something stinkin' about this case, whether it was a cover-up or whatever. The lack of information is maddening. Why didn't somebody go back to some of these people and talk to them again later? M.J. Trow's book "The Many Faces of Jack the Ripper" shows an artist's illustration of George Hutchinson "in old age"....somebody not only went to this dude's house years later, they even drew a pic of him! Where's the accompanying interview? If nothing else, Hutchinson could have maybe remembered incidental Mary information if anyone bothered to ask.
Sorry, I am off on a tangent here but as all of you know, it can drive you crazy. I bet all of you long time Ripperologists were so happy when the Internet arrived.
Love,
Lita |
Author: Eduardo Zinna
Thursday, 27 June 2002 - 07:21 pm | |
Lita,
The picture of George Hutchinson in Trow's book has been derived from a photograph published inn Melvyn Fairclough's 'The Ripper and the Royals', which may have been given to him by Joseph Sickert. Not everyone is convinced of the proper provenance of the photograph, that is to say, that the man in it is really George Hutchinson.
Cheers
Eduardo |
