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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
A certain Mr. Crowley and his claims.
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: General Topics:
A certain Mr. Crowley and his claims.
Author: Triston Marc Bunker
Monday, 25 February 2002 - 03:15 pm |        | Hi all,
Sorry to open up a new line of conversation (or an old one if your line of thought has crossed this path before).
It has been said before that a certain Aleister Crowley made many claims to knowing the identity of Jack The Ripper. The name he had put forward was Helena Blavatsky.
I say that a member of his family knew a prime suspect, in this case Tumblety. I remember seeing a documentary about Tumblety, when his name was first suggested, here on British television.
the program covered a small part of Tumblety's life in this country. During this time he was arrested with three other men on indescency charges. The documentry splashed up on the screen the charge sheet that included the names of the other men. One name struck a cord with me, the surname Crowley.
To be honest, only speculation has found this conection. And if this speculation is true, IE that Aleister Crowley was related to the charged Crowley and that Aleister was covering his family tracks and suggesting another name, it doesn't give us a concrete suspect to hang all the crimes on.
All I ask of you, you band of merry men and women,has anyone else made that connection ? If so are the two Crowley's related or is it a mere happy coincidence ? Either way, please detail the conclusions you've come up with.
Tris |
Author: Jack Traisson
Monday, 25 February 2002 - 05:58 pm | | Hi Tris,
Crowley was the only son of a religious (Christian) family, his sister died in infancy. Since Aleister (Edward Alexander) was born in 1875, and his father died in 1887, i seriously doubt any connection to Tumblety. Crowley's family were not the type of people to associate with a man like Tumblety.
Many times in his life he claimed to know the identity of the Ripper. The name of Helena Blavatsky was discussed in John Symonds' book. 'The Great Beast: The Life and Magick of Aleister Crowley' (1971, reprint of 1951 edition but with additional material like the Blavatsky reference.)
Blavatsky died in 1891 at the age of 60. She is as likely as Queen Victoria to have been the murderer.
If you would like to know more about Blavatsky in relation to JtR, you can read Harris' 'The True Face of Jack the Ripper' or Ivor Edwards' 'Jack the Ripper's Black Magic Rituals'.
I have personally found that nothing Crowley said about JtR has any significance.
Cheers Head Space Monkey,
John |
Author: david rhea
Monday, 25 February 2002 - 07:04 pm | | | What Crowley knew he probably got from Victoria Cremers who was his secretary once.Crowley was certainly interested in Black Magic.At one time he was bosom buddies with one of the creators of the 'Golden Dawn',S. L. Mathers, who also practiced Black Magic on occasion. Crowley stole a lot of his rituals from Mathers and reworked them for his lodge ,the O.T.O.He had known H.P.Blavatsky. Blavatsky used the ideas of Bulwer Litton in her magnum opus 'Isis Unveiled'.Bulwer Lytton, an important and influential figure in 19th century occultism, was the member of a lodge in France that had also Eliphaz Levi as a member. These also were engaged at times with Black Magic.Bulwer Lytton initiated D'onston Stevenson into occult rites.Stevenson was the paramour of the popular Medium and author Mable Collins who did say that she became afraid of Stevenson and believed him to be Jack the Ripper.Yes there is a connection though not with Crowley but D'Onston.Francis King in his history of 'Ceremonial Magic' says that Collins and D'Onston were involved in sinister occult activities.King also points to the work of Melvin Harris as the main source for this subject. Harris has said that Ivor Edwards has taken the subject beyond his first investigations.It is a legitimate line of inquiry whether some believe it or not. |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 10:41 am | | Hello, Triston:
I believe the men with whom Dr. Tumblety was arrested on charges of engaging in acts of gross indecency in England in November 1888 were Albert Fisher, Arthur Brice, James Crowley, and John Doughty. As far as I know, there is no reason to believe James Crowley was in any way connected with Aleister Crowley. I hope this answers your question.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Grailfinder
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 03:32 pm | | Hi all
OK, that seem's to clear up the Crowley inquiry! might I now start another, Re the name Fisher? This name was I believe, the same as a relation of one of the victim's? I think it might have been Eddowes brother-in law? if so, it would make her claim of knowing whom Jack was interesting?
So, anyone know if the Fisher arrested with DR,T has any link to the Fisher related to the victim?
Cheers GF |
Author: Christopher T George
Wednesday, 27 February 2002 - 09:19 am | | Hi, Grailfinder:
Yes, probably we should explore the possible connections with Albert Fisher, the man found canoodling with Dr. T. He might, for example, have some connection with East End historian William Fishman or be a relative of Prince Albert Victor or the notorious Albert Fish, or possibly he was the artist who painted "The Fisherman's widow" hanging over MJK's fireplace? 
All the best
Chris
P.S. Good tly, Glailfinderl!  |
Author: Grailfinder
Wednesday, 27 February 2002 - 11:46 am | | Hi Chris
Now I'm sure there was a joke in there somewhere? but I'm afraid it bypassed me. (Please explain)
My sense of humour seems to be at a low today after hearing the news of Spike? our loss is heavens gain eh? |
Author: Christopher T George
Wednesday, 27 February 2002 - 12:02 pm | | Spike Milligan has died? Yes, indeed, thanks for letting me know, Grailfinder. Folks, one of the members of the immortal Goons, "Actor and comic Spike Milligan has died at his home in Sussex, at the age of 83." See Spike Milligan.
Sorry to hear the news, Grail. As for my post that you were answering, I was just having a bit of fun, Grail, over your allusion to Mr. Fisher who was had up for gross indecency with Dr. Tumblety. Maybe he is worth looking into, I don't know, but I do know that, my attempts at humor aside, there is a confusion of surnames in this case with a number of people having the same or a similar surname but not necessarily being connected.
Best regards
Chris |
Author: Grailfinder
Wednesday, 27 February 2002 - 12:54 pm | | Hello again Chris
I know what you mean matey, Long Liz/Liz Long and I've lost count of the Mary Jayne's and there seems to be more Bar's than there is in Glasgow city center! if it aint Barrnet its Barrat or Barnard or some other Bars*** but look on the bright side buddy and count our blessings that there were only 5 victim's eh?
But where does the Chinaman frit in? cuz I'm Borroxed if I can work than one out? lol
Cheers GF
PS
A bit of trivia for ya! what's the link between Spike, Myself, and a poetical JtR suspect?
Solve that and I'll forgive your sense of humour. Ha |
Author: Christopher T George
Wednesday, 27 February 2002 - 01:33 pm | | Hi, GF:
You might have me stumped on what might be the link between yourself, Spike Milligan, and a poetical JtR suspect, although the suspects that spring to mind for me are J. K. Stephen and Francis Thompson. Am I getting warm? Maybe I need a hint?
By the way, talking of Barnett, of course there is Joe Barnett and Reverend Samuel Barnett both with connections to the case. It also happens that Barnett is a Jewish name. I have the compendium of articles from the Jewish Chronicle edited by Doreen Berger entitled The Jewish Victorian and there are a sizeable number of Jewish Barnetts in there. This brings up the possibility that either Joe or Samuel might originally have been Jewish and perhaps have converted to Christianity before 1888, or that Joe might still have been Jewish (could all the Ripperologists have missed that???) --or that their families possibly could have been Jewish in earlier generations.
Best regards
Chris |
Author: Grailfinder
Wednesday, 27 February 2002 - 03:43 pm | | Chris
OK, your correct with J.K Stephen being the JtR suspect, now what? a clue you say, ok how's this. Anne Bessant (is that the correct spelling?) her of the Match girl's, or rather her partner in the whole affair? if you can figure out who, what and where for? you will be nearly there? geographicaly speaking? oh! and if you think that clue is a load of COBBLERS? you could be right!
Re the Jewish ref to Joe, I remember this popping up a couple of years ago on the boards. Was there not some mention of the possibility of Joe having had a strict religious upbringing? and also a possibility that the Rev and Joe were related somehow?
Funny but the name Barnett does not sound Jewish, it kind of has a cockney ring to it, is there any jewish reason for the manor of Barnet in London (as in Barnet Fare) that you know of?
As for items being missed by the Rippologists? I do hope so as I'm banking on something solid turning up to solve the case or at least point us in the right direction. Only please, dont let it be another bloody diary!
Re the Barnett family having Jewish blood, do you know of any brothers/sisters such as Danny, that might have married? as their religious leanings might be on the license? just a thought.
Also what do you make of their Christian names? Joseph and Daniel. these are Jewish are they not? (Yeah I agree, that last sentence sounds Irish? but I'm sure you know what I mean)
I'll leave you with one last clue to the question I posed.
One was placed there indefinatley? One was sent there frequently? One was born and remained there?
and the name of the Maternity Hospital where he was born was (I kid you not) the BARRATT.
Cheers for now GF |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 28 February 2002 - 01:37 pm | | Hi, GF:
You have given me a poser and I am intrigued. Let me work on it.
I agree that Barnett does not sound like a Jewish name. Here though is a site on the The Jews' Free School, London which shows that the headmistress in 1822 of the Bell Lane school was Leah Barnett. One of the first Jews to settle in Willesden was Solomon Barnett, a property developer and builder who lived in Brondesbury Road. He was born in Poland about 1845, and had become a naturalized British subject. This might indicate that the name "Barnett" was a name adopted as an English-sounding surname to replace the Eastern European name the person had before entering the United Kingdom. I have also, though, seen Barnett given as a first name for a number of Jewish people, e.g., there was a Barnett Cohen, furniture broker, 29 Sandy’s Row listed in the quote from Henry Mayhew's discussion of Jewish London in his classic London Labour and the London Poor (1851) cited on Jeffery Maynard's Jewish genealogy site which might indicate that, to the contrary, Barnett is a traditional Jewish name. (Actually it looks as if Maynard has interspersed the list of Jewish shopkeepers with the quotes from Mayhew, to add to the value of the quotes. One of the shopkeepers besides Barnett Cohen is Hyam Barnett, 2 St James’ Place, foreign and Hebrew bookseller.
Best regards
Chris George |
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