Archive through 08 August 2001

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Archive through 08 August 2001

Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: Research Issues / Philosophy: Needing Information re: Annie Chapman: Archive through 08 August 2001

Author: Ivy J Wednesday, 18 July 2001 - 12:22 pm
I'm needing information regarding Annie Chapman's actual day of birth. I know she was born in September, but does anybody know the DAY? Also, any additional information regarding Annie Chapman or informative links would be appreciated. Thanks!
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden Thursday, 19 July 2001 - 11:13 am
Sorry Ivy, as far as I know, the actual birth date of Annie Chapman is not known. It is not even certain that she was born in September and the year is also in doubt, (either 1840 or 41). Wolf.
Author: E Carter Monday, 23 July 2001 - 05:42 pm
Wolf, if it really is as far as you know, forget it! ED.
Author: E Carter Monday, 23 July 2001 - 05:48 pm
Are you sure of your own birthday?
Author: Simon Owen Monday, 23 July 2001 - 07:40 pm
Do you know more than you are telling Ed ?
Author: graziano Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 05:59 am
Hello Simon, Ed told who was Jack (or at least he went very near), he told how he did it and why. He did it clearly (except for the grammar used), and in a very logical and (if I may) scientific way. He answered all the misterious aspects of each case one by one not relying when that was compelling on figures like "Lucky Jack" or "Lunatic Jack". He did it as far as he could in preserving his interests. Business is Business. How could he tell more than what he has already told ? Of course, Simon, I am not an expert on the case. Bye. Graziano.
Author: E Carter Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 11:37 am
Simon, let's begin by asking ourselves two simple questions concerning the Goulstone Street Graffiti. 1.Why does the author leave indents either side of the text? 2.Why does the author meticulously join all letters to each other until he arrives at the letters B-l-a of the word B-lamed, in line 4? The answers to question 1. is that he is trying to line up letters vertically! To question 2. That he wrote the letter 'l', first, because again here he was trying to line it up with the letters above and below. Then once he had placed it correctly, he wrote the letters either side, thus leaving the three letters horizontally separated. Viper was the first to indicate this in one of his unrelated posts! What does the text mean? Reading from one capital letter to the next, and translated it makes total sense by reading thus: Line 1. The Juwes are! Line 2. The exchange. Line 3. Will not be-up-down. Line 4. B-lamed: - move'B' up. Line 5. For renewal in a higher state. See later post! When the 'B' is then moved up to where the arrows above it point to, and then converted using the Hebrew substitution cypher indicated (Atbash). The text will read: 'for I am Will iam wess' reading directly up the middle of the grafitti . This is exactly what the message is supposed to say, and I know why! William Wess, named William West, in most newspapers reporting the Stride murder, was brought as a Hassic Jew in Russia. Apprenticed as a shoemaker aged 12 before leaving Russia to avoid military service, arriving in England in 1881. He soon became an anarchist, describing himself in later years as a 'holigan'! He was involved with some very dangerous people, he became the propaganda officer for the 'English Anarchists' soon after the murders ceased. This is where things get very interesting! ED Sorry about the poor grammar, no excuse Best wishes ED. Grazianno, if you have not recieved the photo, you will soon I have a new computor system comming. ED
Author: E Carter Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 11:48 am
Now we have a message down the middle of the text, put this to one side, and we have two separate texts, one on either side. So we now have three separate pieces of text ! ED>
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 02:29 pm
Best be careful Mr Carter lest Matron come and take your crayons away again. Wolf.
Author: graziano Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 04:59 pm
Hello Wolf, I do not know who Mr or Mrs Matron is, but is by luck that yesterday I read your name on another board (sorry I do not remember which one) and I got aware that you should be well acquainted with the murder of Emma Smith. Apparently the reports on that fact say that she did not described her attackers but she said that one of them was a 19 year man. Would you by chance know how she did know than one of her will-be-murderer was born in 1869 ? Thank you very much. Bye. Graziano.
Author: Simon Owen Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 06:52 pm
I'm afraid Wolf was being sarcastic graz !
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 08:41 pm
Dear Ed, While I do not entirely disagree with your line of reasoning...that the Goulston Street grafitto is a species of cypher and that the word "Juwes" may yield the key to its decypherment...the proffered solution, that it is wholly a Hebrew method of encryption, is incorrect. This simple encryption mode of breaking an alphabet in two parts, is described in the Kama Sutra...it was a far more common device in the ancient world. The acrostic method was also well-known to ancient Greek poets and playwrights. There appears to be no valid connection between such crypticisms and Hebrew etymology... which implies an oblique Judaic-related conspiracy... and notwithstanding the fact that William Wess was a political agitator, I hardly think he was so stupid to write his name on the wall for PC Ed Carter of the Met. Police to solve the mystery over tea and biscuits. Matron Rose (4 across) :-)
Author: graziano Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 04:46 am
Hello Simon, I know that Wolf was sarcastic but what I did not know is how to get in the discussion. Do not worry, Simon, I do not have any reputation or honor to defend so if I do not give the impression to be very acute (and maybe it is the right one), it does not matter very much. Bye. Graziano.
Author: graziano Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 04:57 am
Hello Matron Rose, I think that if Met. Police had Ed Carter in its ranks at the time, this casebook would be about the origins of Shakespeare. Bye. Graziano.
Author: E Carter Sunday, 29 July 2001 - 09:50 am
Rosie, and Grazziano, sorry I have been away, only recently returning today. Rosie what do you know about Mr Wess? Take my advice and read all you can! He's not the ripper, but! One major problem with writing this sort of duel message in the grafitti comes in constructing the sentences. The strange capital letters, the duel indents and the fact that the 'l' in Blamed was separate were all minor clues. However, there is something that 'everyone' has missed yet it looks you in the face! Graziano, I have made several attempts to post a picture to you without success, could it be a problem at you end. It seems to be a problem with computor space. I will continue to try however! ED
Author: E Carter Sunday, 29 July 2001 - 09:59 am
Rosie, in one of your earlier posts you clearly state that 'The Code Book' by Simon Singh, has not been on you reading list. Place it there! Read page 26 with great care. Best wishes ED.
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Sunday, 29 July 2001 - 07:50 pm
Dear Ed, And Shalomon spake great wisdom...from the trees that are in Libanon even unto the Aesop on the wall. Rosey Riddle:-)
Author: E Carter Monday, 30 July 2001 - 05:21 pm
Rosie, as you know, the Kama-sutra includes a substitution cipher first described by Vatsyanana in the 4th century AD. However, there are similar preceding manuscripts dating back to the 4th century BC, that recommend women should study 64 arts including, cooking, dressing, massage, conjuring and chess. Number 45 on the list, 'mlecchita-vicalpa' is the art of secret writing advocated to conceal liasons. This is basically a transposition cipher; meaning the position of the plaintext is moved. It is then normally complemented by a substitution cipher, obviously meaning that it is then also substituted with another letter. This can be used with any type of alphabet. The secret text within the Goulstone Street grafitti, includes a substitution cipher allied with atbash and the Hebrew alphabet alone. Atbash is a Hebrew substitution cipher normally used to hide or change someones name. The Hebrew alphabet begins at the letter 'A': 'aleph' and finishes with the letter 'T' or 'Tav'. However, it must be remembered that between these two extreme letters, the Hebrew alphabet, includes several letters normally only found after the letter 'T', when using the English alphabet. An example here is that the Hebrew alphabet, places the letter 'Y' before the letter 'T'. Then on completing the transformation from Hebrew to English, it is 'these very letters' that ensure us that the code used by the killers, when they constructed the grafitti, is atbash translated from Hebrew into English. The odds that chance are involved here become totally unreal! When you mention that 'The Ripper' would not leave a message for the 'likes of myself' to find over a cup of tea. Lets face it, he was clever enought to realize it would take someone over 100 years to work out that the letters 'l-a-m-e-d' also make up the letter 'l' of the Hebrew alphabet, and that the very same letters make up most of the word B-lamed in line 4 of the grafitti. Best Wishes ED
Author: E Carter Monday, 30 July 2001 - 05:35 pm
Rosie, believe me, I know who did it! And I can prove it ! ED.
Author: Simon Owen Monday, 30 July 2001 - 06:30 pm
A full description of the Atbash cipher appears in Lionel and Patricia Fanthorpe's book on Rennes-Le-Chateau. Simon
Author: E Carter Monday, 30 July 2001 - 06:45 pm
No doubt he is better know as 'Ronnie from the big house', or they are trying to tell poor old Ronnie that he is overweight or something. But more importantly, how the hell did you get that bloody flamey sort of thing up there? ED.
Author: E Carter Tuesday, 31 July 2001 - 08:00 am
Rosie, I am also sure you realize that elements within the grafitti were targeted to attract the attention of certain people. In order to draw someones attention to a piece of text, first it is important to understand what they know. For example if I wrote 1+1=12, everyone would know that I am wrong and the response telling me so would be from a wider audience. However, if I wrote that the Lord Mayor of Buggles-Kelly North, was also the police chief for B-K South, I would expect a narrower response, probably only from those in the police-force. Or Martin Fido, ED.
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Tuesday, 31 July 2001 - 04:14 pm
Dear Ed, The notion of a cypher within a cypher is both a novel one and within the bounds of possibility... your solution might yet be one of many similar solutions which point to other - untravelled paths. I do hope you have it all written on a wall somewhere before the Big Red One strikes our screens blind. Armageddon Rose :-)
Author: E Carter Tuesday, 31 July 2001 - 06:04 pm
I do indeed Rosie! ED. I did offer to identify the killer to you in a private post, do you remember? Understand this because this was the type of food that nourished our killer until a little later in his life. Forty Minus One. The final idea which can cast substantial light on the inner meaning of Shabbat may be gleaned from the talmudic phraseology of the prohibitions on Shabbat. There are 'forty minus one' general categories of creative work which are prohibited. Why number them in this cumbersome fashion; why not 39? The number symbolism is central to much of Jewish philosophy and practice. The number forty conveys a particular symbolic significance. That this significance is especially relevant to Shabbat is hinted more than once in the Torah. One device employed by the Torah to convey it's meaning involves numerical codes. The Torah is not divided into sentences; the only meaningful divisions are those into various kinds of block To be cont. ED
Author: E Carter Tuesday, 31 July 2001 - 06:20 pm
Again, Rosie I will say I know who did it! A secondary subject: Tonight, I had an arguement with an East End resturant owner, the problem centered around if my lovely golden retriever, Gemma, was allowed to enter his establishment. We compromised, and agreed that if he cleaned the place up a little I would allow her to enter. Could we have some sort of agony person who would advise us on this very delicate type of matter. Like 'whats her name'. ED
Author: E Carter Wednesday, 01 August 2001 - 05:55 pm
Cont. The number forty stands for purificaton and subsequent renewal in a higher state. Moses spent forty days dwelling on Mount Sinai, the children of Israel spend forty years wandering in the wilderness. This is the period required for a new generation to arise to which is not conditioned by slavery. When building a temple, the thirty-nine phroibitions can be legislated for, laid out in full for all to be clear of the details, The fortieth can only be hinted at. This is because it is up to each individual to reach for that transient spark that makes their shabbat holy, and to recieve accordingly the spirit of renewal in a higher state. ED To be continued.
Author: E Carter Wednesday, 01 August 2001 - 06:03 pm
Thus the last line of the grafitti 'for nothing', means forty; renewal in a higher state. ED.
Author: E Carter Thursday, 02 August 2001 - 01:57 pm
Rosie. Please excuse the fact that this is a little off subject, but the graffiti relates to all the murders! As do all letters in the Hebrew alphabet, Lamed, or the letter 'L', also has other associations including both to learn, and a numerical value of 30. However, because the letter 'L' is the tallest in the alphabet the most significant meaning denoted is ' to extend above; spiritual teaching'. Now lets examine the last three words of the graffiti in lines 4, and 5, B lamed; in line four, and for nothing; in line five. B lamed, in line four of thre grafitti, means to extend the letter 'B' above; 'for nothing' in line five, hints at the number '40' This means; renewal in a higher state. We then simply follow the arrows above. Notice the direction on the stem of the 'B' it actually points in the same position as the arrows above on the letters 'W' and 'T'. Then place the letter 'B' where the arrows indicate, which is in the extra space provided in the top line. Now read alternate letters backwards, down then up, beginning with the the letter' a' which is at the begining of the word 'are' in line one. This will spell the word atbash, and as we know this is a Hebrew substitution cipher. On her discovery, Annie Chapman's dress was up on the thighs. Her legs were in Abduction, meaning her knees were slumped out and open, and away from her body. Oddly her forefeet extended and her toes were pointing down towards the shed at the bottom of the yard. We must ask why? The only logical answer is that after Annie had been chloroformed and had slumped to the ground, two men then lifted her together, moving her down, and away from the back door. The killer who lifted her lower half, first had to raise Annie's dress in order to grip under her knees. On picking her up whilst holding Annie under the knees her legs were were forced out and open. At the same time, on lifting her, Annie's forefeet and toes were pulled down into planter extention by gravity. As killers, in their panic, do not think to alter these positions, her dress and limbs remained in the same positions after they laid her down ! However, Richardson and Green are both problems as very astutely noticed by Grazianno. ED. I think Green lived in Winthrope Street. Best Wishes ED.
Author: E Carter Thursday, 02 August 2001 - 02:15 pm
PS Stride did actually have grapes in her right hand, ED. If she had cachous placed in her left hand, why is it so unreal that she might have had grapes placed in her right? ED. I know why they were there !
Author: Mark List Thursday, 02 August 2001 - 06:41 pm
why DID she have grapes in her right hand? Were they placed there? or did she buy them? -Mark
Author: Jesse Flowers Thursday, 02 August 2001 - 10:35 pm
Hello Mark- There were no grapes in Stride's hand. This is an old canard with its origin in erroneous press reports. Dr. Blackwell, who examined her as she lay in Dutfield's Yard, stated categorically at the inquest that no grapes were found on or anywhere near the body. AAA88
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Friday, 03 August 2001 - 06:54 am
Dear Ed, Still digesting the Cartesian Semiotics. And, so, on to the 'motive'? Rosey :-)
Author: E Carter Friday, 03 August 2001 - 08:08 am
Mark, and Jessie, firstly, do not believe anything concerning these murders unless you have read the actual source material for yourself. Many people view that if someone, for example, Phillip Sugden, arrived at a certain opinion i.e that there were no grapes in Strides hand, none were there! Although, Sugden's book 'The Complete History of Jack The Ripper' is an excellently researched overview of the murders, and a wonderful book. This is because there are so few 'historical mistakes'(probably because he is a Historian) However, there are many 'analytical' mistakes! I will give you an example of both. When I read that, Cross, and Paul the men who discovered Polly Nichols, said that her dress was up on her thighs, and when they tried to pull it down Cross said ' it was as if it would not come down'. This created concern. Why would the dress not come down? Why was the dress in a position that hampered these men pulling it down in the first place? Two days of analysis assured me that the position of Polly's dress was created by the two men who carried her from the stableyard! The man who lifted Polly's legs, first, had to raise the long Victorian dress in order to to grip under her knees. As they carried her out and into Bucks Row, the hem of the dress drooped down between her legs, and as they laid Polly down, she simply sat on it. This is why the men who discovered her body could not pull the the dress down! Sugden takes in all these facts concerning the dresss without any real analysis! Jessie, I hope, like 'Foxy' Van Der Linden, you have not digested this book with out chewing over the facts first! Or have you? To be cont. ED.
Author: Jesse Flowers Friday, 03 August 2001 - 08:24 am
Hello E- If by 'actual source material' you mean the verbatim transcript of the Stride inquest as reported in The Times of October 6, 1888, that is precisely where this information comes from. I wouldn't dream of taking someone else's conclusions and making them my own, even so astute a historian as Mr. Sugden. AAA88
Author: E Carter Friday, 03 August 2001 - 04:21 pm
The newspapers were probably the best form of inacurate communication! Believe me, I have spent many hours at Colindale Newspaper Library. Earlier, The Viper was reduced to quoting newspaper reports to make a point; at this phase I had to forget the subject! However, The Viper is clever! The Times and the Telegraph are actually the worse offenders because the people who had the power to communicate believed the reports from these newspapers. Get your nose into the East End of London in 1888! Read reports from East End Advertiser between 1887 and 1888. Mark, look at the sheets between Mary Kelly's legs. Read what happened. If you really become stuck, e-mail me and I will advise you. Take your time, do not rush! DO NOT RUSH. ED Jessie, could you be related to Tiger Flowers? What a fighter, I myself, would have deemed it a pleasure to have met Tiger. Sad end ED
Author: Jesse Flowers Friday, 03 August 2001 - 05:50 pm
Hello E I agree that the Victorian press was often inaccurate in its reportage, but I see no especial reason to regard the ELA as more trustworthy than such publications as the Times and the Daily Telegraph. To the contrary, most of the ELA articles I have read have fairly oozed with sensationalistic hyperbole. In any case, since no official record of the Stride inquest has survived (to my knowledge), we have no choice but to rely on the newspaper accounts in the absence of time-traveling equipment or divine revelation (however, if you do have access to either of these, I'd appreciate it if you could get me tomorrow's lottery numbers. Thanks). Correct me if I'm wrong but I assume that the purpose of all of this is to convince us that Matthew Packer is an important witness. I'm sure that Mark, with very little research, can learn for himself that this man's testimony is utterly valueless. On the morning of the murder he told police that he had seen nothing at all, but later invented a story for the benefit of newspaper reporters, a story which was altered with each retelling. This information, incidentally, comes from the Scotland Yard files, not from any newspaper. On the other hand, the only source of support for Matthew Packer and his 'grapes' story comes from those same inaccurate newspapers that Mr. Carter so stridently condemns. I think it unlikely that I'm related to Tiger Flowers as I am of the Caucasian persuasion and the great Tiger, as you may know, was not. I agree that he was an outstanding fighter but unfortunately fought in a middleweight division that was crowded with great fighters like Harry Greb, Mickey Walker and Tommy Loughran. And while Tiger was more of a boxer, I'm more of a slugger :-) AAA88
Author: E Carter Sunday, 05 August 2001 - 07:03 pm
Jessie, you are correct in assuming that Packer was lying, however the killers certainly placed the grapes in Liz Strides hand. As were all these women, Liz was set up. In brief, the tall man standing in the doorway was placed there to ensure Liz could not escape towards Fairclought Street. When Schwartz said that this same man appeared to chase 'him' from a doorway at the junction, Schwart's was wrong! To avoid her assailant, and for safety, Liz took off in the same direction as Schwarts the tall man was actually blocking her exit! They wanted to ensure Liz would go towards the Commercial Road, where they had prepared a place to chloroform her. This is where the couple noticed by Brown and Fanny first came into play. When Fanny Mortimer said she heard 'the measured tramp of a policeman on his beat go by the window,' then went immediately to her front door. She actually heard the first two men carrying Liz back past her front door. They disappeared into the alley, this (is why Fanny saw no one). Think about it, Fanny said, she went 'immediately' to the front door. Then she should have seen the person making this noise before he reached the corner with either Fairclought Street or the nearest corner towards the Commercial Road. (Have you noticed that when women go to stand at the front-door, they fold their arms then bend the head forward quickly scanning up and down the road to see what's going on. The bruising under and over Strides clavicles, confirm they panicked as Fanny opened her door! The killer carrying her upper torso, was holding under the arms and over her shoulders, he had to grip in to her flesh as they rushed into the alley! (this, and Strides knees are signs of their panic). By now, the couple noticed by Brown and Fanny had taken up their position on the corner of Berner and Fairclought Street. Pretending to be sweethearts, it's almost funny, 'not tonight some other night'! To be Cont. PS I have a photo of the Greb, Flowers weight-in on my wall. Greb is wearing a Woolworths Type vest. Flowers really should have been a light heavyweight (as you will know, then, there was no super-middle-weight). Walker, the 'toy bulldog' was on of my all time favorites, however I would prefere Henry Armstrong; what an achievement! ED
Author: E Carter Tuesday, 07 August 2001 - 02:29 pm
The couple that were seen by both Brown, and Fanny Mortimer, kept watch on the corner whilst the first two men carried Liz back passed Fanny's door. But the killers never accounted for a neighbour opening a door at this crucial time. However, when Fany did so, the men carrying Liz quickly moved into the alley; rushing towards the right wall for cover. This is why Liz's knees and legs were both thrown over towards her left side; or the right wall of the alley. But let us look at Liz's bodily position in more detail! Her right hand lay over the chest! This is because picking up her upper torso, holding under the arms and gripping over her shoulders. (which incidently, also created the 'pressure marks' under and over the clavicles noticed by Blackwell) it naturally forced both Liz's arms onto her chest. As they put her down, whilst they moved towards the right wall, the propusion forced her left arm down and onto the floor. Strangely, the right arm, that remained over her chest was smeared with blood and in spite of the fact that no blood lay between her severed neck and the arm in question. Why? I will return to this odd puzzle a little later! Liz's feet were in planter extension, meaning the toes were pointing down, something like a ballet dancer on tip toe. This was because the man carrying her lower torso first lifted Liz by gripping under her knees, and as he lifted, her toes were forced down as he carried her along by gravity. So why was blood smeared on the the right hand that still lay over her chest? What would create a 'smear'? The Ripper simply cleaned the excess blood from the blade of his knife on her chest before he secreted it away, in order to avoid contamination? They cleverly remembered to place both the cachous in her left hand to account for the smell of chloroform which is 40 times sweeter than cane sugar, chloroform was used to fix photo's to newspaper in those days. Der Arbieter fraint was an anarchist newpaper! They also remembered to put the grapes in her left! To be continued. ED Jessie, I thought that Ali was a bit of a 'head hunter'. He threw so few body shots, what do you think? ED.
Author: graziano Wednesday, 08 August 2001 - 05:03 am
Hello Ed, on the board: "Specific witness: A type of hell: The fall of Louis Diemschutz" I asked a question to Rick, Harry and Chris George about the map of Berner street. You are welcome if you know the answer. The purpose would be to come to the following question: Was there a passage between Dutfield's yard and Batty's gardens ? I think there could have been one in the north side of the club, but no real evidence of it. Bye. Graziano.
Author: E Carter Wednesday, 08 August 2001 - 08:09 am
Grazziano, Yes! There was a passage, this was the very passage Goldstien used to re-enter Berner Street from the club in order to get the shirt covered in Stride's blood. I am off to work now, but I will get back to you later concerning the photo. Best Wishes ED