Archive through July 27, 2001

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Archive through July 27, 2001

Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: General Topics: JtR: Black Magic to invoke Jack Sheppard?: Archive through July 27, 2001

Author: Christopher T George Monday, 23 July 2001 - 08:00 am
Hi, Rob: I think your theory that the September 25, 1888, Dear Boss letter and the Saucy Jacky postcard contain clues that a ring that practiced black magic committed the murders bears scrutiny. Certainly, then, I would welcome examination of the Dear Boss letter and the postcard by someone qualified in the area of black magic symbolism. Best regards Chris George
Author: Jon Monday, 23 July 2001 - 08:11 am
Excuse me for interjecting here Rob, but initially the police viewed the earliest murders as the work of several men, they considered a gang was at work, it was as the murders progressed, and the evidence no longer supported this conclusion that they settled on a lone killer. Regards, Jon (whats the difference between a gang of men and a group of conspirators? - the police certainly did consider more than one was involved)
Author: Caroline Anne Morris Monday, 23 July 2001 - 10:23 am
Hi All, What I'd like to know is, how would the police have decided which was the more likely, in the absence of evidence, either pointing to a lone killer, or a group of killers? All we seem to have is evidence that the same hand likely killed three of the Whitechapel murder victims - not much to go on really, is it? We have many more 'unfortunate' victims to consider, all murdered in broadly similar-looking circumstances, over a relatively short period of time, in a very small area of East London. No one believes they were all killed by the same individual. Yet it seems no more sensible to suggest there must have been at least three such disturbed, knife-wielding individuals, operating at the same time (for those who believe Tabram and the torso murders were the work of two non-Jacks, for example), than to imagine that some of the murders by other hands might have been related somehow to the ripper crimes. The only reason to think otherwise would be the one Chris gives, that the more people involved, the more likely they, and their funny little game, would have been found out eventually - unless, I suppose, they were an extremely well-organised team, fiercely loyal to each other, and determined to make it work. But if one of them had decided to confess, and been unable to prove his or anyone else's involvement, even as handler/placer of a victim killed by others.... sorry, I'm getting carried away - I think I'm on the wrong topic. Love, Caz
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Monday, 23 July 2001 - 11:02 am
Dear Caroline,Chris, You both raise the objection to the idea of more than one...more than two persons...on the premise that any 'group' cohesion dependent on 'loyality'. The fatal flaw in the 'bonding' matrix of such a criminal mix would be a product of time i.e., they would fall out over something at some time... probably sooner rather than later. But if such a group comprised a duo/trio... possibly, one or the others, could terrorise the weaker member(s) by threats...or direct violence? On the other hand, since we do not quite comprehend the goal of "Jack the Ripper(s)", it is, admittedly, a process of learning about such dynamics within any such hypothesized grouping... and just what ends they were focussed on. If there more than one "Jack"...everything appears insuperable? Rosey :-)
Author: Robert Maloney Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 09:07 am
Hi all, I honestly believe in the Jack Sheppard/black magic theory of which (Witch?) I am arguing. I also understand any reluctance in accepting this theory. It does sound strange to us in the year 2001. But I need help in putting this all together. So maybe you will bear with me if I ask some questions while I try to expand on this. For example, if the killer or killers were practicing black magic, we know that this would, at least in part, involve the use of the elemental forces, such as fire and water. I believe an example of this can be found in the circumstances surrounding Mary Kelly's murder. The large red stone worn by the man last seen with Mary Kelly might have been what is referred to by folk magic practitioners as a Divinity or creek stone. It is associated with the element of fire. There might, and I emphasize "might", be a rune on her wall that was also associated with the element of fire. And there was, as some would argue, a raging fire in her room. But I am now looking for evidence that the killers used the element of water, possibly for conjuring or some other craftwork purpose. So I have a question for those of you familiar with the parts of London near Newgate, or Blackfriars, names that can be found in the Jack Sheppard story. What would be the name of the nearest body of water to any of these areas? I know where I am going with this but I want to be sure before I make a fool of myself. thanks in advance Rob
Author: Robert Maloney Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 09:44 am
And thank you Mr. George for your earlier reply. Rob
Author: Christopher T George Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 11:59 am
Hi, Rob: I believe the answer to your question would have to be the Thames. Look at http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/1859map/map1859_j-l_19-21.html, where Newgate is located just north of St. Paul's Cathedral and the Blackfriars - Ludgate Hill area is even closer to the river, with Blackfriars Bridge being one of the bridges traversing the Thames. Best regards Chris George
Author: The Viper Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 12:50 pm
The alternative to the Thames would be the River Fleet, by then piped underground below Farringdon Street and New Bridge Street. Regards, V.
Author: Bob Hinton Tuesday, 24 July 2001 - 06:10 pm
Dear Everyone, I've just found this discussion and wonder if I might comment. First off Leanne's post of the 4th July where she asserts that in spite of checking over 200 killers she has not found one who has 'named' himself. May I offer a letter posted August 7th 1969 quote "Dear Editor, This is the Zodiac speaking...." and also a letter found on the 17th April 1977 quote "I am a monster. I am the Son of Sam....." Perhaps Leanne should have looked at 202 killers As to the main theory of the Dear Boss and Saucy Jacky postcards being connected with black magic, let us first of all deal with the post card. There are no horns on the postcard there are smudges. You can interpret them in many ways for example the smudge on the front of the postcard looks just like a ladies shoe of the Regency period. Are we looking for a refugee from Dolcis? The smudge on the reverse looks just like a slug about to climb a piece of grass. The trouble with this type of theory is it is always too complicated. If the horns are supposed to protect the letter/postcard and guarantee delivery why not just draw a set of horns? Regardless of who saw them and perhaps recognised them as a runic symbol the magic would still guarantee delivery wouldn't it? I sometimes work with a psychic and have often come across fakes in this field. You can always spot a fake when they start to say " Do you know a Henry or a George or is it William, or it could be Henrietta, Georgina or Willimina" What you want is someone to say ' I have contacted William Frederick Snapford-Smythe of 15 Little Wibble Road" If your magician wanted to draw a set of horns why didn't he? As for the letter, I have serious doubts about its being written by the killer. First of all the red ink is nothing more then an attempt at the dramatic. An insane killer called Nodder used to write to his intended victims and he always used red ink. I know this for a fact as my mother received one! Red is the colour that is historically likely to instill terror. The Soviets used it as did the Nazis and Hammer films used gallons of the stuff on their posters. If you check out the bill board poster for the Evening News & Post you will find they were printed in red ink. As for saving blood from a victim in a bottle this is ludicrous. A ginger beer bottle has a relatively narrow neck, how on earth do you suppose that the killer was hoping to catch blood in it? Why go to all the trouble, just nip along to any slaughter house and they would have given you a bucket of the stuff. If it has to be the blood of your victim then take her somewhere quite and do the job there - not the back yard of a house in a busy thoroghfare just as people are getting up to go to work. The author was obviously trying to go for maximum effect with this chilling scenario! As for attributing the threat to 'clip' someones ear off as being the perogative of a magician as they carried clippers couldn't the same be said about a careless barber. all the best Bob Hinton
Author: Caroline Anne Morris Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 05:01 am
Hi Bob, If an insane killer is known to have used red ink to write to his intended victims, and a sick hoaxer will use the same device, both trying in their individual ways to instil terror and be dramatic - how are we any nearer deciding whether we are dealing with a killer or a hoaxer - or both - in the case of Dear Boss and Saucy (as in Bloody) Jacky? Couldn't a killer have the same imagination as a hoaxer, and go for similar dramatic imagery? If he writes what he was planning to do with his victim's blood, why on earth do we need to take him any more literally than we would a hoaxer? Or can't murderers make things up too, to spice up their own crimes? Careless barbers remind me of that old joke. Customer with only one ear is having his hair cut. Barber asks him: "Have you come here before, sir?" Customer replies "No, I lost my ear in the war." Love, Caz
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 05:41 am
Dear Mr Maloney, Three questions: 1.Do you believe in the efficacy of 'witchcraft'? 2.Where is your source (!) for the idea of "Runic protection"? 3.Are you talking about an experienced "Hex-master" validating your theory, or a person familiar with the scholarly sources relating to witchcraft and magic? Rosey :-)
Author: Robert Maloney Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 07:26 am
Thank you very much Mr. George and Viper for the information you have provided. Rob
Author: Robert Maloney Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 08:26 am
Mr Hinton, As I have written before, I do intend to go into great detail on what I believe the real message of the 'Dear Boss' letter was. So for now, let me just say that you do not appear to have a great deal of knowledge on the subject of black magic. And I don't mean to be rude, I just want to stay in the same 'key' as your message was. And if you did have great experience on this subject, you would have recognized that the man described by Hutchinson was dressed as a black magician or a folk magician would have dressed. Hutchinson was "used" by this person, not the other way around. Seals, red stones, horseshoe pins, red hankerchiefs, black and white shades, and a parcel in American cloth, was not likely to have come from Hutchinson's wild imagination I'm afraid. Individually, each of these items might seem insignificant, but taken together, they add up to a black magician. The style of dress, with the astrakhan collar etc., was typical for the time, of an "actor", as was probably, the turned up moustache. In any case, anyone who dabbled in "magic", that would wear a horseshoe pin, would also end their letters with "good luck". This is an important point frequently overlooked by those who analyze the letter. Writing "good luck" in a letter that also underlines red, has 'curse it', and 'no luck yet', is highly significant. Furthermore, he did not say he collected the blood in a ginger beer bottle, only that he saved it in one. And this is for the citric acid, which along with sour salt, acts as an anti-coagulant for those that write with inks made from blood. And only one type of person that I know of would write with an ink made from blood: a black magician. Remember, in the United States, through the 1800s and early 1900s, there were men you could hire to cast evil spells for you if you paid them to do so. You also could go to them if you needed surgery!!!! This type of 'doctor' would have no problem collecting blood from one of his victims. Afterall, the killer of Annie Chapman did display surgical skill. And that is why he wrote, 'Grand work the last job was' and 'they say I'm a doctor now ha ha'. Oh, and by the way, casting a spell is known as a 'job'. Seam rippers, clippers, red items, horsehoes, red stones, "good luck" amulets, writing with red ink or blood from a sacrificed human or animal, black and white shades, getting paid for casting spells, and hating the police, are all part of things that make up a Hexmeister Doctor. And wearing an American hat too I might add. Rob
Author: Robert Maloney Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 09:29 am
Hi Rosey, Number one, I generally don't comment on any persons religion, Witchcraft, or otherwise.:-) As far as sources, I have been a forensic psychology student of one type or another for many years and have many sources for the information I've been writing about. But I do not consider myself an expert in any of these areas. If I have an area of expertise, it would be in the area of probability. Which I think has some relevance here because certain things seem to mean alot more to me than to others. For example, the 'Dear Boss' letter writer uses "Good luck" for himself and those he was involved with. He was not wishing the police or anyone else good luck. A person writing a "magical" letter of any kind would easily write "Good luck" in such a letter. The use of those words, in terms of probability, is highly significant, particularly if taken together with the other clues and symbolism found in the letter. As another example, I believe the letter writer was saying in effect, 'the police are not clever, I am clever'. He then proceeds to use numerous double meanings and leave various clues as any highly sick individual who wanted to show their superiority might do in such a letter. So when he writes that the police are on the wrong track when searching for a lone killer like Leather Apron, and does so by underlining right in 'right track', I believe a case could be made for black magical symbolism again, along the lines of 'left-hand path', etc. However, in terms of probability, that argument is hard to prove. So why bother. Not so with the use of the words "Good luck". I believe, that no matter how frequently we, as people, use that expression in our daily lives, putting it in THAT letter, was very important and not a coincidence. One other point about probability and likelihood. When the letter writer says you will hear of him and his funny little games, this demonstrates the letter writer's confidence in his knowledge that something soon was going to happen. Someone not connected to the murders could never have such confidence. He would have been merely guessing. But then, not only do you have the resumption of the murders as warned, but you have examples of 'funny little games' with the locking of the loft and outhouse doors, which relate directly to the "Jack" in Jack Sheppard mythology. And of course they do the same thing in Mary Kelly's room. Coincidence? For me, the probability is extremely unlikely. Rob
Author: Bob Hinton Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 01:44 pm
Dear Rob, Thank you for your reply. I also do not wish to be rude that is why I am so happy to have discovered these little chappies First of all I notice that you haven't answered my question about the horns ie if someone wanted to draw horns why didn't he? Simple question. Secondly you seem to be making a common error of stating something and then accepting it as fact and expecting other people to also accept it as fact. You talk about Hutchinsons description as backing up your theory and yet do not consider the very real liklyhood that he made the entire description up. Far from you assertion that the description "was not likely to have come from his wild imagination" given the very brief time he had to make the observation 1 or 2 seconds at the most in very bad light conditions it is most likely that the description came from his imagination. As for the various items of clothing, coats, horseshoe pins denoting magicians I find this faintly ludicrous. In Melvyn Faircloughs book there is a photo of Lord Randolph Churchill wearing a coat with an astrakahn collar, as far as I know he was neither an actor or a magician. There are many photos of Neil Cream wearing a horseshoe tiepin the same goes for him and my wife wears a red stone seal on a chain around her neck, and although I find her most bewitching I really wouldn't call her a magician! (Since she has been known to stick six rounds from a .357 through the same hole at 25 yards it's not really wise to call her anything derogatory!) You must accept that these items were standard dress of the time - if as you maintain they are also the uniform of the magician why weren't they being worn in the 1600's or in the 1950's for that matter - presumably magicians were around during those times? You fall into the same trap time and time again. "After all, the killer of Annie Chapman did display surgical skill" Really. Many authorities would give you an argument on that. "Casting a spell is known as a job" So is doing a piece of work and so also is defecating. To rely on one possible explanation without admitting that it is only one of many many explanations is treading on thin ice. You keep going on about ginger beer being an anti coagulant. I'm not sure what the composition of ginger beer was in the 1880's but its not relevant. Nowhere does the author state he mixed ginger beer with the blood - only that he kept it in a ginger beer bottle. And yet you have leapt to this conclusion and use it as a main plank of your argument, again reading something into the account that would bolster your theory without any basis in fact. By the way my mother once wrote me a brief note when I was about to meet the nasty stuff for the first time - she wished me Good luck, does that make her a magician too? You look at certain things and can only see magic and magicians, other people look at the same thing and see nothing of the sort. If you want to put your case you will have to come up with something a bit more solid than conclusions based on assertions which are far from accepted as fact! good luck (Oh bugger I've just turned into a toad!) Bob Hinton
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 04:17 pm
Dear Mr Maloney, At the first hurdle...you refused to jump!So, I take it that you have your own idiosyncratic way of explaining yourself to the other posters. What about defining your usage of the term "Hex-meister"? What, with "runes" and "Hex-meisters",is it any wonder that posters find it difficult to follow you unless you define your terms and state your sources more clearly. Thanking you. Rosemary O'Ryan.
Author: Robert Maloney Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 07:02 pm
Mr. Hinton, Obviously you do not understand many of the points I have attempted to make. First, as I have written before, the evidence of black magic practice by the killers exists in the totality of the the clues. Not individually, as I have clearly stated. If you plan to make an argument that I am implying writing "Good luck" means the killers were black magicians, when I clearly stated those words were relevant in the context of the letter as a whole, or if you plan to make arguments similar to that, I will not waste any time replying to such nonsense. Generally speaking, your arguments are poorly reasoned and illogical. To say things like Hutchinson's man did not exist simply because he made it up, is not a very impressive form of argument, to say the least. Hutchinson, as I have argued before, was either a look out, or in some way associated with the killers. And he purposely gave the description he did an as example of "criminal flaunting", as that again relates to Jack Sheppard. Therefore, he had more than 2 seconds to arrive at his description. I do not expect, judging from what you have written thus far, that you will comprehend any of this. So do not expect a reply to any poorly reasoned response. Frankly, I do not have the time. Once again, in response to your "horn" question, the killers wanted the government and police to believe they were dealing with a lone killer of prostitutes who was 'down on them'. Not a group of killers practicing black magic for reasons of financial gain. Now having said that, the horns are quite clear to me, and should be, to anyone that knew to look for them. As far as Annie Chapman goes, and I truly can't believe I have to spend this much time on something as self evident as this, most experts think there was some surgical skill displayed in her mutilations and in some of the other murders. If you think finding and removing kidneys and wombs is that easy, that frankly wouldn't surprise me much. And to say that the composition of ginger beer is not relevant, when black magicians to this very day, use citric acid and sour salt when making an ink from blood, which is exactly what he was implying he tried to do but failed, is to be quite honest, moronic. As you can tell, I do not intend to have any further exchanges of this variety unless you upgrade your argument sir. Sorry for the rudeness again, flippancy does it to me every time. Rob
Author: Robert Maloney Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 07:53 pm
Hello Rosemary O'Ryan, Now Rosey, what exactly do you want me to tell you? The courses I have taken, the books and articles that I have read, the people I have spoken to and interviewed, the trials that I have attended and the internet sites that are relevant? I really have not avoided your question, I just don't know how to answer it exactly. Perhaps the best place to start is with a book on American folk magic, which of course has its roots in German folk magic and to some degree Romany-Gypsy folk magic. All of which involves the "Old Religion" mixed with Christianity, and also involves the so-called magical texts attributed to Moses. These would include The Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses and The Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth Book of Moses. These were the texts supposedly used by Hex-master Doctors. I am reluctant to name any particular book but will do so if I can locate a good all purpose one. Needless to say, no one book will cover all these areas, particularly those that relate directly to black magic practice. But the information is out there, and you can find it, trust me. It is true, however, that few people would be willing to discuss this for obvious reasons and that is why it is going to be difficult to put this all together. Rob
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 08:27 pm
Dear Mr Maloney, Hmm. Moses, American folk magic and Romany gypsie culture.(Not forgetting Old Norse philology.)Well Robert, you sure have me stumped! Rosey :-)
Author: Robert Maloney Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 07:55 am
Hi Rosey, Why? :-) or is that Y? That sure looks like elk horns to me. Good luck Rob
Author: Bob Hinton Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 02:24 pm
Dear Rob, (call me Bob by the way) I don't go in for personal abuse myself but hey if it fills your pen - dig out my friend. Now if you've finished kicking your toys out of the pram can we get back to the matter at hand? All your huffing and puffing has not disguised the fact that you still have yet to answer a single one of my questions - the answers to which which greatly assist me and others to understand what the h..l you are talking about! All your wittering on about horns being a trick by the killers etc etc.... the question is a very simple one. If someone wished to draw runic horns on the postcard to protect it - why didn't they do just that - draw a set of horns? If there are any words you don't understand just ask. I have said that you state things which only you believe to be true and then expect everyone else to accept them as fact without one iota of proof. Your ramblings make my case better than I ever could. To take Hutchinson. You say that my statements are 'poorly reasoned and illogical' and then go on to assert that 'Hutchinson was either a look out or associated with the killers' Can you please tell me what you base that on? Again a simple question. You then launch yourself again into troubled waters by saying 'most experts think there was some surgical skill displayed.....' Again I ask you What experts? There is at very best a considerable disagreement about this and at worst the concensus of opinion seems to favour no skill. You say my comments about the ginger beer are 'moronic' but again I ask you to tell us where the author of the letter stated he was going to or intended to mix blood with ginger beer? Nowhere does it say this. The only connection is the author of the Dear Boss letter stating he tried to keep some of the red stuff in a GINGER BEER BOTTLE. If you do not appreciate the difference between a bottle and its contents remind me to never accept a drink from you! If you have any answers to my perfectly reasonable questions then please let us hear them. If you just intend holding your breath until you turn blue if we don't all fall at your feet worshipping your sagacity - then at least wait until I find a stop watch good luck Bob Hinton
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 04:15 pm
Dear Robert, I can only add to the above...I have not read any of Moses's Book(s),( and none of Bob Dylan's, either). Do you have the publisher or IBN for Moses? Rosey :-)
Author: Robert Maloney Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 04:15 pm
Mr Hinton, My theory is the murders were black magic ritual killings. The motive was financial gain. And the "Jack" in the name Jack the Ripper referred to their criminal idol Jack Sheppard. I believe the 'Dear Boss' letter was the type of letter written by someone who believed that they were justified in using black magic for personal gain. There are numerous clues in the letter suggesting just this. When the author writes "I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with but it went thick like glue and I cant use it. Red ink is fit enough I hope ha. ha.", he is clearly implying that he intended to write the letter with something other than red ink. Blood will become thick like glue if an anti-coagulant is not used to prevent this from happening. Sour salt, citric Acid is the anti-coagulant used these days for this purpose. My point is not that he wanted to mix blood with ginger beer. The only point I am trying to make is that the writer was implying that he wanted to write the letter in the blood that evidently had coagulated. And by writing that 'red ink is fit enough', we have enough evidence to suggest that this letter was written to serve a black magic purpose and clearly he hoped red ink would be fit enough for that purpose. Folk magicians will often write their spells in red ink. Those that use ink for summoning purposes will sometimes use an ink made from blood. The emphasis is not on GINGER BEER BOTTLES, it is on the blood he had intended to write with. There is additional clues that this was a spell. Spells sometimes have a time component. There is an indication that part of the letter was written with the hope that something would happen. When it did not, he wrote, "wasnt good enough to post this before I got all the red ink off my hands curse it No luck yet. They say I'm a doctor now ha ha". This suggests there was a time component to the spell and when he switched to something other than ink, either crayon or something more proper, we can infer from that, the red ink wasn't fit enough after all. Rob
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 05:10 pm
Dear Robert, A Ripper researcher named Ivor Edwards is about to publish a book on Jack the Magician...all about black magic ritual killings in the East End during 1888.Order your copy now! Rosey :-)
Author: Robert Maloney Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 05:45 pm
Mr Hinton, When you write, "The only connection is the author of the Dear Boss letter stating he tried to keep some of the red stuff in a GINGER BEER BOTTLE.", you have made huge error in deduction. The letter writer clearly states he saved the proper red stuff from the last murder in a ginger beer bottle TO WRITE WITH!!! Now, for the last time, I am not going to debate these points if you can not even meet the minimum standards of argument. It is just too time consuming and energy wasting. I hope you understand what I am saying. You are so anxious to disagree with me, you are not thinking before you write. The horns, Hutchinson, and Annie Chapman, are either self-evident points or debatable points. They are not make or break theory points. I think the runic protection symbol, Algiz, is on the Saucy Jacky postcard - you do not. I think it is self-evident that taking body parts from a person shows medical knowledge - you do not. I also believe that Hutchinson's statement contains, for the most part, the truth, and you do not. However, on the last point, I find it a bit odd that anyone could read Hutchinson's statement and not recognize the verbal and descriptive nuance so necessary when looking for the truth. From the important details in his description of the man seen with Mary Kelly, to the subtle verbal clues contained in her comments as well as the foreign man's accented 'you will be alright, for what I have told you'. All of which add up to a balance weighted far more heavily in favor of his statement being truthful while still taking into account the story's "staged" or "theatrical" elements. ('He then pulled his hankerchief a red one and gave it to her') And Mr. Hinton, how anyone can deduce from the lighting on the street, of which no one alive today can be sure of, that a man must then be lying, and then deduce from that, that such a man must then be Jack the Ripper, is truly beyond me. Rob
Author: Robert Maloney Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 06:08 pm
Hi Rosey, What is Mr. Edwards basic theory if you can tell me? Sounds interesting though. Are there any Hex-master Doctors in the opening act? The black magic killers club is very inclusive. Anyone can join. Tumblety, Kosminski, Isaacs, Hyams, even the man with the American hat. For fun, check out what you get when you type in Blackfriars bridge ( thanks to Chris George for this one) in the wonderful press reports search engine here at the Casebook. Remember if someone wanted to summon the spirit of Jack Sheppard they might have gone to Blackfriars bridge to do it. Rob
Author: Bob Hinton Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 07:57 pm
Dear Rob, You really must stop trying to deflect attention away from the incompleteness of your case by getting all het up and huffing and puffing. Take a deep breath and just answer a few simple questions. You will find these on my previous posts. You say in your latest point 'My point is not that he wanted to mix blood with ginger beer'. But that is exactly the point you have been making and remaking by wittering on about ginger beer containing citric acid and sour salt and thus is suitable for an anitcoagulant. My very valid point is that the author did not mention anything about mixing blood with ginger beer! I do realise that his intention was to write the letter in blood but this was thwarted by coagulation - we all do. You then go on to say 'by writing that 'red ink is fit enough' we have enough evidence to suggest that his letter was written to serve a black magic purpose'. Have you any conception of what evidence is? If so can you explain how those few words constitute evidence. 'Folk magicians will often write their spells in red ink'. Perhaps so but there are thousands of people who use red ink who are not magicians. Today I saw a day book of a police officer in 1875 completed in red ink - so what, that doesn't make him an accountant because sometimes accountants use red ink. You accuse me of making a huge error in deduction when I say the only connection with the author and ginger beer is that he mentions a ginger beer bottle. That isn't a deduction - that is a fact. I appreciate facts are such rare visitors to you that you failed to recognise one but there you are. We all know the author wanted us to believe he wished to write in blood - he says so in the letter - that also is a fact, its only you who have constantly banged on about mixing blood with ginger beer something that is NOT in the letter. Your process of reasoning is flawed to an incredible degree. You state 'I think it is self evident that taking body parts from a person shows medical knowledge' What utter tosh. Many serial killers remove body parts from their victims, a minute proportion of these have medical knowledge. Richard Trenton Chase, Geoffrey Dahmer, Ed Gein, Dennis Nilsen and so on and so on. You are correct in stating I do not believe Hutchinsons statement to be true and I have listed the various reasons (elsewhere) why I believe that. When people have asked me about my beliefs I am always ready to give an answer. You are not. You believe that merely stating Hutchinson was either a look out or in some way associated with the killers makes it so - it doesn't. Stop trying to hide behind a barrage of personal remarks and a prima donna attitude and tell us straight what you believe and why you believe it. And then tell us what you have in the way of evidence to back up your theories. I notice looking back it's not only my questions you don't want to answer. good luck Bob Hinton
Author: Robert Maloney Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 10:28 pm
Mr Hinton, I repeat, you wrote, "The only connection is the author of the Dear Boss letter stating he tried to keep some of the red stuff in a GINGER BEER BOTTLE." You might want to ignore this mistake but I'm afraid I am not going to. You purposely did not point out as I have that he wanted to write the letter in blood, but because it coagulated, he had to settle on red ink which he hoped would be fit enough for the purpose he had in mind. A psycholinguistic analysis of this part of the letter suggests strongly, by understanding that folk magicians write spells in red ink and black magicians write them in blood, that the purpose involved black magic practice. This is bolstered by the supporting evidence of sour salt, citric acid acting as an anti-coagulant and the implication of the timing component inherent in the letter. The underlining of the power shade red, the use of the words clip and ripper, and writing good luck are other clues that point in the same direction. If you do not understand how this all comes together that does not surprise me as it is coming from a man that argues for Hutchinson as Jack the Ripper. And that is perhaps the worst theory I am aware of. The type of arguments you continue to make - that someone once wrote in red ink 200 years ago, therefore such and such - are not only weak - they are embarrassing. The letter, in my opinion, will one day be recognized as a black magic money spell by future students of the case. I believe that I have answered every relevant question about this theory that has been asked of me. People are free to re-ask them if I somehow overlooked them. I really don't know how to say this to you without somehow being insulting, but you seem incapable of seeing the big picture. If he never mentioned ginger beer I would argue the same points minus one supporting piece of information. But I will grant you one point you made that you are right about. When I wrote that taking body parts showed medical knowledge I believe that was essentially correct. But of course we are not talking about knowledge. The men you mentioned had knowledge, but not likely any skill. I believe at least one of the killers in this case showed skill and knowledge. He would be the person I believe was responsible for the black magic elements - the so called Hex-master Doctor. In the United States, he would serve the purpose of removing and casting hexes and performing surgery as well. In this case, as I am arguing that he was initiating the other killers in the black arts, it is possible he was not the only killer to use the knife. So therefore, there would be a range of skill shown from killing to killing. In any case, we could argue forever over whether there was skill or not or if there were horns/runes etc. I prefer to stay away from these time consuming and useless arguments. If I argue that the horns and deerstalker hats were used as a form of magic protection, you can freely accept or reject these parts of the theory. There is a considerable amount of evidence pointing in the direction of black magic involvement with Jack Sheppard as the inspiration, and it may take a long time, but one day I believe it will be accepted as a very strong theory. Rob
Author: Christopher T George Friday, 27 July 2001 - 01:20 am
Hi Rob: I believe Bob Hinton is right. The writer of the letter is talking about keeping blood in an empty ginger beer bottle. You may or may not know that a number of empty ginger beer bottles were found in a cupboard in Mary Jane Kelly's room. Probably unconnected to the letter but interesting to note nevertheless. Best regards Chris George
Author: R.J. Palmer Friday, 27 July 2001 - 03:11 am
Chris--Maybe that's where Mary got the name Ginger?
Author: Caroline Anne Morris Friday, 27 July 2001 - 05:55 am
Hi Rob, One small point, which I'm having trouble with here. Are you saying you think the writer of Dear Boss tried to make a suitable ink from blood, using the ginger beer, for its anti-coagulant properties, to make his spell more potent? He wrote that the blood went thick like glue so he couldn't use it. Does this suggest to you that the ginger beer didn't work, or that he never intended to try it in the first place? And if the latter, why not? Love, Caz
Author: Caroline Anne Morris Friday, 27 July 2001 - 06:30 am
Rob, I forgot to add that I find your theory fascinating - not so much because of the black magic stuff, but I think your idea that Jack Sheppard inspired the JtR murders is inspired in itself - and highly original. It may well be a common trait among certain criminal minds to see former notorious figures as role models, hero-worshipping them and trying to emulate the derring-do of their crimes. This in itself is a perfectly reasonable idea. Good luck with proving it! Have a great weekend all. Love, Caz
Author: Robert Maloney Friday, 27 July 2001 - 07:55 am
Hi Caz and Chris, You are right Caz when you say 'suitable'. The words 'proper red stuff' might very well mean he had the blood ink already mixed because you only need a few drops of Citric acid, so for all intents and purposes, the ginger beer bottle would have been near empty. That is why he says ginger beer bottle and not ginger beer. I had incorrectly assumed people would know he did not mean that he mixed blood with the the full contents of a ginger beer bottle. Sorry for that misunderstanding. Only a few drops would be needed and so the bottle would probably be what we would consider empty. So in answer to your question, I believe that he did intend to write with the blood to make the spell more potent. And for some reason, due to an improper mixture, it went thick like glue. Let me reiterate just one point. When he says 'proper red stuff' combined with 'Red ink is fit enough I hope ha ha', these two sentences form a very strong black magic relationship. Because what he is saying is that 'blood would be more potent and is the proper method, but we magicians use red ink all the time and I am hoping it will be good enough for this purpose'. To me, this conclusion is unavoidable. What do you think Caz? I would like to hear your opinion on this. And thank you for your comments. I appreciate them very much. And Chris, thank you for the Blackfriars bridge info. Did you see what you get if you do a press report search? Kind of interesting, don't you think? Rob
Author: John Omlor Friday, 27 July 2001 - 07:59 am
Goofy question, everyone, Is Ginger Beer anything like Ginger Ale? Is it an alcoholic drink? I know I should know this. But I don't. Thanks, --John (who drinks Canada Dry Ginger Ale all the time but has never tried mixing it with his own blood or the blood of strangers or the blood of our Lord or anyone's blood for that matter....)
Author: Robert Maloney Friday, 27 July 2001 - 08:06 am
Hey John, where have you been? I've been waiting for you. Rob
Author: John Omlor Friday, 27 July 2001 - 08:17 am
OK Rob, that's a little frightening. I'm always here. But the part of me that talks is usually over on the diary boards figuring out what it is we don't know. But I honestly don't know exactly what Ginger Beer is. Do people still drink it? And, since I'm here, Rob, aren't there lots of other sorts of murderer and fiendish types, besides black magicians, who might think of saving some blood with which to write the police or media letters or eat their dinner or paint their apartment or write stuff on walls or feed to their giant flesh-eating flowers that sing or whatever? Also, because I really do not know this, either, would an 1888 newspaper reading audience, seeing the name "Jack the Ripper," have thought of Jack Sheppard themselves? Would this have been a popular association with the name and theory for the crimes back then, do you think? Genuinely curious, --John
Author: Christopher T George Friday, 27 July 2001 - 08:51 am
Hi, John: Indeed, ginger beer is still a popular beverage in the United Kingdom. It is made, I believe, from ginger root and is a clear fizzy, nonalcoholic liquid with the appearance of 7-up. The taste of ginger is more marked than in the yellow ginger ale with which Statesiders will be familiar. Ginger ale when I was growing up possessed the tag of being "American" while ginger beer is British, though I have also seen some of it that was manufactured in Jamaica. As Bob Hinton mentioned, the ginger beer bottle of Jack's day would have been a stoneware bottle with a narrow neck, not a glass bottle. Best regards Chris George
Author: Robert Maloney Friday, 27 July 2001 - 09:02 am
Hi John, Yes, I think that is possible that in 1888 people would connect the name to Jack Sheppard. In fact, a part of the case I have not gotten into yet involves the "theatrical" component to this story. The "actor" connection if you will. This part is very interesting as it helps us to understand why some of these men idolized Jack Sheppard. Furthermore, this is why he, or they, wrote "funny little games" and then went on to lock the various doors they did from the inside. Sheppards fame came more from his ability as an escape artist than from his exploits as a thief. But then we will have to re-name the thread once again I guess. ( Is it staying on-topic if I write that black magic and vindictiveness are equally reprehensible? - just a thought) Mr. Omlor, if you were to read the Jack Sheppard story, from Jack Sheppard, The Complete Newgate Calendar, and place it side by side with many of the events that we know in the Ripper murders, the ritual elements of the case become very clear. But it is important to know many of the intimate details of the Ripper murders for this to become clear. From Isaacs (who was a major suspect) stealing the watch and then getting arrested near Drury Lane. To the longgreat coat man near the chandler's shop to the drunken or tipsy "Jack", to the locked doors at the various sites, to the items left at the scenes of the murders with the victims, to the method used to kill the prostitutes and Sheppards own recipe for saving his life after being hanged, to the prostitutes themselves being from Spitalfields and Sheppard being from Spitalfields and his popularity with prostitutes, to the reason certain words were chosen in "Dear Boss" and several other "coincidences" . By the way, have you ever heard Led Zeppelin's Achilles Last Stand? Just curious. Rob
Author: John Omlor Friday, 27 July 2001 - 09:09 am
I don't think so, Rob. At least not that I can recall off the top of my head. The album with "Stairway..." on it was the last one I bought. "been a long time since I rock-and-rolled...." --John PS: Thanks, Chris. At EPCOT, Coke has a soft-drinks-of-the-world pavilion (Ice Station something or other) where customers can go in and get free samples of soda from around the world. In there they have a sort of ginger-ale concoction from Mozambique that is absolutely to die for. I get three or four samples every time I go. It's the best soda I've ever had. Seriously. Check it out next time you are at EPCOT (or in Mozambique, I suppose). Now thinking about Yaz and another Dylan song... --John
Author: Robert Maloney Friday, 27 July 2001 - 09:33 am
Sorry John, I missed the earlier part of your question. Of course other types of killers could write with blood. But in total, there are too many American/German folk/black magic references. The basic power shades of these magicians are red and white. Red was underlined. They usually keep with them clippers and rippers. (He said 'clip', not slice) They write their spells in red ink and blood. The letter was in ink and some other substance. They end their letters with "Good luck". The inherent time component to the letter, indicating he wished something would happen (a government reward) When it didn't - he wrote 'curse it No luck yet.' Spells have time components to them. The double meanings of 'job' and 'work' which mean in magic, spell and craftwork. The implications that he was hired to do these spells by saying the 'next job I do'. In the United States these men, who performed surgery as well as cast evil spells were known as Hex-master Doctors. 'They say I'm a doctor now ha ha.' Rob