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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through June 26, 2001
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: General Topics:
Robert Maloney's Theory:
Archive through June 26, 2001
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Sunday, 24 June 2001 - 05:38 pm |        | Dear Yaz,
Forgive my interruption at this point in your cogent reply to Mr Maloney....he is seeking an answer from the signs and symbols that are ever present to men...at all times and in all places.
Whether he be hunter or gatherer...or Metropolitan detective, they are all about that same Universal salvage operation, quaintly termed "deduction". The reconstitution of an individual's consciousness is an impossibility,
however, the good author of a tale is capable of suspending our belief in the improbable... long enough to enjoy the 'experience'engendered in the telling of it.
If we are to agree that Jack did not murder this
particular class of women for financial gain or sex, we are left to conclude he had an obsessional
hatred for these women...or there is something we are overlooking-a visceral retelling of the tale.
Or my name ain't
Rosey O'Ryan :-) |
Author: The Viper
Sunday, 24 June 2001 - 06:51 pm | | Rob,
My statements about the witness testimony are self-explanatory and there is no need to expand on them. The two people most likely to have seen the murderer didn’t get a good, reliable sighting. The fact that you describe the range of sightings as ‘staggering’ is only another indication as far as I’m concerned that the witness testimony is not to be relied upon. The witnesses were either not memorising the details accurately or they were describing different men. In the case of Long and Lawende is the timing of the siting is sufficiently close to make it probable that they saw the murderer.
We are here looking at serial murders (that is those where there are three or more victims, each murdered separately) where the victims have been selected from one sex. No, I don’t have statistics to hand showing that most serial murderers are lone operators, but try this… Consider murders of the above description and compile two lists of convicted killers; those who murdered acting alone and those who shared in, or who had accomplices to the act. There have been precious few of the Fred and Rose West type.
It should go without saying that where a series of crimes has gone unsolved we can’t use the data to draw any inference about the perpetrator(s). Yes, you might argue that these cases weren’t solved because they involved more than one man, but then you might argue 101 other things about these cases as well. (For instance, that the murders went unsolved because a disproportionate number of the killers committed suicide). It is purely hypothesizing.
The more links there are in a chain the more potential weaknesses it has. You bring up a wider mention of crime mentioning specifically organised crime. Have you ever wondered why the ultimate organised criminals, namely dedicated terrorists, so often rely on the cell system for their operations?
Take the Canonical Five and there is no good evidence for a multiple murderer theory in the cases of Nichols, Chapman or Eddowes. Where are the descriptions of suspicious men seen together, or evidence of two persons inflicting their wounds? These are the core victims that just about everyone accepts.
There is a better case with Mary Kelly. The Home Secretary believed that her murder specifically justified the pardon notice. Plus we have Sarah Lewis’ testimony of a man hanging about at the end of Miller’s Court. But since Kelly’s time of death is disputed hotly, it cannot be assumed that the man concerned (whether it was Hutchinson or not) was a killer’s accomplice, waiting for him to reappear and keeping watch. No other suspicious man was seen in the vicinity at the same time. Only in the case of Liz Stride’s murder does the two-man solution merit detailed consideration. Immediately though we come back to another long-running debate, namely whether the man who killed her was the Ripper. Opinion is split down the middle on that one. Inevitably, those who think this was not a Ripper murder will dismiss your scenario – I’m afraid that’s just one of those hazards of drawing any conclusions from Stride’s murder.
Regards, V. |
Author: Robert Maloney
Sunday, 24 June 2001 - 11:20 pm | | Hi Diana,
The answer to your question is, yes that is possible. But I don't think so for this reason. When I read 'Dear Boss' and recognized it as a black magic spell, I began to look at the case from that perspective. In other words, I would look for signs of rituals and anything else you might expect to find if this was a case involving black magic. To be honest, there are so many examples demonstrating this, that I do not believe it can be explained away by pure chance. Let me give an example of what I'm arguing. The 'saucy Jacky' postcard and 'Dear Boss' are most definitely linked. Now 'Dear Boss' has black magic references with red ink and the implication he was trying to make an ink made from blood. So if you were a black magician, who wanted to get the 'saucy Jacky' postcard through the mail as fast and safely as possible, you might inscribe the Rune Algiz (which has the shape of antlers or horns) on it symbolizing protection. So if you look at the postcard, and you know what you are looking for, the antlers will jump right off the page at you. (while others will say this is a coincidence, I find this highly improbable) Next, if you are trying to link the letters to the killings, all you need to do is read the 'saucy Jacky' postcard. The writer gets every single detail of the murder correct. People have tried to argue that a journalist could have gotten the details from the police. There are many things wrong with this argument. First, this suggests that it would have been easy to get ALL the details from the police. And then that he could have gotten all the CORRECT details. (I gave you the tip about the murders, you will hear about it tomorrow, double event, number one squealed a bit, couldn't finish straight off, had not time to get ears) That is alot of information to get correct for someone who didn't commit the murders. And lets be frank, the journalists of the day were just not this accurate. The 'saucy Jacky' postcard was written by the killers and the 'Dear Boss' writer wrote 'saucy Jacky' so therefore the 'Dear Boss' writer was connected to the killers. And besides, why try to force a circle into a square. What evidence exists that these were NOT from the killers. The only thing we know is that the police suspected a journalist. So what? That wouldn't be good enough for us today so why should it be good enough for 1888? Imagine a major police force saying 'we THINK a journalist wrote these hideous and disgusting letters', an act that was most certainly a crime. And then doing nothing about it. That doesn't sound like alot of evidence to me. It might be worth making one final point about 'Dear Boss'. The writer threatens to "clip" the lady's ears off, not slice them off. And I think this is important when you consider that black or folk magicians kept clippers in their bible box. And a piece of her ear did fall off afterall. On the other point about the oval clots: As her hand was across her chest clutching her "rosary" beads, this type of Catholic symbolism is exactly what you might expect from someone who would say " you would say anything but your prayers".
Yazoo, "Glue" is a stage in the soap making process and those that made soap also made candles. Candles were made partly from tallow and tallow from parts of kidneys. As this is the only thing that related to my questions, it is the only thing I will respond to. Oh, and just because you would not find Jack Sheppard much of an idol is pretty meaningless, isn't it?
Viper, I enjoy debating with you. "All in good fun"
So Rosey, does this mean your name is Rosey or isn't Rosey?
Rob
I will not be around to "battle" tomorrow |
Author: Yazoo
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 01:26 am | | Hey Rob:
Okay. But I'll ask a third and last time (I did ask first after all) if you would please name the sources of your information on anything magickal.
Yaz |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 05:32 am | | Dear Rob,
I agree with Yaz...please supply your sources for your magical/folk-magic references where possible.
Roseate :-) |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 07:50 am | | | Viper--Hello. Your post touches on something that has caused me a little confusion. I too have felt that Matthews' pardon notice came specifically in reaction to the murder in Miller's Court --and maybe even specifically in regards to the Hutchinson character loitering around-- but I've since read (but I don't remember where, possibly in Martin Fido's book) that such pardon notices were often standard procedure when offering rewards of this type. Also, in September & October there had been a substantial amount of public outcry that rewards hadn't been offered [the Forman at the Nichols' inquest was particularly indignant on this point], so I wonder now whether Matthews' offer was a more or less a political move to silence any criticism that might have been expected to follow Kelly's ghastly murder, rather than as suggesting any particular "official" belief that an accomplice had been involved. [Or maybe it was just exhasperation on part of the Home Office!] Frankly, I don't know how to interpret it. Regards, RJP |
Author: John Omlor
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 09:33 am | | Hey Yazman,
You write: "These are the same silly folk beliefs that include meeting and bargaining with the devil at a crossroads."
Now, now, my brother, where do you think I learned to play the blues....
-- John
RIP John Lee Hooker |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 10:42 am | | Hi, Yaz and Viper:
I am glad to see that you have the same types of problems with Rob Maloney's theories that I expressed last week.
As John Omlor says, the set of symbols one chooses to see is subjective or as you say, Yaz, in regard to the runes, in the eye of the beholder.
We can be absurd about this and say in regard to Rob's idea that the murders had anything to do with the executed murderer Jack Shepherd, that a traditional English meal is Shepherd's Pie, and what is often baked in such pies but kidneys, exactly the item the killer extracted from a couple of his victims. Am I right that the killers wanted to make Shepherd's Pie using victims' kidneys? Well, probably not, but then I am probably as correct in promulgating such a theory as Rob in his which fits together such a long list of items that are probably just coincidence. Rob's theory depends on a host of people in London having the same belief system at the same moment in time, which is most unlikely. I gladly join you in asking Rob to name his sources.
Hi, Rob:
I would like to point out again the absurdity of your claim that the Saucy Jacky postcard "gets every single detail of [Stride's] murder correct." Are you saying, Rob, that in the scant words on that postcard every detail of the murder is given? Including that the murderer pulled her into the yard, that he cut her throat in which direction? was he in front of her or behind her? that she had cachous and perhaps grapes in her hand? etc. Where did the victim's rosary that you mention come from???? To my knowledge, Elizabeth Stride had none. She was a member of the Swedish church and as such I believe was Protestant and would have had no rosary.
In being so categorical in your statements, Rob, your own words conspire to defeat you.
In any case, as a number of Ripperologists have noted, the postcard could have been written after the basic facts of the murder were known. A journalist would certainly have known enough to have written about the victim squealing and the attempt to take the ears. Indeed, even if the writer were not a journalist, the Saucy Jacky postcard could have been written and posted on the morning of Monday, October 1 after the writer had read the details in the morning papers, there being at the time two postal deliveries in London a day so that a communication posted in the morning could reach its destination (the Central News Agency) in the afternoon.
Rob, Alegria is correct that you should be encouraged to post your theories here. However, I think you need to take better consideration of the realities and facts of 1888 London. If you do not do so, I believe that thoughtful students of the case such as Yaz, Viper, and myself will continue to have problems with your ideas.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 12:07 pm | | Indeed, John,
RIP John Lee Hooker, who sadly passed away just as I was ordering my front stalls tickets for Robert Cray next month here in Croydon (hubby wants little Caz to be close enough to feel his spit  ), where we have also been privileged to see the great B.B. King perform. The only disappointment was when Gary Moore came on stage but only stopped long enough to say hello!  (I've still got the blues about that.)
Love,
Caz |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 12:26 pm | | Hi, Caz:
I was in the front row of the Mechanic Theater here in Baltimore a few years ago close enough to feel the late great James Mason's spit while he performed in the role of a fiery sideshow evangelist. Does that count?  I am a big fan of John Lee Hooker, whose music I first learned about from following the Animals in the 1960s. This is sure dating me! I did see B. B. King perform on the same bill as the Rolling Stones at the tail end of the Sixties, as well as Muddy Waters on another occasion, but never John Lee Hooker. Also saw Eric Burdon of the Animals perform in a club in Virginia not too long ago. That was a wild night!!! I wonder how many hidden messages we can find in "The House of the Rising Sun. . ."? 
I hear it is oppressively hot in England right now. Erik says it is almost too hot to work on Jack--The Musical in Paris. Pity the poor tennis players at Wimbledon.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 12:34 pm | | | Ally, I hereby give you full permission in due course to remove my last post and (by proxy) Caz's, both of which have nothing whatever to do with Rob's theory. I trust you concur with this move, Caz. Thanks in advance. Maybe John Omlor would let Ally do the same with his blues post of Monday, June 25, 2001 - 09:33 am, though his was arguably somewhat more "on topic" than our follow-up messages. Bandwidth, guys! Bandwidth! |
Author: Yazoo
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 01:17 pm | | Hey All:
Yes, indeed, rest in peace, John Lee. I used to wait for the bus in front of a bar where he played back in the 60s in Detroit.
Trivia question: Was Robert Johnson the only blues musician who claimed to have sold his soul to the devil to play the blues? (Trick question, I believe.)
Rob's idea about John Sheppard does seem to have some small initial support based on the piece of folklore mentioned in the Newgate Calendar entry regarding Sheppard's supposed belief in escaping a broken neck (at worst) or strangulation (even worse if the hangman failed to meet the devil at the crossroads to learn his job!) via what I called the recipe for resurrection.
Obviously, the info about the recipe for resurrection did not come from Sheppard, who had other things on his mind once his knife was found on the way to the gallows. Where did the alternate motive for having the knife -- or at least the story generated by the presence of the knife -- come from; who believed it; are there any folk tales that state Sheppard's recipe actually worked; or any follow-up to the initial anecdote at all?
Rob supposes me to be an impatient, implacable enemy of his theory -- but I am not. However, I am in agreement with Chris, Rosey, and others about the need for documentary support for his ideas. I have given Rob ample time to answer my initial request under the Letters board. He needs to demonstrate where his symbology and his "reading" of the "signs" come from for me to consider his theory; that is, whether there are actually any magical "signs" or "symbols" to be found at all.
Yaz |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 01:29 pm | | Of course, Chris. (And this one.)
Love,
Caz |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 01:58 pm | | I have a few questions for you Robert , these may be important in proving the validity of your theory or not :
(i) In the mid-late 19th century , studies in Old Norse and the sagas were confined to the universities I believe , translations of the old works were being done by individual professors. Which begs the question - how did the killer find out about runes in the first place ?
(ii) What makes you think that runes have magical power anyway ? When I studied Icelandic in the 80's at London university opinion was still divided about whether the runes were thought to be magical , or whether they were just an alphabet. Granted , magical spells could be written in runic script but that doesn't make the letters themselves magical : the meanings you refer to for particular runes refer to their use in fortune telling , which is relatively modern.
Can you quote a 19th century text which states that runes had magical powers ?
(iii) Can you prove that runes were ever used in black magic spells or rituals or not in the 19th century ? I would have thought Latin would have been more appropriate , to mock the Christian Mass.
(iv) Its possible that Mary Kelly could have been the victim of a Black Mass , but why do we have no evidence of this in her room ?
Surely it would have been easier and safer to hire a prostitute and kidnap her somewhere where the proper rituals could have been employed ?
Simon |
Author: The Viper
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 02:51 pm | | Rob,
With respect to the pardon offered, the best indicator of official thinking may be the response by Home Secretary Matthews to a question raised in the House of Commons on Friday, 23rd November 1888.
Mr. Hunter (M.P., Aberdeen North) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he is prepared, in the case of the Whitechapel murders, other than that of the woman Kelly, to offer a free pardon to any person not being the actual perpetrator of the crimes?
The Secretary of State (Mr. Matthews) (Birmingham, E.): I should be quite prepared to offer a pardon in the earlier Whitechapel murders if the information before me had suggested that such an offer would assist in the detection of the murderer. In the case of Kelly there were certain circumstances which were wanting in the earlier cases, and which made it more probable that there were other persons who, at any rate after the crime, had assisted the murderer.
(taken from Hansard and transcribed in The Ultimate JTR Sourcebook, page 349).
Now that’s what Matthews said. Whether or not this is what he genuinely believed, or whether it was political maneuvering is another question. I have no strong view on that.
The issue of the reward would be entwined with the pardon in my view. Whether or not any reward money would actually have been paid to an accomplice turning Jack in, the authorities may have believed that the prospect of a reward would encourage such a person to come forward.
Regards, V. |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Monday, 25 June 2001 - 09:52 pm | | | Viper--Thanks for the above. I've been scouring the Ultimate Sourcebook (but in a rather haphazard fashion) and had missed this interesting quote. By the way, enjoyed your dissertation on Joe Barnett. Great stuff. RP |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 07:19 am | | Hello everyone,
It is early and I will answer all the questions later. But first, I must reply to Chris George. You appear to be the only one who consistently misunderstands almost everything I write. Now having said that, I agree with you that it would have been better had I written that every detail given was correct, rather than the way I worded it, but I think most people will understand that I wasn't implying that he gave EVERY detail of the murder in the postcard. (this is why I don't write at night if I can help it) Your argument suggests to me that you do not have a firm grip on the role that probability and chance would play in the act of gathering information and details involving TWO different murder sites and TWO different jurisdictions. Getting each detail correct that he gave us is to me, highly improbable without inside knowledge. (could it happen? - of course - just unlikely) As an example, consider the difference in details between the police account of Israel Schwartz' statement and the newspaper account. For the purpose of this argument they are not at all the same. It takes time during investigations to sort out all the details. Saucy Jacky was confident and correct. And just to be clear again, I am not saying that a journalist could not have been involved with the murders. Just that the letters could not have been written by a journalist UNCONNECTED with the murders.
As to the rosary beads: I wrote that oval shaped blood clots on a hand placed purposely across the chest is Catholic symbolism for cluthing rosary beads. And that this ties in perfectly with someone who might say "you would say anything but your prayers". And just to be annoying: Rosary = a son of a carpenter and Jack Sheppard was - thats right - a son of a carpenter.
I couldn't help it. And Chris, the arguments you keep raising are not the ones likely to "defeat me" as you put it. But in the best interest of the Casebook, I think we should enter into a truce. I must have said something awful if you feel the need to keep looking at everything with a magnifying glass. So if I did say something, I am sorry. You shouldn't have taken it personally, it is just the way I am.
Yazoo and Rosey, The irony of you two posting side by side wasn't lost on me. |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 09:45 am | | Simon,
Regarding Runes, there are Nordic, Celtic and German. For various reasons, I am focusing on German. They were definitely used as part of a magical system in folk practices for health and other purposes. This knowledge would have been possessed by people long before 1888. And to inscribe a Rune on a wall or in the air above a person fits perfectly with all the information regarding their usage. Remember, I believe that the magician who wrote, or helped write, or inspired the 'Dear Boss' letter and took part in initiating others during the murders, was most likely very well educated, and possibly a doctor in addition to being a hex-master doctor. That is why there was surgical skill shown in at least one murder but not all the murders. This explains why a "hacker" with no skill could still find a kidney etc. while displaying no practical surgical skill. Because he was being taught. To me this explains one of the big mysteries in the case. The range of surgical skill differences. "They say I'm a doctor now ha ha". And getting back to the point, these men were black magicians for hire. Just as there were gunmen for hire in 1888 in the US, there were black magicians for hire. And of course, I believe that the black magician in this story was an American even if the evidence for this is not overwhelming. The 'Dear Boss' letter has Americanisms and contains at times, an American rhythm to the wording. The American hat, the American speech pattern as told by Packer, the American oilcloth mentioned by Hutchinson are small bits of evidence. There is something that I am researching now which could also point in this direction and I'll post it if anything comes of it. Now I hate to keep harping on this one point, but I believe that the Elk/antler/horns protection Rune Algiz was inscribed on the 'saucy Jacky' postcard to help get it through the postal system. When this is combined with the possibility of Runes on Mary Kelly's wall, Runes that have interpretations directly applicable to this story, and then add to that the much more difficult to prove theory that deerstalker hats were used to symbolize the same Rune Algiz (which is used to protect you against backfiring magical work), you have for me anyway a fairly strong argument that Runes were being used here. And again, this would not have been at all unheard of in 1888, and yes for magical purposes as well. This is one of the reasons that the Catholic symbolism ( oval shaped clots etc.) makes sense to me. These people were bastardizing all the religions for their own purposes.
Now about Mary Kelly, I am not necessarily suggesting a name for the Mass but rather pointing out important details about her room and the way she was found. While Mary may have been a common name we cannot ignore the symbolic possibilities as she was a women who represented "whoredom" and her slight dress obviously meant to incite lust and underscore her debauchery. Even the pictures present an alter like feel and of course there was the raging fire. And as the pictures so graphically suggest, maybe some of her flesh was consumed. Finally, after considering all of this, and the fact that Joseph Isaacs stayed in Little Paternoster Row before the murder (which has importance for its name) with various instruments in his room, (in particular a fiddle) the ceremonial, ritualistic, and magical elements of this murder, I believe, can hardly be ignored.
Rob |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 09:50 am | | Dear Rob,
Irony? More likely a transistional stage between
my Red Biddy and Scrumpy Jack...the former depletes my red blood corpusles whilst the latter
furnishes my appetite.
O Ryse Witherspoon :-) |
Author: Yazoo
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 10:26 am | | Hey Rob:
Schwartz' summarized statement is different from the newspaper account; and not just for argumentative purposes. The two, IMHO, should not be used syncratically else we may fall into grievous error.
As to the letters and postcards, I'll leave the matter of postmarks and dates, and how much singular detail would or would not have been in the earliest editions of the papers reporting the murders to Chris. There was never anything to go on in that line of thought, IMHO.
(And as John Omlor once pointed out about statistics in another context, you need to know all the variables to calculate any rational probabilities. We don't know all the variables...meaning who and how many knew what and when...including journalists connected or unconnected, whatever that means, with the murders.)
And if those arguments fail to convince you, look into the other letters that are allegedly written in the same handwriting as the "Dear Boss" letter and card. I say alleged because I am not a handwriting expert and trust those who have this knowledge. The writer never really seems to be controlling events he describes (possessing precise enough knowledge; able to carry out what he says; etc.) and eventually becomes more than a bit unhinged
A rosary = a son of a carpenter? Where did you get that one?
Literally, a rosary means a rose garden; in religious allegory it means the string of beads used to count "The Lord's Prayers" and "Ave Maries."
A rosary was/is also used as a metaphoric journey of the Stations of the Cross (a use made by the Roman-Catholic church, at least when I was young and had no say in how I spent my Sunday mornings). Here's how I remember it working: you say your prayers in the steps of Jesus' last journey (Ave Maries equal steps; Lord's Prayers equal the so-called Stations of the Cross where Jesus supposedly stopped for some reason, long forgotten at least by heathen me).
I think the rosary is solely used by Roman Catholics -- but maybe Eastern Orthodox as well. Rosaries are not, unless someone knows otherwise, used by Anglicans and other Protestant faiths. Moslems also use prayer beads; though they are not called rosaries.
(This "rosary" allusion would tell me that your magic-killer is also possibly a lapsed Roman-Catholic in a largely Protestant country, as well as a Sheppard fan. But the killer could just as equally have been a lapsed Moslem -- not impossible in London's Age of Victorian Empire.)
The irony of Rosemary and I posting "side by side" is, however, lost on me.
Yaz |
Author: Yazoo
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 10:37 am | | Hey Rob:
Also, "Boss" is not an Americanism. Look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary...not in the wit and wisdom of A. Conan Doyle cuz he was wrong. I'm sure Chris told you that too.
Yaz
P.S., Ooo, voodoo strikes again. Rosemary and I posted one after the other again! |
Author: Yazoo
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 10:50 am | | Correction on rosaries:
According to A Dictionary for Episcopalians by John N. Wall, Cowley Publications, 2000:
rosary: Devotional aid associated with the Blessed Virgin Mary. [my emphasis] Although not widely used in the Episcopal Church, some Episcopalians find it an important part of their spiritual lives...A complete saying of the rosary involves fifteen repetitions of the basic unit [Hail, Mary and Lord's Prayer -- it's me again], five devoted to the joys, five to the sorrows, and five to the glories of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
---------------
Still no rosary = son of a carpenter though. But, hey, I was wrong about Episcopalians!
Aren't Episcopalians (American version) the same as Anglicans (English version)? So would this definition fit the Anglicans as well?
Yaz
P.S., Do I win the "Jack"pot (sorry, bad pun) if I post three times in a row? |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 11:26 am | | Yazoo,
Sensing that you have some familiarity with folk magic, would you agree with me that the way some folk magicians determine the success or failure of a spell is often times through small symbolic "tests"? For example, lets say a women wanted to cast a spell in an attempt to drive away a girl named Mary who was paying too much attention to her boyfriend. And after she casts the spell she turns on the radio and the song "Along comes Mary" is playing. Wouldn't she believe this was a sign of failure for her spell?
Now if you agree with me or not, consider this. Lets say they were sacrificing the prostitutes (near gateways to help them pass thru to the otherworld - and all from Spitalfields as was Sheppard) for Jack Sheppard because as you now know he was very popular with prostitutes. Now if Isaacs wanted to "test" to see if he had succeeded in invoking the guardian spirit of his idol, might he not test this spell by doing something that Jack Sheppard had done, like stealing a watch and running away. Exactly as Sheppard had done and as Isaacs had probably read about many times. Because as you must have read, Sheppard was very, very, famous, particularly in the Drury Lane area. Now if this is just a coincidence, then why is Isaacs getting arrested in Drury Lane?
Now consider the part of the story near the chandler's shop where Sheppard is wearing a long great coat. Like the man seen by James Brown. The man with the long coat nearly to his heels.
Being that he was an escape artist, they too wanted to play their "funny little games" by leaving the doors locked from the inside (Mary Kelly's room and an outhouse near where Liz Stride was killed, I believe)
He was hanged, they were strangled. His story is all about spoons and wool and cloth and other items that may have been placed by the killed women. Isn't it possible they even placed part of the apron near Eddowes and the other half at Goulston Street after smearing blood and fecal matter on it? Folk magicians do write spells on cloth with chalk. Remember Sheppard was famous and respected by all segments of society, something a petty thief might easily aspire to be.
And these stories would have been read over and over and every detail of his life memorized. Like the RED room and CASTLE and how he escaped after being fixed and buckled. Sheppard was so famous that the English slang dictionary says the meaning for JACK is "the inevitable nickname of any man surnamed Sheppard". Along with other meanings like "Jack the sailor" and "Sailor Jack".
Other meanings include, a farthing, a seal, a variety of polyanthus, all examples of the JACK symbolism they employed.
The "sailor like" look of the killer's description was not a coincidence. They were doing that on purpose. Thats why they would say "sailor like" but not exactly a sailor. Everything for JACK - Jack Sheppard. This is only one reason why we know that "Jack the Ripper" was from the killers. I can give many more examples of this that can be found in the two stories but for now I will just ask you what do you think so far?
Rob |
Author: John Omlor
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 11:34 am | | Hi Yaz,
Evil memories of being dismissed from the confessional with my penance and then having to count as I said the requisite number of Hail Marys and Our Fathers are flashing through my mind. Yes, I was once a Catholic (until about the age of fifteen or so). Confession was never fun and afterwards I could never get the hang of using those beads to keep track (I always lost my place). Consequently, my bad math skills have cursed my spirit and have probably doomed me to eternal damnation.
Hi Rob,
You write: "And as the pictures so graphically suggest, maybe some of her flesh was consumed."
Where and how do the Kelly crime scene pictures suggest this? I've looked at them pretty carefully, but I can't find any evidence of anything having been eaten. What exactly would count as such evidence, visually?
Just wondering,
--John |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 11:45 am | | Yazoo,
You can arrive at the son of a carpenter in two ways. One is the round about Rosary as Christianity symbolism and the other was when I was researching black magic I saw it used as symbolism for son of a Jewish carpenter. But remember Yaz, I was only making a joke about the whole symbolism thing and wasn't really being serious there. Thats not to suggest that I was wrong though. Afterall, lets not get carried away.
Rob |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 12:07 pm | | Hello again Mr. Omlor,
There were alot of horrible rituals I read about while researching crime over the years that included ripping the flesh off of prostitutes, eating it and then burning other parts in a raging fire. So I wasn't suggesting they HAD consumed her flesh, but rather that since she did have her flesh ripped from her body, the possibility exists some of her flesh was eaten. I certainly can't tell if that had been done either, just that there was a familiar ritualistic look about it. More ritual than purely sexual I would argue.
Rob |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 12:12 pm | | Hi, Rob:
Yes I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree.
I am not personally offended by your theory, however, I am clearly not the only one here who has problems with the points you are making, or should I say, the points you think you are making?
It appears that you want every little bit of the case to fit your magic/multiple killers theory. Thus, every witness sighting somehow contributes to your scheme of things. A man in a deerstalker hat. . . a man dressed as a sailor. . . and so on. But this is illogical. Not all the men seen with these women could have been connected to the murders and neither can all the pieces of "evidence" have significance in the case.
I continue to think that you want your theory to be all-encompassing. Yet, logically, no one theory can be all-encompassing, can it?
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 12:14 pm | | Hello everyone,
I'm going on vacation soon, so get in your best shots before I go - if you can.
Rob
(tommorrow hopefully, if I can complete the work that is piling up on me thanks to you guys) |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 12:40 pm | | Hello Mr. George,
I will agree that no theory can cover everything. But I believe my "theory" does have a certain type of "elegance" to it, so important for us math programmers. Alot of it does "fit" nicely if I do say so myself. And remember it comes together rather quickly when you realize you were dealing with someone using black magic.
Also, I honestly don't care if anyone believes this or not. Because once I make this clear enough, someone will pick it up and improve upon it and carry it forward. And if not - it wouldn't mean a thing to me. I once found a major flaw in the program of a somewhat famous software company and fought with them to admit it for a long time. They ridiculed me as well. When they did finally admit I was right, they told me I would be written up in their periodical for discovering it, and would send me a copy. I'm still waiting. They eventually had to sell that program off to another company. Believe me this does not mean us much to me as you think. For years I wanted to know who were the gunmen in the St. Valentines day massacre and researched that since I was 10. If you know, please tell me. Now that, I care about.
Rob
Fred "killer" Burke I believe was one of the gunmen |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 12:46 pm | | Chris, you probably noticed I wrote "us" instead of "as". Just thought I would beat you to to it.
Rob |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 12:52 pm | | | Boy, I do need a vacation!!!! |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 01:00 pm | | Hi, Rob:
Elegant but far from proven.
Yes, I noticed you wrote "us" instead of "as" but I wasn't going to point it out to you. There are bigger issues of concern in your postings.
It is interesting that a number of people when they come under criticism say they don't care. Human psychology. The length of your posts show you do care though. But, as you say, once you are finished someone else will carry on with your important work.
Spoons!!! Have a look at the link that I posted this morning on the Hyam Hyams board. Maybe you are onto something, Rob. . . Enjoy your vacation.
With best regards
Chris George |
Author: Yazoo
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 01:11 pm | | Rob:
What I want, for the fourth time now, is for you to tell me where you are getting your facts on magic and symbolism and folklore.
I am not asking for you to show me where your theories about the JtR murders have already been documented. But there should be a small mountain of resources to which you can point all the rest of us that says a coin is a seal is a _________ (fill in the blank), for example...just one example.
If you are piecing information together from your experience, past study, anything other than recognized works in the various fields you plough...well, that is fine too. But I think you should just tell us and not answer a question with another question.
I obviously don't have the same knowledge you have. I'd like to acquire it. The only way I can do so is if you tell me your sources.
Meanwhile, all the details of the murder cases will always lend themselves to theories and speculations. What gives longevity and serious consideration to any theory is the reference and research materials used to support it.
If this case means as little to you as you say, answering the question about your sources -- is it from your perception and personal references, or is it derived from X, Y, and Z books -- should make just as little difference to you.
Yaz |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 01:11 pm | | Hi, Rob:
The link I mentioned shows grape shears made by Hyam Hyams but there are also spoons by that Ripper suspect (or his family) listed on the net, e.g, at http://www.nicholas-shaw.com/Stock/flatware/misc%20flatware/p56a.html.
Chris |
Author: Mark List
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 03:23 pm | | I missed out on the Robert Maloney theory.
Could someone please tell what his theory is?
-Mark |
Author: Yazoo
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 04:26 pm | | Hey Mark:
The condensed version goes something (I emphasize, "something") like this:
1) 1888-era Hex masters (whatever they are) and their agents idolized an 18th century highwayman named John Sheppard
2) By killing women -- for some obscure magical purpose -- and using hexes and runes, these hex masters seek to:
a) Bring Sheppard back
b) Join Sheppard on another, no doubt higher, plane
c) Be like Sheppard and extort money from people
d) All of the above
e) None of the above
3) Evidence of these hex-a-guys can be found in:
a) The eyewitness descriptions of men seen around the time JtR killed somebody
b) The clothes and jewelery these men wore (maybe even to their chapeaux)
c) Runes, signs, letters, and various forget-me-nots that Rob finds everywhere -- down to locked outhouses and Kelly's supposedly mysteriously locked door; mutilations shaped liked rosaries; runes on crime scene walls; Sheppard and magic references in the "Dear Boss" letter and card
d) All of the above
e) None of the above
4) The reference or research material to support all this remains a mystery to us all
Welcome to the party.
Yaz |
Author: Mark List
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 04:54 pm | | Yaz,
That's interesting...I wouldn't entirely say "off the wall" because let us not forget the "Heaven Gates" mass suicide a few years back.
I would say that this is along the lines of the other theory about Francis Thompson.
And, I think we all understand, that the Druids and other peoples (Egyptians I believe) believed HEAVILY in astrology and "magic" to fulfill prohecies and rituals that where meant to bring "something".
I would like to know more of his theory, because I have a bit of knowledge on the mythologies of other culture and nations.
Mark |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 05:51 pm | | Dear Mark,
Be vigilant! The Druids and Egyptians did not believe heavily in astrology...astrology a relatively recent past-time, c.14th-15th century.
Rosey Diviner :-) |
Author: Simon Owen
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 06:01 pm | | I think Mark means ASTRONOMY Rosey , unless he knows something about Stonehenge that we don't !
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Author: Mark List
Tuesday, 26 June 2001 - 06:19 pm | | I mean that those cultures had certain rituals which include "earthen" beliefs.(RA, the Sun God, and the Druids belief that at the end of the year the laws of time and space stopped and the dead came back from the grave--the basis for Halloween.)
Maybe the word "astrology" is wrong, but according to what Robert is suggesting (black magic and rituals) such beliefs go back far more than the 14th - 15th century.
And yes, Stonehedge could have been used for astrological rituals--just ask H.P. Lovecraft
Mark |
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