Author: E Carter
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 05:09 am |        |
Jon, yes, it's a genuine photo, but of the wrong location in Bucks Row! The site in Bucks Row you claim to be the correct location had been demolished several years before the photo that I sent to was taken in 1988.
The far lamp post you can see stood in Woods Buildings.
Look at the drawing at the top of 'maps casebook productions Bucks Row', shown in the New York Hearald 1989 September, do's this look like a stables. ED |
Author: Paul Begg
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 05:37 am | |
| I'm sorry, but I am losing the drift here. As Jon has said, the murder scene was located outside the gates between the Board School and the row of houses that comprised Bucks Row and located opposite Essex Wharf. The witness testimony confirms this, not the least being statements such as PC Neil's that he attracted the attention of PC Thain at the Brady Street end of Buck's Row with his lantern. I'm not clear where you are suggesting the murder actually took place, Mr Carter. |
Author: Alegria
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 07:58 am | |
As this seems to be a thread of some interest and people are having difficulty following it because it is on a non-archived board... I am considering moving it to an archived board. It would not retrieve all that has been lost but it would allow for future posters to follow it more easily.
Ally |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 09:04 am | |
Hi Ally:
Since everyone believes, I think correctly, that Ed is wrong, why archive this thread? I vote no to archiving the thread.
Chris |
Author: Paul Begg
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 09:28 am | |
| I can't see any point in archiving the thread either if Ed is wrong. I'm just not sure where he thinks the murder scene was located, unless he thinks it was the stables once located between Court Street and Woods Buildings - and the murder scene wasn't located there, as all the witness testimony indicates - which I got the idea of when I briefly scannedthis discussion a little while ago. |
Author: Alegria
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 09:32 am | |
Everyone believes the Diary fake and yet look at the boards and boards devoted to it. People seem willing to discuss it so why should someone's opinion that it is not worthy make it more difficult for them to do so?
Ed: your theory, you want it archived or not? |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 10:23 am | |
Hi, all:
I guess Melvin Harris is content to see the Maybrick industry churning on and on with more people being misled. That, to paraphrase his own words, is "good enough for him."
John, I am not sure that there was any talk of Melvin meeting with Shirley Harrison and Keith Skinner. The meeting that was in the offing, I believe, was between Peter Birchwood and Keith and Shirley.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 02:19 pm | |
Hi, all:
Sorry I misposted the last statement here... It should have been on the Professional Standards board, where I have now reposted it.
All the best
Chris |
Author: E Carter
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 03:20 pm | |
Jon, are you able to put the photo and the drawing, I mention, on the casebook? Unless they are here for everyone to see I can not pursue my case properly; and at the moment I can not post photos to the casebook from my computer.
Please have patience, I am working nights and have little time.
However, I firmly believe, Great Eastern Square, was not the murder site! ED. |
Author: The Viper
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 04:59 pm | |
The conversation is on-topic. It has proved very hard to follow to those of us who have tried to do so. Therefore yes, it should be archived please, Alegria.
Regards, V. |
Author: Alegria
Friday, 08 June 2001 - 05:28 pm | |
Okay if this works, it will now be archived. Attention ED: Board has moved!!!  |
Author: E Carter
Saturday, 09 June 2001 - 01:12 pm | |
| I am waiting for the photo I mentioned to arrive on the casebook, I believe Jon is going to post it. ED. PS, is this the correct board? |
Author: E Carter
Saturday, 09 June 2001 - 03:07 pm | |
However, whilst we wait, I am sure that Jon will confirm that last week I posted him a photograph, this was taken by two historians who claim that the photo is of the remainder of the murder site in the late 1980s and apparently includes the gates of Browns stable, in the now renamed Durward Street.
The photo simply claims to show the actual site of Polly Nichols murder just before the structural demolition of the gates that she was discovered beneath.
The site shown, has an 'incredible' likeness to a contemporary drawing that can be seen on the casebook: Victims, Polly Nichols; a shallow gateway with two gates 9 to 10 feet high, and a circular wire-grating fixed between the right adjoining wall and gate-post.
The structure shown in this photo is definitely older than the one shown in the 1960s photo's claiming to be the correct location, in fact, in the photo I hope will soon be posted cobbled-stones can still to be seen on the ground below. Have to go to work, will carry on tomorrow ED.
PS anyone who wants the photo E-mail me and I will send it tomorrow ED. |
Author: Jon
Saturday, 09 June 2001 - 04:13 pm | |
My oppologies for the delay.
This is ED's picture, the lower photo in centre is what ED has been referring to.
 |
Author: Jon
Saturday, 09 June 2001 - 04:18 pm | |
Here in dubious quality is the picture of the accepted murder scene from Robin Odell's book.
Please disregard the circled detail on rooftop, that was from another discussion.
Hmm, quality wasn't too bad on this one afterall.
If ED can send me an enlarged scan of his pic so we can pick out more detail, I will re-poste it again.
But, to be honest, so many gateways in old London will have looked the same that I don't know if we can take it on trust that ED's source is beyond dispute.
Regards, Jon |
Author: Christopher T George
Saturday, 09 June 2001 - 10:04 pm | |
Hi Jon and Ed:
The quality is bad and maybe I am mistaken but Ed's "photograph" is surely a drawing, isn't it? One other thing, I believe the Sixties photographs showing the garage indicate the murder site, outside the door of the garage. However, unless my eyes are deceiving me, the gates of the stables were gone by then, and the opening to the garage was photographed only to indicate the area corresponding to the area outside the old gates where Polly Nichols was found.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: E Carter
Sunday, 10 June 2001 - 01:05 pm | |
O'K the photo at the bottom was taken by two historians in 1987, after the location you claim to be the murder site had been demolished.(Proof this is a genuine photo can, and will be supplied). Compare the photo with the contemporary drawing above on your left. Now where is the deep entrance mentioned by Martin and Ivor?
Next step! Examine the journalist drawing above casebook productions, maps Bucks Row, this illustration was shown in the New York Herald on Wednesday 11th September 1889. Compare it with the 1960's photo below my one, sent in by Jon in following post, the drawing shown in the Herald and the photo sent by Jon are exactly the same.
Note both the side windows and the lack of internal brickwork protruding from the Western flank wall on the illustration, this is because it was designated as an end cottage .
The photo sent in by Jon has no side windows and shows internal brickwork on the flank wall because two cottages to the West have been demolished.
I have to get out for a run before going to work, but please, just try to follow what I am saying. Carry on soon ED. |
Author: E Carter
Sunday, 10 June 2001 - 01:13 pm | |
| PS. Jon I will sent the enlarged photo asap, or give me a casebook address ( ? supplied by Ryder) and I will send a very good copy by post. ED. |
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 10 June 2001 - 01:34 pm | |
Ed , can you post the map of Bucks Row again showing where the ' new ' stable gateway was sposed to be ?
Without endorsing or criticising the theory , may I make a point : even if Browns Yard had been demolished to make way for the railway , its still possible the gates would have been left standing as a fascade to disguise the tracks , in Baker Street there was even an old housefront left standing to fulfill the same purpose.
The drawing appears on the cover of ' The Penny Illustrated Paper ' September 8th 1888 and is reprinted in Rumbelow , WH Allen hardback edition , 1987. There clearly is a set of metal spikes or a railing to the right of the gateway , I wonder if these had a function to keep people away from the traintracks if the yard illustrated is Brown's stable. |
Author: E Carter
Sunday, 10 June 2001 - 02:33 pm | |
Simon, I believe you have hit the nail directly on the head, my first thoughts were, that the entrance most claim to be the site of Browns, was indeed the 'back entrance' to the stable. I then thought Mr Purkis house in Bucks Row could have been opposite the back entrance to Browns.
However this dosen't make sense!
I now believe that a horse-keeper 'lived' at number1, Bucks Row, called Great Eastern Square,. The stables were in Bucks Row around the corner. Everything but the front was destroyed when the Great Eastern Railway came through. The front being destroyed in 1887.
Martin said that when Paul went up the staircase of Mr Purkis's house opposite the site currently recognized in Bucks Row, there was no front bedroom.
Yet Mr Purkis said he was in the front room on the second floor. Could Paul have entered the wrong building? I have to go to work now, I will get back asap. ED. I finish nights soon. |
Author: E Carter
Sunday, 10 June 2001 - 02:35 pm | |
| PS, the real house being further down the Row where the stables used to be! ED. |
Author: The Viper
Sunday, 10 June 2001 - 05:27 pm | |
Time to quote and explain your sources please Ed.
1). Great Eastern Square. Have checked 8 different maps dated between 1809 and 1894 and cannot see any reference to the name. Can you please explain where you got this from and the date of the source.
2). Great Eastern Railway through Buck's Row? Is this a slip of your fingers or am I seriously mistaken?
3). The front of the stables outlived the rest of the building but was then destroyed in 1887. Where is the proof of that statement? (I'll lay money there is none for this).
4). 1 Buck's Row. Assuming there was such a place in 1888, could you please explain simply and clearly where it was, e.g. north/south side, and east/west of the Board School etc.
5). "I now believe that a horse-keeper 'lived' at number1, Bucks Row, called Great Eastern Square". Well, either a horse keeper lived there or he didn't. Where is the evidence and what's with the quote marks?
You have yet to explain away satisfactorily the weight of the documentary evidence cited in my poste of last week (archive now lost). Nor have you elaborated upon your cryptic comment telling us simply to read the map page on the CP site very carefully.
Regards, V. |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 10 June 2001 - 07:47 pm | |
Hi, all:
I agree with Ed to the extent that the last photograph posted by Jon shows Buck's Row after the end houses had been demolished. This is typically how the end of a house will look when its neighbors have been taken down. Ramsey's book shows a view from the Thirties which shows a window in the end house, while there is none here, therefore it is not the original end of the row. Unfortunately I only have a photocopy of the page from Ramsey which is unhelpful in showing the gates but does clearly show the side of the end house which is different to what Jon has posted. I still do think though that the original gate posts could not have been remaining as late as the 1980s. Who are these two historians who took the photograph in 1987, Ed? Why can't you give us their names?
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: The Viper
Monday, 11 June 2001 - 04:18 am | |
Ed, A map containing the name Great Eastern Square does exist, namely G. Bacon's New Large-Scale Ordnance Atlas. Therefore please ignore my point 1. above.
Regards, V. |
Author: Simon Owen
Tuesday, 12 June 2001 - 03:36 pm | |
Apologies for the graininess of the picture but you can clearly see the supposed position of Polly's body , the windows , and the ironwork to the right of the gateway.
The picture is taken from ' True Detective ' magazine , May 2001.
Simon |
Author: Jon
Tuesday, 12 June 2001 - 06:40 pm | |
This is the 2nd photo which ED asked me to poste.
 |
Author: Jon
Tuesday, 12 June 2001 - 06:48 pm | |
try agin
apparently a .doc file will not load up.....anyone got any clues?
If ED can send me a .jpg file all will be revealed.
Jon |
Author: E Carter
Wednesday, 13 June 2001 - 11:53 am | |
| Simon,have you actually you been to the public records office in Myddleton Square, London, E.C.1 and checked the 1881-1891 census to discover who actually lived where? If you have not , do so, and whilst you are there have some 'pie and mash' in 'Clark,s'. Their shop is nearby in Exmouth Market. ED Simon look with care, could that grid been added? My friend,a photographer, swears it was added to the photo! |
Author: E Carter
Wednesday, 13 June 2001 - 11:57 am | |
| Simon,have you actually you been to the public records office in Myddleton Square, London, E.C.1 and checked the 1881-1891 census to discover who actually lived where? If you have not , do so, and whilst you are there have some 'pie and mash' in 'Clark,s'. Their shop is nearby in Exmouth Market. ED Simon look with care, could that grid been added? My friend,a photographer, swears it was added to the photo! |
Author: E Carter
Wednesday, 13 June 2001 - 12:05 pm | |
The person who can understand this equasion knows the man who claims to be 'Jack'.
122221, ABHE. ED |
Author: E Carter
Wednesday, 13 June 2001 - 12:08 pm | |
Someone puts a new grid on an old building?
Simon look with care, how old is that grid? Remember it's a new magazine trying to sell an 'old story'.
122221 ABHE. ED.
|
Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 13 June 2001 - 02:38 pm | |
Ed , I think the photograph is originally from Ramsey's book and taken in the 1930s - maybe Chris George could confirm that it is the same photo that he has on his photocopy ?
It does show however that a rail did stand on the wall in Buck's Row at some point (although we do not know if it was standing there in 1888).
The traditional Buck's Row site does match the drawing in two respects however :
(i) The stable gate is immediately adjacent to the wall of the house.
(ii) The house has two windows in it overlooking the yard.
To solve this problem , we need I think to see a detailed street plan of Bucks Row/Derward Street
with the two sites marked clearly on it and then we can make a better decision as this photo doesn't necessarily refute either theory.
Simon
I'm afraid I am a bit poor at the mo , but when I get a chance to go to London again I'll try and pop to Myddleton Square. |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 12:26 am | |
Hi, Simon:
The Thirties view in Ramsey is taken from a longer distance away so is not I think the same one that you posted. I also think the grill in the picture you have posted is not the same as the one in Ed's picture. Possibly though such a grill was employed to stop people climbing down into the adjoining railway cutting as I believe someone, possibly you, said. Ramsey's book indicates that the murder took place 70 yards east of the Board School and in the gateway of the stables next to the railway cutting.
Incidentally, in terms of the warehouse on the other side of the street, I keep hearing the term "wharf" being used. Possibly Viper can explain why it was called a wharf. This term seems to imply it was on a body of water. Was it on a canal, for example?
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: E Carter
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 04:36 am | |
Myddlton Street holds historical census returns, the 1881 census reveals that New Cottage was occupied by a carpenter named Parkinson.
Next door, at number 1, there lived a farrier, and at number 2, a horse-keeper. Many of the houses were occupied by 'horsey people', for example a Blacksmith named John Lambert Lived at number 7.
The photgraph I sent to Jon clearly reveals the position of numbert 14 Bucks Row, where in 1888, a Labourer named William Ferguson lived with his wife Sarah. The house is only four doors away from the structure that you posted on the above board.
I do not know how good the picture I sent to Jon is, or if he can confirm my observation, however the same photo can be found in ' Infamous Crimes that shocked the world' Mcdonald Publishing 1989. :later called Black Cat Publishing.
The house next to the structure is number 18.
I have to go out will finish this later. ED.
PS, if you do make it the pie and mash is on me. |
Author: Martin Fido
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 06:53 am | |
Since Ed kindly sent me the map and pix from which he is working, I should say at once that I accept without question his view that I exaggerated the depth of the gateway. On the other hand, I think that his map shows the stables to have been where we have always believed (and to have overlapped into land on which the Board School was constructed subsequent to the drawing of the map). The building Paul Begg examined was quite definitely the right one: it had elaborate Victorian brickwork decorations with swagging and the original name Essex Wharf. I much regret not having been over it with Paul, but suspect that the designation 'front bedroom' differentiates the room from a second bedroom at the rear of the house, and was not intended to imply that it looked out over Buck's Row.
But for all who want to simply dismiss Ed's work because they disagree with his conclusion, I strongly recommend waiting till it is all published, as it undoubtedly rests on some very detailed and interesting research that we will all want to examine and recheck.
With all good wishes,
Martin F |
Author: The Viper
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 07:06 am | |
Chris, The building facing Buck’s Row in which Mr. and Mrs. Purkiss lived was called Essex Wharf, the name being inscribed on the wall and visible from the street. The Essex Wharf was a builders merchants with brick and timber stores located just behind the street. A few yards to the east was a block of three warehouses referred to as the Eagle Wharf, presumably because they were in the ownership of a company called Browne & Eagle.
It was Martin Fido, I believe, who stated on the forum (though I can’t find the reference, so it must have been on a non-archive board) that these buildings were known as wharves because there used to be a canal beside them. The great age of canal building was the late eighteenth century and the beginning of the nineteenth, following in the wake of the industrial revolution. From the 1830s onwards canals lost out heavily to the expanding railway network. After consulting maps of the area in the early nineteenth century when one might expect to see the canal marked, I must confess to being unable to find it. So if anybody out there (Martin?) knows anything more about the name of said canal, where it ran between and when it was there we’d be most grateful…
Regards, V. |
Author: Martin Fido
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 07:33 am | |
Hi Viper,
I wish I could remember where I read that explanation of the name 'wharves' for the Buck's Row warehouses. Ten or twelve years ago I was reading masses of tomes on London in relation to some work on Dickens, and it was probably in one of those. It cleared up what had been a puzzle for me, but I don't recall its specifying the canal and I'm sure I have never seen a map showing it. Sorry to be so little help.
Martin |
Author: The Viper
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 07:41 am | |
No problem, Martin. Will ask the librarians next time I'm at the Bancroft Library. They are a mine of information on East End history. Any findings will be posted here.
Regards, V. |
Author: Jon
Thursday, 14 June 2001 - 06:57 pm | |
Chris
Now Viper has explained Essex Wharf, maybe you can explain Wigan Pier?
:-) |
