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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
BLACK BAG MYTH
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: General Topics:
BLACK BAG MYTH
Author: Scott Quigley Nguyen
Sunday, 04 March 2001 - 08:22 pm |        | | Witness Sarah Lewis of Spitalfields had an encounter with a sinister stranger on Bethnal Green Road on 11/07/88. The man carried a black bag some 9 to 12 inches long and wanted the women to follow him into a narrow passage. His appearance alarmed and his persistance alarmed them and they held back. |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 05 March 2001 - 12:01 am | | Yes. What's the problem? Check out her entry in 'The Jack the Ripper A-Z'. (I've just done so).
Martin Fido |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 05 March 2001 - 03:13 pm | | Hello everyone !
Since this topic has been raised , maybe we should indeed look again at the possibility that the Ripper carried a bag with him ( N.B. I am assuming the murderer travelled on foot here , rather than restating my beliefs that he travelled in a carriage ! ).
I think we may assume two things to be facts here : (i) The Ripper carried at least one knife with him to his work , and (ii) the Ripper carried organs from at least two of the victims ( Chapman and Eddowes ) away with him.
Thus , we might presume that he hid these implements and body parts when walking to/from the murder scene , as well as when chatting to the victims. Thus the question is - How ?
That the knife may have been hidden in the pocket of an overcoat is a possibility , it may also have been wrapped in some material to keep the blood from the coat after the deed was done. Is there evidence that the killer had more than one knife however ? Is the weapon responsible for the mutilations inflicted on Mary Kelly the same blade that was used to cut the throat of Liz Stride or stab the abdomen of Polly Nichols ?
Is it not logical to assume that the Ripper might have actually carried a whole set of knives - a short sharp knife for cutting throats , a longer one for stabbing , a larger heavier blade for hacking away flesh and muscle , a penknife for cutting sinewy tissue , a spare blade in case his knife broke etc.
In the case of Nichols , the killer may have performed limited damage to Polly's abdomen because he did not have a strong enough blade to cut her up with , a fact he could have remieded when he came to deal with Chapman.
In the case of Annie herself , it has been noted that the injuries to her throat were sufficient to suggest that the killer was trying to cut her head off. Now , if this is the case , a human head cannot easily be hidden in , or disguised under , an overcoat. This would suggest that the killer had a bag to carry it in.
Think about it : for transporting the organs away from the crime scene , why would the killer not use a bag ? The alternative would have been to put them in his pockets - possibly uncomfortable , smelling of blood and offal , dripping with blood. Even wrapping the organs in towel , newspaper or cloth might not have stopped the blood soaking through into the Ripper's clothing. He could have ended up covered in blood - and even if this was not the case , how would he know unless he had practical experience of carrying organs around in his pockets !
If the organs were to be preserved as trophies , why not a bag with jars of preserving fluid in it so the organs could be put directly into them.
Why not carry a bag ? That is a good question ! For the first two canonical victims , carrying a bag would not have made the killer conspicuous as ( I believe ) no-one was looking for a man with a bag but rather for a Leather-Apron type of killer. In fact , the reason the killer cut off a piece of Eddowes' apron might have been because he was forced to abandon his bag due to it being too noticeable and he needed something to carry away the organs in. However if he needed a sack , surely he would have come prepared with one ?
I supposed it depends again on your view of the killer - disorganised or organised. A killer who made careful plans to kill might have prepared a ' murder kit ' ( as serial rapists often prepare a ' rape kit ' for subduing and binding their victims ) consisting of knives , jars , a bag , maybe rope etc and this would be need to be carried somehow ; if the killer killed due to cravings or on the spur of the moment , he would probably have carried all his weapons and trophies on his body somewhere.
Please feel free to comment and criticize on my opinions !
Simon |
Author: David M. Radka
Monday, 05 March 2001 - 08:43 pm | | Simon,
Great post, old bean, but I simply can't imagine the Ripper walzing away from a murder site carrying a blood-effluviating human head in a sack! That's just too breathtakingly much for me to comprehend! I think he'd be a bit smarter than to walk the streets in such a condition. I mean really!
Your Friend,
David |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 05 March 2001 - 09:09 pm | | Dear Simon,
Lunch box? Lunch pail? Billy-c..k? Under his hat?
I once humped a huge rucksack of fine art through a small village at half past seven in the morning
heading to the train station dressed as a weary boy scout heading to his next camp site. The two police officers sat in their patrol car eyed me with great suspicious until...I could actually see it happen...they both -simultaneously- banished this absurd apparition from thoughts.To their great horror, their Inspector received an annonymous postcard of Baden Powell with their car number, time and location on the reverse.
Moral of story...be prepared!
Rosemary-Raffles. |
Author: Leanne Perry
Tuesday, 06 March 2001 - 06:02 am | | G'day Good People (and any bad ones too),
Reading this 'full account of the inquest into the death of Mary Jane Kelly', here's what Sarah Lewis actually said: "......On Wednesday night I was going along the Bethnal-green-road with a woman, about eight o'clock, when a gentleman passed us. H followed us and spoke to us, and wanted us to follow him into an entry. He had a shiny leather beg with him".
CORONER: "Did he want you both?"
"No only one. I refused He went away and came back again, saying he would treat us.He put down his bag and picked it up again, saying "What are you frightened about? Do you think I've got anything in the bag?" We then ran away as we were frightened".
CORONER: "Was he a tall man?"
"He was short, pale-faced, with a black moustache, rather small. His age was about forty."
CORONER: "Was it a large bag?"
"No, about 6in to 9in long. His hat was a high round hat. He had a brownish overcoat, with a black short coat underneath. His trousers were a dark pepper and salt."
I think that eight o'clock was way too early for the Ripper to risk scaring any woman and 40 is too old for our man. The 'Autumn of Terror' brought out a lot of weirdos, who enjoyed frightening women and I think this was one of them. He frequented the 'Britannia', and happened to be there on Friday morning too.
I do however believe the Ripper needed to carry a 'murder kit' to and from each scene though! Or maybe he picked the murder site beforehand, and hid a 'kit' somewhere nearby to pick up and put back when he finished with it.
LEANNE! |
Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 07 March 2001 - 03:11 pm | | ANNIE'S HEAD : From Mr Fido's " Crimes , Detection and Death of JTR " page 34 :-
" A very important revelation Dr Phillips made about Annie's throat has been almost overlooked ever since. ' There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine ' he told the inquest.
They were parallel to each other and seperated by half an inch. The muscular structure between the side processes of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to seperate the bones of the neck.
In other words , the murderer tried to cut Annie's head off. And failed."
Ergo if the murderer had intended to take a head with him , he must have had some sack or bag to carry it in ! |
Author: Lisa Muir
Wednesday, 07 March 2001 - 07:52 pm | | Mr. Owen -
Although the murderer attempted to behead Annie Chapman, that doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that he intended to take her head away with him. The fact is that we have no way of knowing for certain what his intent was. Terribly frustrating at times!
Lisa |
Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 07 March 2001 - 08:20 pm | | I think that it would be most likely that the head would have been taken away as a trophy , although of course its not certain ; we assume , giving the other missing body parts , that this was a killer more into taking trophies from his victims than cutting up and arranging the body parts for display and creating a particular effect. The mutilation of the victim seems to be enough.
Equally , the head could have been removed to prevent identification of the victim and thus would have had to be removed from the crimescene.
I imagine that removing the head of a victim is pretty rare in the annals of serial crime , as is mutilation such as occurred in these murders. This all makes me think that the Ripper is a very unique beast indeed. |
Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 07 March 2001 - 08:25 pm | | | One obvious example is of course Ed Kemper , focus of attention for both Ressler and Douglas ; here the beheading seems connected to the problems he had with his mother. He beheaded one of his victims and buried her head in the backyard as his mother always wanted people to ' look up ' to her. Finally he beheaded his mother herself and cut out her larynx , which he attempted to feed down the garbage disposer in revenge for all the ' bitchin and screamin ' she had done at him throughout the years : ironically the machine spat the organ right back at him. |
Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 07 March 2001 - 08:29 pm | | | Its true that certain killers cut up the body in order to dispose of it more easily , but I am talking here about extreme mutilation being part of the killer's signature for his crimes , rather than an unpleasant necessity. |
Author: Leanne Perry
Thursday, 08 March 2001 - 05:39 pm | | G'day Lisa, Simon, Everyone,
If Jack tried but couldn't get Annie Chapman's head off, I reckon that's why 2 of his next 3 victims, (excluding Elizabeth Stride), had their faces so badly mutilated.
I agree with Lisa, he may not have intended to take Annie's head. It would have been too hard to conceal, even in a bag!
LEANNE! |
Author: Simon Owen
Thursday, 08 March 2001 - 06:25 pm | | | Which begs the question then : what was he going to do with the head once he had cut it off ? |
Author: Lisa Muir
Friday, 09 March 2001 - 12:05 am | | Most everything is speculation, isn't it? So - what about stomping on it; tossing it with her intestines; impaling it for display...There were all sorts of things he could've done w/it.
The simplest being, he could have cut it off & left it be. |
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