Pubs in 1888

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Pubs in 1888

Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: General Topics: Pubs in 1888

Author: Leigh Yeager Saturday, 02 December 2000 - 04:17 pm
Hi In order to understand a little more about what life was like at the time I was wondering if anyone could tell me what an "East End Booza" was like? I hear that there was sawdust on the floors and beer was not drunk from glasses but "pots". Also in one of the Ripper reports mention is made of "Compartments". Can anyone help me gain a picture of what the interior of one of these pubs would have looked like in those days ie. seating, bar, lighting, decor etc...? Thanks Leigh
Author: Jon Saturday, 02 December 2000 - 06:07 pm
Hi Leigh That sort of question could have a variety of answers. East-end boozers (pubs) were no different than any other pub in Victorian England. Though those in the East-end may have been worse for wear than most others. If you have seen the inside of saloons in western movies, that will give you a point to start from, they were very similar. All polished wood decore, heavy solid built furnishings, leaded glass where necessary, large gas lamps though the interiors were on the dark and dismal side. Sawdust in some establishments, to soak up the spills and generally make sweeping up easier. Beer drunk from mugs, jugs or a variety of large 'pots', with wood or metal handles. Along a back wall several partitions installed perpendicular to the wall, to seperate groups of drinkers, called nook's, cozy's or if partition included a door, a snug. Just remember, if it's purely East-end pubs you are interested in, then there will have been some well kept establishments, middle-of-the-road types and wholly deplorable establishments, quite the variety in fact. I'm sure others can bring up some features I have forgotten. I think I had some 1880's pictures of the inside of various pubs, I know I seen some not long ago. Might have been in a library book. Hope that helps, somewhat. Regards, Jon
Author: Leanne Perry Sunday, 03 December 2000 - 05:39 am
G'day Leigh, I found a site called: 'Victorian London Taverns Inns and Public Houses'. http://www.gendocs.demon.co.uk/pubs.html Leanne!
Author: Leanne Perry Sunday, 03 December 2000 - 05:52 am
G'day, Also go 'Back to the Casebook', click on 'Dissertations', then on 'The House Where Jack Swilled', which is right down the bottom. Leanne!
Author: Martin Fido Sunday, 03 December 2000 - 08:40 am
Haven't checked back to Dissertations, so hope I'm not offeing redundant repetition, but The Ten Bells, where Mary Jane Kelly drank on her last night alive, and which called itself The Jack the Ripper during the 1970s and '80s, still has some Victorian and some Edwardian tiles from the turn of the century. At that time they backed a sort of roomy corridor around two walls, with the bar in the centre and doors at the corners so that it was divided into separate rooms (one of them pretty certainly the compartmented snug. The third and fourth walls, then as now, had windows on the street, and would have been two more small bars again separated by doors). The purely ornamental tiles are the earlier Victorian ones which surrounded the corridor rooms; the picture tiles showing the old market are the later improvement. Or so, at least, a former landlord told me. When I first knew The City Darts on the corner of Wentworth Street, it was still called The Princess Alice as it was in the days when 'Leather Apron' and 'Mickeldy Joe' allegedly hung round it to watch the hookers on the pavement opposite (where they still ply for trade in the summer months), and when Liz Stride passed it every time she came up from Aldgate to the Flowery Dean, probably taking from it the idea of claiming to have lost her family in the 'Princess Alice' disaster. The pub, as I knew it, had a dusty picture of Queen Victoria's daughter (presumably Alice Maud Mary, Grand Duchess of Hesse-Darmstadt 1843-1878. I say presumably because of that annoying royal habit of being Bertie in the family but Edward to the world; Eddie in the family, but Albert Victor to the world; David in the family, but Edward to the world; Bertie in the family but George to the world, etc). That sign must, of course, have been repainted repeatedly and probably varied from 1888. Inside there was a model of the ill-fated Thames passenger boat. But unlike today's carpeted, split-level, juke-box and bar billiards setting with padded ulholstered banquettes, it was a dusty wooden plank floored single room with the bar essentially where it is today, but the room generally feeling narrower and more enclosed. Old wooden high stools and windsor back type chairs at lining the bar were all i ever saw occupied. The clientele seemed to be the traditional charladies drinking port-and-lemon or snowballs. Another East End pub which gives a really interesting hint of the past and the snuggeries is The Grapes in Narrow Street, Limehouse. This sometimes claims to be the original of The Six Jolly Fellowship Porters in Dickens' 'Our Mutual Friend', though clearly Dickens drew part of his description from the now demolished Two Brewers a little way down the road (and opposite the wine bar Ripper historian sDan Farson once owned), and other aspect of the 'Porters' can be noted in the prospect of Whitby. The abiding interest of The Grapes is the tiny glassed-in triangle with bench seat beside the door, which must correspond to Dickens' miniscule snug 'like a flatiron'. Martin Fido
Author: Christopher T George Sunday, 03 December 2000 - 11:32 am
Hi Martin: I too must deplore the juke box and video game intrusions into the traditional atmosphere of the English pub. One of my disappointments on revisiting Liverpool after an absence of some years was to find that the old Aigburth Hotel was gone. This was the hotel/pub closest to Battlecrease House and where the inquest on James Maybrick was held. Though it is not labeled, I believe the top photograph at the following site is a photo of the Aigburth Hotel taken not soon after that time: http://www.merseyworld.com/local_history/apoecsl2.html Growing up in England, my first interest in history was in "old" history, i.e., medieval, Saxon, Roman, etc. However, before I emigrated to the United States in 1968, one of my friends wrote a architectural dissertation on the Victorian public houses of Liverpool, including the Philharmonic, the Vines, the Crown, etc. In reading his dissertation, I began to realize how fantastic these institutions were that were fast disappearing--gin palaces and beer houses with stained glass, leadlight windows and ceilings, copper and mahogany counters, brass fittings and oak booths. We compare the solidity of the Victorian era with the plastic, vinyl, and veneer replacements of today and begin to appreciate how the quality has deteriorated. My present love of and appreciation for Victoriana was inspired by my friend's dissertation. To help Leigh better understand what some of the Victorian pubs were like, in addition to Adrian Phypers' dissertation on East End pubs here on the Casebook (http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-pubsv.html), there is some information on some of the historic pubs of Liverpool at http://iasc1.scm.liv.ac.uk/crawl.html Best regards Chris George
Author: Warwick Parminter Sunday, 03 December 2000 - 04:26 pm
In the thirties I remember, as a boy, living in a small mining village, and going shopping with my mother to the local C.O.O.P., there was always a clean covering of sawdust on the floor. In the late fourties I remember being lured into a large Victorian pub,--(I didn't drink beer in those days). I would agree with Chris, Grail's and Jon's descriptions of Victorian pubs, but I found this one depressing. The ceiling seemed to be 20ft high,very large bar-room, tiled walls, gloomy gas lights, padded seating against the wall opposite the bar, small round polished wood tables, with cast iron legs, with wooden stools, and red tiled floor with plenty of sawdust thrown down. It wasn't full of laughing and talking, it was quite subdued, groups talking quietly to each other here and there, most men wore caps or tribys--(fedoras), all seemed to be middle-aged or old. The solitary drinkers just sitting staring at their drinks, old ladies sitting with their glasses of stout, clutching their handbags. A group, looked like a family group, sat round a table not saying a word to each other. Not a friendly or interesting face to be seen. The sawdust was to combat spilt drink and spitting. The habit of spitting was much more prevalant then, than today, not just spittle--a lot was phlegm, maybe due to working conditions in those days, health and safety wasn't too high on the list in the fourties. I can understand even Eastend pro's not lying down for clients in 1888. The streets must have been much worse there at that time, I would think most men drank, smoked, mostly pipes, and chewed tobacco (more spitting) even middle aged and old women smoked clay pipes and chewed tobacco, this combined with the factory smoke and the fogs and general dirtiness of the area would have shortened their lives considerably. Then you have the horse muck, dog muck, phlegm,rotting vegetation, and I would guess humans played their part along side the horses and dogs.With that thought in mind I can't help but think Eddowes apron---(and the graffiti) was missed first time around. Thats the impression I get of the Eastend in 1888, some fact and some imagination. Rick
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden Monday, 04 December 2000 - 03:07 pm
I'm reminded of the sign in the East End Pub that supposidly ran, 'Drunk for a penny, dead drunk for tuppence and the straw, (to pass out in), for free. Wolf.
Author: Simon Owen Monday, 04 December 2000 - 05:06 pm
Isn't that sign from Hogarth's famous engraving of " Gin Lane " ?
Author: Martin Fido Tuesday, 05 December 2000 - 08:47 am
Spot on, Simon. And they're in a pretty obscure place. (The main visible sign in Gin Lane is the pawnbroker's). They appear over the arched doorway at the bottom left of the picture, identified as a tavern by the sign of a flagon. That puts the wording back into the 1750s. By 1888 the 'gin palace' was the very luxurious mahogany-and-ground-glass recognition that the workers now had money and wanted to seem a bit posher. (Disraeli's 'Sybil' shows interestingly how the proto-music halls of the 1840s were part of the same new industrial artisans' opulence). The Salisbury in St Martin's Lane is an almost pefectly preserved late Victorian gin palace. It was specially created because the new West End music halls the Hippodrome and the Coliseum decided to prove their respectability by eliminating bars. As a bonus you have an inn sign with the PM of the Rpper's day, whom all Gullibles know set up the Masonic conspiracy, and you are visiting a pub where latter-day serial killer Dennis Nilsen went looking for friends to kill. (Fear not, I've never been troubled by either cruising gays or murderers when going there - though, of course, that may be merely because I am by now so ancient, unattractive and on the verge of dying naturally!) Martin Fido Martin Fido
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Tuesday, 10 April 2001 - 03:21 pm
I would like to know did any of the victims drink in the Roe Buck at the end of Bucks Row? This pub was standing around 6 years ago but in a bad state of repair and i have pictures of it somewhere, alas now it's gone forever and has made way for very ugly housing association houses. Also a very authentic looking pub in the area is The Alma, anyone know anything of this one and when it's going to come down as i'm sure it will have to eventually to make way for other things - why i do not know. Also i was given a copy of Gerry White's Life in an East End Tenement Building for christmas and was suprised to read that Lolesworth Street ran between Thrawl Street and Flower and Dean, (hence Lolesworth Close of today) no one ever hardly mentions this street when talking about the area. The book i might add is very interesting and although i borrowed it quite easily from my local library at home in Hertfordshire i found it very hard to get it here now i'm in the USA, infact my husband paid $100 for it from Amazon.com.
Author: A.M.P. Wednesday, 11 April 2001 - 05:41 am
Hi Sarah, Yes, I remember the Roebuck too. A shabby, seen-better-days pub, much in keeping with the locality. It disappeared when Buck's Row - or Durwood Street as it became - was redeveloped in the mid-1990s. None of the sources I have read lists a link between it and any of the victims. Ditto for The Alma. That isn't to say that none of them ever used these establishments, but they had literally hundreds of pubs to choose from in the area. The Lolesworth Street you mention was formerly known as George Street. It was extremely rough and contained a lot of doss houses, especially along the eastern side. Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Mary Jane Kelly, Annie Farmer and Rose Mylett all had connections to the street. Best Wishes
Author: Martin Fido Wednesday, 11 April 2001 - 06:12 am
The Alma is where the Cloak and Dagger club originally met until its premises became too small. It has a back room decorated with murals and road signs conjuring up features of the Ripper case. Its convivial landlord, Steve Kane, is an East Ender with a wealth of interesting local acquaintance, ranging from most of the local police to Jack 'Spot' Comer, the former ganglord 'King of Soho'. Steve likes to make the point that The Alma was indeed on the spot in 1888 as a beershop, and will show you where it brewed its own potations. He also notes that some professional profilers have thought the Ripper tanked up in some local boozer before going on the kill, and may have picked up or scouted out victims there. In which case he should have been at a beershop rather than a fully licensed public house, as the latter were not supposed to serve tarts. And, Steve would note, the Hanbury Street murder site is about 75 yards away as the crow flies. Did Jack drink in The Alma...? For some years it was home base to Ripper walks led by a guide who sported a handlebar moustache, bowler hat and checked ulster, and pretended to be the grandson of Inspector Abberline. Martin Fido
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Wednesday, 11 April 2001 - 04:14 pm
Thank you Martin, that's very informative. I passed by the Alma last April the last time i was home but did not go in, i really wish i had now. Had you been in the Roebuck? You never mentioned Gerry Whites book - have you read it? I thought it gave a very good feel for the time, and as your main man is Mr Cohen i thought you may have as it was a predominantly Jewish tenement block. Sarah.
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Wednesday, 11 April 2001 - 04:18 pm
Hi AMP, does this mean George Street and George Yard (Martha Tabrum/Turner fame) are one and the same an extension of or nothing to do with eachother?!
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Wednesday, 11 April 2001 - 04:27 pm
By the way AMP here is a link to a picture of Lolesworth Street if you are interested. Sarah http://humanities.uwe.ac.uk/corehistorians/urban/core2/views/at6p51ha.htm#Title
Author: A.M.P. Wednesday, 11 April 2001 - 07:19 pm
George Street and George Yard were almost, but not quite, an extension of one another, Sarah. Both intersected with the eastern extension of Wenthworth Street: George Street to the north, George Yard to the south. They didn't quite form a crossroads, George Street's confluence being 15-20 yards west of George Yard's.
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Wednesday, 11 April 2001 - 11:22 pm
Thanks AMP, so where does the line fall now then? I mean could i still walk the line of George Street if i legged it over Lolesworth Close and navigated Flower and Dean Walk or what? Sarah.
Author: A.M.P. Thursday, 12 April 2001 - 04:16 am
The area once covered by Flower and Dean, Thrawl and George Streets has been redeveloped for modern housing with a meandering, open plan layout. The line of George Street has gone. On the other hand George Yard still exists as Gunthorpe Street.
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Thursday, 12 April 2001 - 09:28 am
Yes i have been down Gunthorpe Street, what side were George Yard Buildings on coming from Whitechapel Road?
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia Thursday, 12 April 2001 - 12:45 pm
With regards to the Roebuck, I quote to you from James Tully's essay 'Ripper Jottings' in Peter Underwood's 1987 "JTR: 100 Years of Mystery:" 'The Roebuck is probably the best preserved example of what the local pubs were like during Jack's time. There is an atmosphere which I find unique. The landlord and his wife are always willing to talk about the murders, and assert staunchly that the Roebuck is THE "Ripper" pub, but it is in some of their evening clientele that I have found the greatest interest. In that pub, with its proximity to the site of what was probably the first murder, I invariably have the feeling that Jack is waiting round the corner.' Re: George Street and George Yard Buildings - it appears that R. Michael Gordon, in his new book "Alias Jack the Ripper" is either confused over the two or subtly eliding the two together, by claiming that Mary Kelly's short residence in George Street was actually in George Yard Buildings itself at the time of Severin Klosowski's stay there. Unfortunately, no reference is given for this claim (which is made on pages 39 and 152 of his book), so whether this is an honest mistake, an absolute misunderstanding on my part or something else remains to be seen.
Author: Martin Fido Thursday, 12 April 2001 - 04:21 pm
Sarah, Enter Gunthorpe Street under the arch from Whitechapel High Street and proceed to the other end - the t-junction with Wentworth Street. George Yard Buildings were on your left where you now have the extension of Toynbee Hall. George Yard Buildings covered the north west corner site at the junction. Stewart Evans visited the site when the building still stood in the 1960s, and took photographs proving conclusively that his identification of the building was correct - (as compared with erroneous ones in other books, e.g. Masters', or as loosely identified by other East End experts, e.g. Bill Fishman) - as it could be seen clearly that the Victorian gothic windows in Stewart's photograph were identical with those drawn by artists on the spot in 1888 depicting the entry to the murder site. All the best Martin F
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Thursday, 12 April 2001 - 05:02 pm
Thankyou Martin, are you ever going to tell me if you have read the afore mentioned book or not??! Sarah
Author: Martin Fido Friday, 13 April 2001 - 08:05 am
Hi Sarah, No, I haven't read Gerry White's book, nor, I think, any of the other writings mentioned under this thread. Martin
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Friday, 13 April 2001 - 08:46 am
Well I'm disappointed in you Martin!
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Friday, 13 April 2001 - 01:44 pm
Martin, can you tell me where i can get a copy of Eastend Underworld that you mentioned on a previous message somehwere, i've looked on Amazon but can't find it. Thankyou. Sarah
Author: Martin Fido Friday, 13 April 2001 - 05:29 pm
I don't know whether it's still in print, Sarah. But the publisher was Routledge & Kegan Paul. I'm sure there is a copy in the Bancroft Street public reference library if you have access to London and can hie you down to Mile End Road. Martin
Author: Richard Collier Sunday, 15 April 2001 - 10:24 am
Has any reader visited the Ten Bells before the bar was changed to the one which exists today? What was the original bar like? Can anyone tell me? I believe the bar was changed in the 1970's.
Author: Paul Begg Monday, 16 April 2001 - 04:19 am
The bar wasn't changed in the 1970s as far as I know; it was certainly where it is now when I was there at that time. The original bar was horseshoe shaped, in the typical fashion of many London pubs, and so designed so that the staff could serve a public bar area divided, often by glass panels, into four or five parts ( a surviving example of this division can be seen in the Argyle in Argyle Street by Oxford Street underground.
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Monday, 16 April 2001 - 09:16 am
Martin, as i am in NC, USA it may be a tad difficult for me to get to the Mile End Road right now, next time i am home i will certainly check it out, though who knows how many years that may be, but thanks anyway. Sarah
Author: Christopher T George Monday, 16 April 2001 - 10:36 am
Hello Sarah: You might want to check the excellent used book site, the Advanced Book Exchange, for that title. Go to http://www.abebooks.com/ Best regards Chris George
Author: Paul Begg Monday, 16 April 2001 - 11:49 am
East End Underworld can be a little difficult to find. Cheers Paul
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Monday, 16 April 2001 - 07:10 pm
Dear Paul, Ask Orpheus? Orsemary?
Author: Sarah Pleasanrt Wednesday, 18 April 2001 - 08:20 am
Thanks Christopher, i looked but it wasn't there, i'll keep trying, though it's difficult but i would really like to get hold of a copy. Sarah
Author: Stepan Poberowski Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 05:32 am
The Times of 12 November 1888 wrote: �She [Kelly] was in the habit of going nightly to a publichouse at Fish-street-hill; but Sergeant Bradshaw, on making inquiry at the house in question, found that she had not been there for upwards of a month past.� The Times, 12 Nov 1888 Fish Street Hill is off Lower Thames Street and run parallel to King William Street near London Bridge. What was this pub? Why Kelly visited up to the first week of October the pub in the City?
Author: The Viper Wednesday, 25 July 2001 - 06:54 am
Stepan, For hundreds of years prior to the opening of the new London Bridge in the early 1830s, Fish Street Hill was the main road leading down to the old London Bridge. When the Rennie bridge was constructed a short distance west of the old bridge (which remained in use until the new one was opened), a new approach was also built. Fish Street Hill is only a couple of hundred yards west of Billingsgate Market. Likely scenarios, therefore, are that Mary Kelly used to visit the pub to meet Joe Barnett, or that as a couple they used to meet Joe's work friends in there for a drink. Regards, V.
Author: Caroline Anne Morris Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 03:56 am
Hi All, In the late 1970s, I worked in a merchant bank in St. Mary at Hill, which runs parallel to Fish Street Hill, and leads straight down to Billingsgate. Pudding Lane, where the Great Fire of London is said to have started, runs parallel in between. I have many happy memories of lunch hours spent walking round the area (I wasn't always to be found in a pub! ). The market pubs were all open very early in the morning for the workers to have a pint and a spot of breakies. But the City closed down almost entirely after about 5.30pm, when all the office workers and bankers deserted it. Love, Caz
Author: Christopher T George Thursday, 26 July 2001 - 11:14 am
Hi, Caz and Viper: Thanks for those useful insights on pubs in and around Billingsgate and Fish Street Hill. Best regards Chris

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