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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Doctors only area
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: Medical / Forensic Discussions:
Doctors only area
Author: Thomas Ind
Sunday, 15 October 2000 - 02:16 pm |        | Hey look what I have found
In my frustration of not being able to get last week or last day I see that Stephen has finally given us our own medical section. I therefore thought that I could now create my own thread where I can talk to myself.
Well as I have cluttered up the board with yet another useless topic heading I have 2 questions that do not relate to any theory but just that I want to know
1 - When Eddowes was released from the cells was she relieased on her own or did the police go round the cells, find all those that had sobered up and release more than one at a time? Is there documentation of her release?
2 - Completely unrelated to JTR but enough people on the site who will know the answer. I went to a fabulous talk on Friday night by Roger Marwood (consultant gynaecologist at the CHelsea and Westminster). His Great Grand Father was William Mawood the executioner. He gave a talk on executions in the UK and of the life history of his relative. In that talk he talked of the time people were hung, drawn and quartered. What exactly happened during the 'drawing' and 'quartering' bit? |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Sunday, 15 October 2000 - 03:09 pm | | | To Dr Ind, from what I have learned of medieval history, to be hung, drawn, and quartered means , the criminal is hung, not dropped, till he is nearly unconscious, then taken down and tied to a kind of a sledge or hurdle, dragged through the streets, back to the scaffold, hung again but by the hands, then while hanging, disemboweled, castrated and the parts thrown onto a fire, this while the victim is conscious. When he eventualy dies, his body is taken down and cut into four quarters to be displayed in five different towns, he being beheaded also. I'd like to say I'm not completely bloodthirsty for knowing things like this, I just happen to be in the Richard III Soc Regards to all Rick |
Author: stephen stanley
Sunday, 15 October 2000 - 04:45 pm | | I've never been quite sur if the drawing refers to the dragging on the hurdle or the drawing out of the intestines......(a suitable punishment for all Lancastrians). As for Eddowes' release I,ve always been under the impression it was just her released,but I suppose there could well have been others..they just didn't get murdered....
Steve S |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Sunday, 15 October 2000 - 07:19 pm | | Tom -
As ye ask, so shall ye learn.
1. Eddowes: from the "Daily Telegraph" of October 12:
"Constable George Henry Hutt, 968, City Police: I am gaoler at Bishopsgate Station. On the night of Saturday, Sept. 29, at a quarter to ten o'clock, I took over prisoners, among them the deceased. I visited her several times until five minutes to one on Sunday morning. The inspector, being out visiting, I was directed by Sergeant Byfield to see if any of the prisoners were fit to be discharged. I found the deceased sober, and after she had given her name and address, she was allowed to leave. I pushed open the swing-door leading to the passage and said, "This way, missus." She passed along the passage to the outer door. I said to her, "Please pull it to." She replied, "All right. Good night, old cock." (Laughter). She pulled the door to within a foot of being close, and I saw her turn towards the left.
The Coroner: That was leading towards Houndsditch? - Yes.
The Foreman: Is it left to you to decide when a prisoner is sober enough to be released or not? - Not to me, but to the inspector or acting inspector on duty.
Is it usual to discharge prisoners who have been locked up for being drunk at all hours of the night? - Certainly."
As far as documentation beyond what is in the papers, I am afraid I do not know and would have to beseech those more knowledgeable than I to say. If such records existed, of course, they may very well have been thrown out years ago or destroyed in the Blitz along with other City Police papers.
2. Drawing and quartering: an excerpt from "Lord High Executioner: An Unashamed Look at Hangmen, Headsmen, and Their Kind," by Howard Engel (ISBN 1-55013-786-7):
"While a quick end on the block was the fate of high state prisoners guilty of treason, other traitors were not so lucky. For them the dread sentence of the law read: "That you and each of you, be taken to the place from whence you came, and from thence be drawn on a hurdle to the place of execution, where you shall be hanged by the neck, not till you are dead; that you be severally taken down, while yet alive, and your bowels be taken out and burnt before your faces - that your heads be then cut off, and your bodies cut into four quarters, to be at the King's disposal. And God Almighty have mercy on your souls.'
"If you have ever wondered exactly what being hanged, drawn and quartered meant, this was the doom that was handed down. This ghastly sentence was first uttered in the reign of Edward III in the fourteenth century, although a form of it was known as early as 1283, when David, the last native prince of Wales, was executed at Shrewsbury. . .[i]t was not until the Cato Street Conspiracy, a plot to assasinate the whole cabinet at dinner, in 1820, that this form of execution was done away with, and that under protest.
"In mitigation, it should be said that executioners used to make sure that their victims were more than half-hanged so that they would be insensible to the further indignities planned for them.
"In France, the practice of drawing and quartering was even more terrible than across the Channel. Although it was reserved almost exclusively for regicides and would-be regicides, its savagery can hardly be paralleled until modern warfare wrote the book on slaughter. Robert Francois Damiens, who attempted to murder Louis XV, was treated with boiling pitch and molten lead. Red-hot pincers were applied all over his body by the sweating executioners, who then fastened each of his limbs to a horse and urged the four to pull in four different directions. . .Francois Ravellac, the large, red-headed fanatic, the assasin of Henri IV, had been subjected to much the same treatment in 1610. In this case, one of the horses fainted."
Nothing like a little light reading at bed-time, I always say.
As ever,
CMD |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Sunday, 15 October 2000 - 07:26 pm | | | To any British posters, especialy Midlands. If you are interested, there is a t/v drama series on I.T.V. 9:10pm Sunday evenings. It's called WITHOUT MOTIVE. I think it's very good. They don't mention him but I think it's the Jack the Ripper mystery brought right bang up to date.It's very sensible, better than any Ripper film I've ever seen-- it's worth watching. RICK |
Author: Lisa Muir
Monday, 16 October 2000 - 01:26 am | | All this talk of medieval punishment reminds me of the afternoon I spent with my children at the "London Dungeon", where, indeed, they have displays of most any & every atrocity committed upon man. They had a guided attraction on Jack the Ripper (artistic licence taken, but still enjoyable); one called "Madame Guillotine"; and a barge ride through "Traitor's Gate" to meet the executioner. All in all, touristy as it was, I found it educational and great fun for my then not-quite 11yr. old son. My daughter who was 7 at the time will tell you otherwise, I'm sure.
Lisa |
Author: Johnno
Monday, 16 October 2000 - 11:41 pm | | Been there myself.
The "Jack the Ripper experience" was enjoyable, although highly dramatised. But, enjoyment is about the only reason why one would see it. :-)
When in "Miller's Court", did you notice they displayed the famous MJK photo backwards? |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Tuesday, 17 October 2000 - 09:48 am | | Hi All,
We 'did' the Dungeon for my daughter's 11th birthday, and I came away from the souvenir shop clutching a book I should probably with hindsight have left on the shelves - Feldy's JtR-The Final Chapter! Well, how was I to know it would turn out to be anything but final? :-)
Earlier this year we did Madame Tussauds, where we found Charlie Chaplin standing inexplicably in front of framed copies of the Dear Boss letter and Saucy Jacky postcard. Tourists are probably now back home telling their friends that CC was JtR. Oh well, they were both famous for their silent roles I guess....
Love,
Caz |
Author: Lisa Muir
Tuesday, 17 October 2000 - 02:18 pm | | Yes, the M.J.K. photo is reversed and one of the victims was laid-out on a stoop, as I recall. I also want to state that I did bring my daughter to see Lord Elgin's Marbles, and the Rosetta Stone. I didn't subject her solely to the nighttime Ripper walk & the Dungeon (On the slight chance that her father stumbles upon this page).
Lisa |
Author: stephen stanley
Tuesday, 17 October 2000 - 04:51 pm | | Must admit, I took my kids there as part of a 'farewell to London' before we moved to Leicester...must have had some effect..have had to reclaim the A-Z from their bookshelf!! Mind you I was shattered at the developments in the Spitalfields area....I used to use a Pub in Bishopsgat regulaly in the 70's, and there was still plenty of period atmosphere then..the new Liverpool St. is definately a 'carbuncle'
Steve S. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Tuesday, 17 October 2000 - 05:12 pm | | CMD
Thanks a lot.
I was thinking of MJK. Bowels removed, attempt at decapitation and etc. It must be very difficult to decapitate someone and cut them into quarter even after they are dead. A good butchers axe/cleaver would be necessary. I was wondering if JTR was trying to hang draw and quarter in his own way.
A far fetched idea and no account for organ removal but a different angle anyway. |
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