Author: Thomas Ind
Saturday, 19 February 2000 - 07:18 pm |        |
I know this is a far fetched idea and although it came to me during my research on THO I must clarify again that I do not consider him a suspect.
I have always thought of JTR running away from the scene of a crime (although I know the Royalists consider that he had a carriage). What about a bicycle? He could get from Brenner to Mitre square quickly: have a nice quick escape; would not be noticed if he was covered in blood as on the road at night would be further away from pedestrains; would have a quieter escape and introduction to his victims; may not have been noticed by a predominantly pedestrian group of witnesses; would not have been so easily stopped by police.
I cannot think of anything that suggests the presence of a bicycle at any murder scene. Does anyone else know of one. |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Sunday, 20 February 2000 - 03:54 am | |
Hello.
From what I've read, the first modern "safety" bicycles (rear wheel chain drive, direct steering, front and rear wheels the same size) had just came out in 1887 with the production of the "Rover Cob" and the "Rudge Bicyclette". But they didn't really become popular until the 1890's, because the tires were solid rubber, making for a bumpy ride. (J.B. Dunlop had just finished inventing the inner tube at the time of the Whitechapel murders, so they wouldn't have been in production yet). Though there were those old jobbies with the big front wheel, I tend to think a bicycling JR would have had a rough ride and/or would have looked a bit strange on the streets of the East End in 1888.
Hope this helps? |
Author: Thomas Ind
Sunday, 20 February 2000 - 08:17 am | |
| Again in relation to THO but not because I think he was JTR. I know THO was a keen cyclist when in Durham (prior to 1887) and also cycled from London to Ascot for the races so clearly there were bicycles around at this time (even if they didn't have inflatable tyres). |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Sunday, 20 February 2000 - 02:40 pm | |
As I understand it Tom, R.J. is saying that the Penny Farthing bicycle was the common form in the late eighties and prossibly what Openshaw was riding. My thaughts on this are that any form of bycicle would be expensive and not the type of thing the average East Ender would own or even see on a daily basis. It seems to me that it would only draw attention to anyone riding it through the early morning streets of Whitechapel.
Wolf. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Sunday, 20 February 2000 - 04:05 pm | |
OK Wolf
I submit
It is sounding even more ridiculous now than it was originally.
An example of a good idea but clearly absolute tripe!
Thank you RJ. Great informative post |
Author: JacksBack
Sunday, 20 February 2000 - 08:58 pm | |
Do not chastise thyself Dr. Tom, everyone has been there themselves at one time or tother, I believe. This case tis Vexation personified. Keep up the great posts and new ideas, we need new ideas all the time.
Your servant and admirer, JiB |
Author: Scott Nelson
Monday, 21 February 2000 - 01:28 am | |
| Has anyone thought to ask Patrick McGoohan who, in his humble opinion, JtR is likely to have been? |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Monday, 21 February 2000 - 02:12 am | |
| It would have to be James Kelly, PRISONER 1167. Wolf. |
Author: Jim Leen
Monday, 21 February 2000 - 01:25 pm | |
Hello Everybody,
Just to muddy the waters slightly the first modern bicycle, rear wheel chain drive, direct steering, front and rear wheels the same size, was actually produced circa 1825 and a facsimile of it may viewed in the Transport Museum in Glasgow, Scotland.
Anyway, if JTR did use a bike where the heck did he stow his Gladstone bag and cape?
Thanking you etc
Jim Leen |
Author: Melanie Johnson
Monday, 21 February 2000 - 07:12 pm | |
Jim -
The Gladstone bag is a myth, according to Sugden. It grew out of misguided press reports (I believe) stemming from Fanny Mortimer's report of the Berner St outrage.
-Mel |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Tuesday, 22 February 2000 - 02:15 pm | |
Tom, here's something interesting. From a letter to the Times:
I beg to suggest the organization of a small force of plain clothes constables mounted on bicycles for the rapid and noiseless patrolling of the streets and roads by night.
Wolf. |
Author: Christopher T. George
Wednesday, 23 February 2000 - 12:24 pm | |
Hi Wolf:
Might I ask, what is the date of the issue of The Times containing the letter to the editor that you quoted in which the correspondent suggested "the organization of a small force of plain clothes constables mounted on bicycles for the rapid and noiseless patrolling of the streets and roads by night"? Also who was the letter writer? Thanks in advance for providing this additional information.
Chris George |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Wednesday, 23 February 2000 - 12:38 pm | |
Sorry C-G, it's from McCormick so there is no other information provided.
Wolf. |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Wednesday, 23 February 2000 - 06:26 pm | |
Jim, can there be some mistake about the date of 1825 for the bicycle in the Transport Museum in Glasgow? History does give credit to a Scotsman, a blacksmith named Kirkpatrick MacMillan, for developing the first bicycle with pedals; but this wasn't until 1839, and it was more or less his own private invention and never mass produced. The big front wheeled "Velocipede" didn't show up until 1865.
I can't help but agree with Wolf that a bicycle would be both expensive and rare in the East End in 1888.
For anyone interested, a good on-line encyclopedia of bicycles called "Bicyclopedia" can be found at the following link:
http://pwp.starnetinc.com/olderr/bcwebsite/
Thanks. |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 08:21 am | |
| Can I make an interesting point about the piece of apron found in Goulston street ? We have assumed that it was used to carry away Eddowes' uterus and kidney from the scene of the crime ( if it had been used for wiping hands , why didn't Jack just wipe his hands at the crime scene ? ) but the fact is that these organs were not found in Goulston street with the piece of material. Where did they go then ? If they had been taken to a house , why was the material not dumped in the house ? It is my theory that the organs were put in a carriage and the carriage dropped the murderer off at Goulston Street to allow him to make his way home. Or the gang were splitting up for safety reasons. Anyway the killer found himself with the piece of apron in his pocket or whatever and , realising it could be incriminating ,he threw it away. He then decided to add his graffiti message on the wall , for a ' joly '. |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 08:38 am | |
| As to the Liz Stride murder , Israel Schwartz testified that the murderer threw Stride down in the footway after trying to pull her into the street. I think it is very plausible that the killer and Pipeman were trying to get Liz to come into a carriage parked elsewhere , where she could be safely dissected without anyone noticing. The yard of the Socialist club could surely NOT have been the intended murder site as although dark , somebody could have come out of the meeting at any time and discovered what was going on. The man could have said : " Come with me in my coach and we'll go somewhere private " but Liz was suspicious so she said " Not tonight , some other night ". Schwartz turned up c.12.50 am and witnessed what was going on , so Pipeman chased him away ; I don't believe he was a watchman for the killer as surely he would have been stood at the corner of Berner Street / Commercial Street to spot somebody like Schwartz BEFORE he entered Berner Street. Anyway , Liz refused to come so the murderer dragged her into the yard and cut her throat. She couldn't be left alive or she could have identified her attacker. The persistence of the killer in trying to get Liz to come with him suggests his accomplices were waiting somewhere nearby and didn't want to be kept waiting. |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 08:40 am | |
| Remember these theories are only my opinion , its okay to believe something different if you want. But I just can't see Jack on a pushbike riding around with his knives , can you ? |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 10:42 am | |
| I'm well aware there are various theories about the Goulston Street writing and also about why the apron was cut and how it got to Goulston Street. Anyone care for a debate ? |
Author: JacksBack
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 10:18 pm | |
| Simon, I only speak for myself in telling you that you have done some exciting new thinking on this case and proposed some interesting new "slants" of thought. Good luck with future ideas..JiB |
Author: Simon Owen
Tuesday, 29 February 2000 - 08:08 am | |
| Thank you JiB , I only aim to please! I am not sure , but I think that the bicycle lamp had not been invented in the 1880s thus if so this would proclude cycling around Whitechapel in the dark , affecting both police and murderer , due to the poor street lighting of the time. If the bicycle lock had not been invented either then Jack may have found his cycle missing when he returned from commiting his nefarious deeds. Again , we must look at the safety aspects of riding around Whitechapel in the dark and I think we would find uneven pavements , potholes in the road , offal and rubbish left lying in the street contributing to the hazards deterring a cycler , plus the potential for squeaking and creaking noises a ricketty bicycle might make. As stated before , a bicycle would have been an unusual sight in the poor East End and may well have attracted unwanted attention from police , scruffy urchins or undesirables. So , in the end , I think riding a bicycle to commit the crimes is out of the question for Jack. |
Author: mark.coldwell
Tuesday, 29 February 2000 - 03:41 pm | |
| good point simon,but i think some of the points you made above could also be attributed to a carriage as well, especially the noise of a couple of horses hoofes trampeling on the cobblestones. |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Tuesday, 29 February 2000 - 06:57 pm | |
Hello everyone.
According to the Bicyclopedia, the dry cell battery, the carbide lamp, and the bicycle headlight using a generator were all introduced in the late 1890's. If you want to see the sort of bicycle Jack the Ripper would have been riding at night in 1888, scroll up to the post of Wednesday, February 23 and click on the "Bicyclopidia" link. Once at the site, click on the "N" and go to the article on "Night Cycling". It shows an illustration of a highwheeler bicycle with a kerosene hub lamp. Its light is described as "feeble".
My guess is that killer (killers?) travelled on foot. |
Author: Simon Owen
Thursday, 02 March 2000 - 04:54 am | |
| My guess is that city people would get used to the sounds of horses and carriages at night , much as I got used to the sound of cars at night when I lived in London. Blasted car alarms though... |
Author: JacksBack
Thursday, 09 March 2000 - 01:22 am | |
| As much as I encouraged you in the note above to keep up your "exciting new thinking" I must draw the line at the theory that Jack the Ripper was able to use a bicyle to move around Whitechapel by having a very loud and obnoxious "Bike Alarm" attached....JiB |
Author: Simon Owen
Thursday, 09 March 2000 - 04:49 am | |
| I didn't say that , did I ? |
Author: Guy Hatton
Thursday, 09 March 2000 - 08:50 am | |
| Nope, don't think you did! |
Author: Sarah R. Jacobs
Thursday, 25 January 2001 - 04:25 pm | |
Somewhere on this board (I apologize -- I don't know exactly where) is a very good thread about the existence, during the time of the JtR murders, of late-night omnibusses. This is a possible mode of conveyance, then...
Sarah |
