Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 07:54 am |        |
Hi Tom,
Good to see you back, if only temporarily, to put the record straight. Apologies for any misrepresentation of your own opinion in my posts. I'm more than happy to accept what you say about the jagged cuts made on Eddowes not being the obvious choice of a surgeon, and that overall your belief is that JtR had no medical or surgical knowledge, as opposed to not needing any to do what he did.
Hope to see you here again as time allows.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Peter Wood
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 08:18 am | |
Hi guys
Scott: Just a brief 'aside'. You reminded me of the time I got called out to an old chap's flat because he hadn't been seen for three weeks. It was the height of summer, sweltering temperatures outside and all his windows were closed. Inside, the chap had lain dead on his bed for the three weeks. His little dog had got hungry. His little dog had eaten the head. The body had corrupted (I remember the swarm of flies emerging from his stomach when the undertakers moved the body later) and we still had to call out a medical examiner. Not to ascertain the cause of death, but just to ascertain whether or not the guy was dead. Obviously, me being a layman in all things medical, my description of a headless rotted body wasn't good enough. The medical chap duly turned up, stuck his head round the door, said "Yep, he's dead", turned on his heel and went home!
Oh happy days!
Peter. |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 08:42 am | |
| I think Jack displayed expertise in one area that I'm sure no Dr. ever studies in medical school and that was swift, efficient throat cutting. I don't imagine that an average person with no background could leap upon another human being, swiftly subdue them, and slash their throat with two quick fatal cuts, all in total silence. There has to be a certain amount of skill there and its not a skill that would be taught in any medical school. It would either be taught in a slaughterhouse or as part of some kind of military training. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 09:14 am | |
Diana
Perhaps he had military skill. Here is the first image  |
Author: Thomas Ind
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 09:23 am | |
This is the second image and if this works I will then explain
 |
Author: Thomas Ind
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 09:31 am | |
OK
Now imagine a cardboard box that you want to cut open. Hold a knife flat like in the second picture and a straight economical incision is made in one movement.
Hold it in a stabbing manner, and the wound made is a sawing one as many uneconomical passes of the knife are needed to maker the same incision. This would provide an uneven incision in an abdomen as in Eddowes.
This answer obviously posses 2 more questions. 1 - if this hypothesis is correct (and it is) then the Tabram wounds are not that much different and using the wounds alone to discount her a a victim would be wrong (forgetting other things). 2 - A medical man would carry a smaller knife than the one proposed for JTR as it would be easier to hide and more efficient for the job.
On the last point I know I have argued that the knife could have been smaller than that initially proposed as a small knife used with force often provides wounds similar to those of a large knife so I read in a forensic text book. However, that is another thread altogether. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 10:39 am | |
| Yet again I see the subject of medical skill brought into the frame.I agree with Thomas Ind that the killer had military medical skill.It is most interesting to note the comments made by those who have seen cadavers cut up for varying purposes. But in stating that I have watched hundreds of world class snooker games for over 40 years but that does not mean that I can play the game.Experience has no substitute.The weight and type of knife used by Jack would also have made a diffence to him.Talking from my own experiences (as a gutman) the correct tool for the job can save time and energy.A gutmans knife ( plastic handle ) can weigh as little as 80-90 grams. My chosen knife weighed around 612 grams.A heavier knife has it's advantages.One lets the knife do the work to a certain degree.But in stating that one must know how to wield the knife to begin with.Many people could not do to an animal what Jack did to his victims.Any person who believes that any Tom, Dick, or Harry could achieve what Jack achieved under the same circumstances are incorrect in their beliefs.In fact it would be a most interesting test to obtain a dead pig and place it in a very dim location and then watch anyone (who thought it could be done )to extract the kidney or whatever in a set period of time at great speed.Many people would throw up before the task was undertaken while others would end up doing an injury to themselves in such conditions. Also if I were in Jack's shoes and a surgeon I would not make text book incisions on my victims which would be asking for trouble.I would make the incisions appear to be the work of someone without my experience.The game would be to lead the police away from me and not to me. As for what can be achieved in a very few minutes suffice to state that I have gutted a cow ( vital organs and suet already removed) in less that five minutes.This includes cutting away the pancreas and washing it in clean water and then folding it ready for storage.Then man-handling the stomach and contents which can weigh over 80lbs onto a table and hopper and then sorting it out.Also one can forget about all the nonsense in relation to the killer being coverd in blood.It does not work like that if the throat is cut first.In fact my job was not bloody at all.It is a misconception that it is. |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 11:00 am | |
Hi All,
Something just occurred to me, which I feel stupid for not thinking about before. Now this is just a theory, but is it possible, that is if Jack is a Medical Man(and I'm not saying he is.) is it not possible he may be drunk or possibly under the influence of drugs during his killings? It could explain why some of his incisions seem precise and others seem more eratic.(Different levels of intoxication maybe?)
Now I'm not saying his a Medical Man. I'm still on the fence of the subject. But it could explain a few things.
Regards,
Chris H. |
Author: Grailfinder
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 12:43 pm | |
Chris.
I think you could be right about drugs playing a part in the case? After all, we know he took a bit of 'Crack' and I'm sure he smoked a bit of MaryJane?
sorry! GF |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 02:08 pm | |
I agree with you Ivor, there is no substitution for experience. I have watched football (American football) for over 30 years, but I could not begin to think that I could even coach a high school team. But with those 100+ autopsies (115 to be exact) comes the knowledge gained from such places as classes in forensic and police sciences and the experience gained in investigating 147 homicides. One of the best courses was a one week course in post mortem decomposition taught at the body farm.
As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out regarding any medical, or surgical experience in the killer. There is however a degree of anatomical knowledge in the killer. Where this knowledge was gained or how it was gained I am not sure. Slicing the neck first makes for a certain amount of blood. It is also reasonable to assume the killer would have some blood on him, especially after rooting around inside the body. The body may not bleed after death, but the blood doesn’t magically disappear either. At the time of death the blood. Dr. Ind please feel free to jump in and correct me if I am wrong. But 30-60 minutes, post mortem the blood in the body loses its ability to coagulate (clot). This is due to the release of fibrinolgen in the blood. So the blood is still in the body and in a liquid state, this along with other bodily fluids makes for a messy situation.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 02:42 pm | |
I think we are slowly drifting toward the conclusion that Jack must have had some kind of expertise but it didn't come from a medical school.
1) He swiftly and efficiently slit throats. (not taught in medical school)
2)Although under great time constraints (the policeman's beat) he used a slow and inefficient method to slit open the abdomen (Dr. Ind's post above)
3)He started his incision at the base of the abdomen rather than the sternum which is not normative (I got this from a post somewhere up the page)
4) He seemed to have some knowledge of the organs
but not like that of a Dr. And his removal was not that of an expert. (When people bought poultry or fish at the meat market in 1888 was it dressed out?)
My point one (above) leads back to Tabram's soldier. One who has served in battle would have had practice in throat-slitting.
Here in America, after the end of the Viet Nam war we had a number of young men who came home half-mad from the horrors they had seen. They sometimes had a delusion that they were in battle again and they would attack those around them, sometimes with tragic results. Before I pull this thread off the subject, I think I will start another! |
Author: Peter Wood
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 04:28 pm | |
Jack's 'expertise' may have come from the street.
I know many people who didn't stay more than an hour a day in school, but have learned more from the street than they could at any University.
Jacky may have been shown how to 'swiftly and efficiently' cut throats by a friend. Or he may just have been desperate. Desperation borne of necessity. |
Author: Thomas Ind
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 05:14 pm | |
| Chris has already showed my memory to be slightly inventive (sigmoid inverted in rectum not a slashed rectum) but I half remember Stewart Evans once giving an example of a serial killer who extracted organs and who subsequently proved to have no medical knowledge. Does anyone know what I am thinking of or is my mind making things up? |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 07:40 pm | |
Many killers have cut up their victims and have removed body parts etc and they have had no medical experience as such.Many killers have also done the same and they have had medical knowledge.Each case must be taken on it's own merits.
Scott, I saw a film about the work they do at the body farm which was very interesting in many various aspects.I think you are correct in your statement about Jack. The question is, how much medical knowledge did he have? As we know this question has always been under debate.One medical expert will say "none" while another will say " a lot". |
Author: Katarina
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 10:23 pm | |
I do agree with scott
I lost my other username..ripper girl damn casebook....but anyway take care guys |
Author: Ally
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 11:17 am | |
*raises eyebrows*
*prepares scathing comment*
*decides it's not worth it*
*eats a brownie* |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 11:31 am | |
Ahhhh, Ally likes Brownies. Now I know what to bribe her with in case I do something bad! 
Wink, Wink, Nudge, Nudge, SAY NO MORE!  |
Author: Ally
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 11:44 am | |
Make sure they are either triple fudge with chocolate chips or the ones with that marshmallow swirly stuff on top!!!
*droooool* |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 12:41 pm | |
*Note to self, Triple Fudge Chocolate Chip Brownies, or Marshmellow Swirl Brownies*
Got Ya Ally.
By the way.*Puts a bucket under you to catch the drool* |
Author: Stuart
Wednesday, 13 November 2002 - 09:57 am | |
I don't know whether or not this is useful...but here goes.
I used to be a slaughterman. More precisely, I used to remove intestines and stomachs.
Not the most skilled job on earth I agree, but it filled 3 months of spare time when I needed money.
Before I did this job my "knowledge" of body parts extended to cutting up an eyeball in school biology.
When I got the abattoir job I did no training, and was given a sharp knife and all the kit I would need (gloves, hat, boots etc) and proceeded to just dive in there. Easy.
All the organs in a cow, sheep, pig etc are pretty recogniseable as such.
It's not like you can pick a liver up and go "What's this one Fred?"
I've read some books on JTR now and the medical angle always puzzled me. I reckon anyone could rummage about in a human body and find a part that allegedly takes "knowledge".
Admittedly I never actually killed them or cut them up, but the guys who did always told me it was easy enough. Sharp knife, slit, away you go.
Just my 2 pennyworth.
Cheers all. |
