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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 904
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:07 am: | 
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My candidate is Henry Lee Lucas.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/lucas/womb_2.html
I don't think he was polished like Bundy and I don't think he was middle class like Rader. |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 299
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:17 am: |
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maybe sutcliffe, or gary ridgeway....? |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 686
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 3:57 pm: |
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The Cincinnati Streetcar Killer.
Stan |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 929
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 8:23 pm: |
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Arthur Shawcross sounds a good one to me.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 688
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 9:45 pm: |
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If by "known" you mean identified, how about Vincenzo Verzeni, Gordon Cummins and/or Edmund Kemper?
Stan |
Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 668
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:18 pm: |
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The Cleveland Torso Murderer comes to mind...
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1062
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:38 pm: |
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I always like to bring up Chikatilo, but Vacher and others are up there too.
Bundy apparently saved body parts too, so he may be closer than a lot of people think.
But the more comparisons we can get, the better... It can fill out the various different possibilities of what Jack may have been like.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 930
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 6:21 am: |
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I think, Dan, with my sophisticated psychological profiling skills I can tell you that Jack was a human, a law-breaker and a killer who would sometimes be awake at night-time. He would also have been in the East End in the autumn of 1888.
I think we've got him.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 7:04 am: |
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Hi Philip,
Question: How many surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Answer: A fish!
(In other words, the five word rule didn't like it when I tried posting "Huh?")
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Maria Giordano
Chief Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 530
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 9:50 am: |
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Shawcross is a good one but I always think of him as an old fashioned Richard Chase.
Thanks for the laugh, Dan. Not many of them around the ol Board lately.
Mags
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David Radka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dradka
Post Number: 94
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 11:25 am: |
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I don't think comparing JtR to serial killers makes a whole lot of sense from the standpoint of solving the case. Instead I'd compare him to other psychopaths, because that gets us a lot closer to him right from the start. The best psychopathic case history I know for analyzing JtR is Cleckley's Stanley--who was not a serial killer--read about him in "The Mask of Sanity." As far as serial killers go, I was taken aback by Ms Comer's statement above:
"I don't think he was polished like Bundy and I don't think he was middle class like Rader."
In my view exactly the opposite would be true, if you wanted to compare JtR to serial killers. To me, JtR is comparable to a Bundy/Rader type of psychopathic killer.
David M. Radka
Author: "Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders"
Casebook Dissertations Section
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 300
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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I think Shawcross is in the ballpark, but mainly because he targeted prostitutes, and cut them up. However, unlike JTR, Shawcross is a modern serial killer, who drove a car and deposited bodies around in various locations which he later revisted. In this sense, it is difficult to compare JTR with any modern serial killers, many of whom use the automobile for transport.
Chase I think is more out of control and raving than JTR was likely to have been.
The closest I can think of is Sutcliffe, maybe Rader or Bundy, although I don't necessarily think JTR was so sophisticated as these. Sutcliffe is closer.
But then, I don't know about a lot of the serial killers that have been listed by other people here. I read about Kemper, and did not think he sounded too much like JTR (for some reason).
RH |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 301
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 12:46 pm: |
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David,
Are you saying that these guys were not psychopaths? I don't want to get you started but according to wikipedia:
"The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental and behavioral disorders (see also: DSM cautionary statement), defines antisocial personality disorder (in other words, psychopathy) as a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honor financial obligations
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
The manual lists the following additional necessary criteria:
* The individual is at least age 18 years.
* There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.
* The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode."
According to this, I would think most serial killers fit the definition of psychopath. Even looking at other definitions of psychopathy, it still seems to me that most SKs would be psychopaths. Am I missing something.
Well, I should also explain that I never bothered to read the A?R thread, so I am sure that this has been discussed before (and I feel I am going to regret asking this question). But you always seem to fire a shot like this, mentioning psychopathy in a manner designed to undercut the relevance of the discussion at hand... why?
RH |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 931
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 7:42 pm: |
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I do also agree that Gordon Cummins is a good comparison and oft overlooked.
Someone taking advantage of a period of darkness - both literal and metaphoric - in which to take prostitutes to quiet places, strangle, stab and mutilate them and all in a short period of time.
Not for nothing was he known as The Blackout Ripper. I happen to find him one of the most unsettling of the batch as well. I'm not going into Cornwell territory, but I have to say even in photos... those eyes... scary man.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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matfelon
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 1:13 am: |
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I'd compare him to Fritz Honka.
Honka murdered four elderly prostitutes in the 1970's in germany. After being caught he said: "Jack the Ripper told me to do so."
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Maria Giordano
Chief Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 532
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 2:32 pm: |
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Now there's a case of someone who looks like a serial killer! Wouldn't want to come face to face with HIM in Mitre Square!
Mags
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David Radka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dradka
Post Number: 101
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
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Mr. House wrote:
1. “According to {the categories shown in the DSM IV} I would think most serial killers fit the definition of psychopath. Even looking at other definitions of psychopathy, it still seems to me that most SKs would be psychopaths. Am I missing something.”
>>Sexual serial killers are often not psychopaths. They may be psychotic, paranoid schizophrenic, or suffering from tertiary syphilis or a brain tumor instead. Psychopathy may or may not be present together with one or more of the other conditions. More often psychopathy occurs by itself.
2. “Well, I should also explain that I never bothered to read the A?R thread, so I am sure that this has been discussed before (and I feel I am going to regret asking this question). But you always seem to fire a shot like this, mentioning psychopathy in a manner designed to undercut the relevance of the discussion at hand... why?”
>>You thought enough of the original A?R thread to make a post to it asking people to stop posting there, and instead to post to the thread where your theory concerning Aaron Kosminski was being discussed, an utterly classless act on your part. I haven’t posted my more detailed critique of your work yet, but I believe I’ll be getting around to that soon.
David M. Radka
Author: "Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders"
Casebook Dissertations Section
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Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1070
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
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David, David, David...
"Sexual serial killers are often not psychopaths. They may be psychotic, paranoid schizophrenic, or suffering from tertiary syphilis or a brain tumor instead."
...or?
"Paranoid schizophrenic" is a term for a certain kind of psychosis. Those suffering from syphilis or a tumor that adversely affects their mental state so that they become killers would tend to fall under the psychotic umbrella as well.
But then considering that when you use the term "psychopath" you are often describing traits that are actually those of psychotics instead, it's not surprising you don't understand what the other terms mean either.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 483
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 12:18 am: |
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When placed in an environment removed from temptation (i.e. a SK going to prison) a psychopath often becomes a model prisoner. A psychotic, on the other hand, behaves the same regardless of environment. Big difference between the two.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 484
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 12:21 am: |
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I would compare Jack to the Zodiac Killer for obvious reasons, and also for that fact that they both got away with it. |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 789
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 1:04 pm: |
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Mr. T.C. Wescott writes:
"When placed in an environment removed from temptation (i.e. a SK going to prison) a psychopath often becomes a model prisoner."
Yes, and this is one reason, in my humblest of opinions, why Mr. Sugden's dismissal of the Kosminski theory isn't as strong as it could be. Kosminski being listed as a harmless lunatic doesn't tell us of his behavior on the 'outside'; indeed one of the few specific acts we know about him was his picking up a knife in a threatening manner.
Meanwhile, re-read the description of Tommy Cutbush in Broadmoor. If that man wasn't on opiates, I'll be my Uncle Radka's monkey. Our friends the British were very big on stuffing opium down the throats of the unruly in the 19th Century. Or so I'm told. RP |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 792
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 6:34 pm: |
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Besides the aforementioned Gordon Cummins, David Napper, William "the Mutilator" MacDonald & Lucian Staniak (the Red Spider) spring to (my) mind.
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 672
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
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" Our friends the British were very big on stuffing opium down the throats of the unruly in the 19th Century."
The Brits had some objectionable medical practices as well.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1251
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:06 pm: |
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Dear R.J.
If thats true that the authorities did shove opium down Cutbush's throat, it would have made him sedate,after a period of time.. That makes a lot of sense, friend and Raider fan.
I've also seen people pick up knives and make threatening gestures accompanied by threats...but they were just pissed off. They weren't psychotics. One was a guy pushed to the edge by his nagging girlfriend. I'm glad that someone was there to calm the guy down...me. Another was a dude in high school who was tired of being shaken down by other guys for lunch money. They didn't bug him after that.
Honestly,if Kosminski was as whacked out as some feel ...wouldn't you think that he might have more than this one incident in his background to mention from acquaintances or family members ? Just a thought....
I go with the Cleveland Torso Slayer and/or The Zo-zo-zodiac Killer. |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 790
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:48 pm: |
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Howard -- It was either Dr. Tuke's magic pills or it was the knife. Either way, the fellow was manic in 1891, and a walking shadow in 1894. Sort of like the Raiders: two short seasons ago compared to this woeful season of Hell. RP |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 696
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 8:01 pm: |
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Hi all,
If we're going to include the uncaught, I'll add Bible John to my previous posts. He seemed to have some issues with the female reproductive system as well.
Stan |
Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1073
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 11:37 am: |
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RJ,
Psychopaths in prison acting like model prisoners wouldn't have any bearing on Kosminski or Cutbush, who are probably the two main psychotic suspects.
Psychopaths are generally manipulative and quite rational -- control freaks. Psychotics are generally not really dealiing with reality -- out of control.
While psychotics can certainly have sane periods, once they are locked away and under observation any violent tendencies would manifest themselves at some point. Certainly over a span of years it would become very evident.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 923
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 2:34 pm: |
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But isn't the issue of possible sedation a valid one? Wasn't it common to place these people in a drug induced stupor to make them more manageable? And if the administrator of a mental facility admits that one of his patients got out of control it reflects badly on him so wouldn't such incidents be played down? |
David Radka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dradka
Post Number: 108
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 10:00 pm: |
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Mr. Norder wrote:
1. “David, David, David... {Mr. Radka wrote:} "Sexual serial killers are often not psychopaths. They may be psychotic, paranoid schizophrenic, or suffering from tertiary syphilis or a brain tumor instead." {Mr. Norder answered:} ...or? "Paranoid schizophrenic" is a term for a certain kind of psychosis. Those suffering from syphilis or a tumor that adversely affects their mental state so that they become killers would tend to fall under the psychotic umbrella as well. But then considering that when you use the term "psychopath" you are often describing traits that are actually those of psychotics instead, it's not surprising you don't understand what the other terms mean either.”
>>Mr. Norder essentially takes my writing out of context, and then attempts to ascribe incompetence to me. The reason he does so clearly follows his pattern: The number of people reading this who are capable of discriminating among psychological terms is small, and the number who aren’t is great. When subscriptions to ‘Ripper Notes’ start to taper off, Mr. Norder dreams up some outlandish stunt that causes readers to take note, and cash starts flowing in again from the airheads who have more dollars than sense.
My above passage responds to Mr. House, whose post indicated he was unable to discriminate among psychological terms. He stated that he thought all sexual serial murderers were psychopaths, because the description of Antisocial Personality Disorder found in the DSM-IV seems to match the characteristics of all the SSKs he knows of. In other words, Mr. House thinks that a SSK may or may not have various different grave psychiatric problems, but one grave problem that he would have to have is psychopathy. In my response to him, I am pointing out that neither an antisocial personality in general nor a psychopathic antisocial personality in particular is necessary for being an SSK. An SSK may or may not have APD and/or psychopathy; some do, some don’t. What is necessary from a psychological standpoint for being an SSK is a grave psychiatric disorder, disturbance or disability of some kind, but not necessarily psychopathy. This could arise from a number of grave psychiatric states, and I named the most common underlying causes for him: Psychosis, paranoid schizophrenia, tertiary syphilis, and brain tumor as well as psychopathy. I am in my passage not attempting to make a complete statement of the dynamic interrelationships of all grave psychiatric disorders as Mr. Norder implies that I am incompetently doing in his taking me out of context, I am only attempting to give a simple listing of the possible root causes of someone’s being an SSK.
In order to be a serial sexual killer you have to have something gravely wrong with you—it isn’t enough to simply be neurotic, depressed, angry with women, hotheaded, extremely horny, or excitable. Psychiatry provides a way to distinguish between grave and mild disorders. A person with a grave disorder is one who experiences a complete absence of development, failure or dissolution of the relationships of the various dynamical elements of a normal psyche, whereas a mildly affected person maintains a normal, if not sometimes tenuous structural relationship of these elements, despite perhaps suffering from illusions, problems, unhappiness or failures in life. Some gravely disordered people can be saved or at least helped by direct intervention on the part of a psychiatrist or a medical doctor, some can’t, but the key word is intervention. The gravely affected, who are in the minority, are like a drowning person who must be fortuitously plucked from the sea by someone else or dies. The mildly affected, who are in the majority, are in fact normal people; despite their problems or relative oddness, they are capable of swimming for themselves. What psychologists and psychiatrists do for the latter is not intervention, but simply teaching, leading or sometimes tricking them to swim more properly.
PSYCHOSIS is often used as a general term that basically means “grave psychiatric problem involving aberrant mental state.” BRAIN TUMORS or SYPHILIS my result in psychosis. So may heredity, or various medical problems. Psychosis may also develop from severe psychic pain or trauma, psychological conflict, infections, or unfortunate psychological mis-development.
PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENIA is a type of psychosis that involves the mind’s inability to interrupt itself. Without this rational ability, disparate thoughts run together in a bizarre manner, leading first to great misery and upheaval, and later to an autonomic correction mechanism unfortunately resulting in a split or separation from reality. Symptoms are well known, and can be traced passing through various geographical areas throughout the history of Europe. This has led some researchers to conclude that a virus causes it. The victim supposedly has a slight cold for a day or two while the virus destroys that part of the brain that enables voluntary thought interruption, then the psychiatric condition develops. Since most schizophrenic symptoms seem to begin at age 18, it is thought that hormonal conditions at about that age may be responsible for susceptibility to the particular virus involved.
PSYCHOPATHY is the only grave psychiatric disorder that does not involve an aberrant mental state. No separation from reality occurs with respect to the psychopath. Instead, a complete failure to develop the various elements of a normal personality, such as empathetic feelings, conscience, adequate inhibitory mechanisms, fear of social sanctions, caring for others, or a reliably structured id, ego and superego occurs in early childhood. While a psychopath is capable of thinking normally, his actions are antisocial, self-ruinous, ineffably narcissistic, and often more irrational than even those of the most psychotic or retarded people. He makes many severe problems for himself and those around him. The cause of psychopathy is still unknown, but it is not heredity, since in the case of identical twins one may be a psychopath and the other not. Because no mental aberration or even neurosis exists in the psychopath, no psychiatric treatment of any kind has shown promise in treatment. A psychopath is a constitutionally or temperamentally antisocial person.
ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER is a relatively new catchall category that equates PSYCHOPATHY with SOCIOPATHY. The American Psychological Association adopted it for various complex reasons I won’t go into unless asked.
SOCIOPATHY is the condition of the majority of habitual criminals, gang members, and so on. A sociopath is an environmentally antisocial person, in other words, one who has learned an antisocial lifestyle from childhood. No grave psychiatric disorder applies.
There is no theoretical or medical reason why some of these states could not occur at the same time in the same person. Thus a psychopath might also be schizophrenic if he had contracted the virus, or may suffer from a brain lesion.
2. The following statement by Mr. Norder is incorrect: “But then considering that when you use the term "psychopath" you are often describing traits that are actually those of psychotics instead, it's not surprising you don't understand what the other terms mean either.” One of the keynotes of psychopathic behavior is irrationality. A psychopath is capable of inexplicable, unaccountable, perverse, self-defeating, self-ruinous or apparently suicidal actions every bit as much as is a psychotic person. Cases of this kind are voluminously documented. Let Mr. Norder explain why many people have attributed psychopathy to Jack the Ripper, while the nature of his crimes clearly indicates a person operating far outside the envelope of what is normally considered sanity. The risks he took were self-ruinous in nature, placing him against enormous odds for evading capture, for no understandable purpose. His actions insofar as purloining uteri and mutilating women are beyond comprehension for what is normally considered sane behavior.
David M. Radka
Author: "Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders"
Casebook Dissertations Section
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Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1074
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
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Gosh, David,
Little hint here: When trying to rationalize away an error, it's better to be direct. Rambling just makes it more obvious that you are hoping people will forget what it was you were talking about.
By the way, did you copy and paste those definitions from somewhere? Those show more knowledge on the topic than you have ever displayed previously on these boards... and the definitions in many places distinctly contradict the earlier erroneous statements on those conditions back in your A?R thread. Nice to see you getting your ducks in a row finally.
Well, mostly anyway... Too bad you had to go and try to argue about irrationality and lack of sanity in psychopaths at the end there. Psychopaths are very sane: they know exactly what they are doing, know that it's wrong, but do it anyway because they don't care about other people. Everytime you start arguing for a Ripper that was highly irrational and insane, you are actually arguing against the idea that he was a psychopath. This is one major reason why your theory is nonsensical.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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David Radka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dradka
Post Number: 109
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 1:03 am: |
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Mr. Norder wrote:
"Everytime you start arguing for a Ripper that was highly irrational and insane, you are actually arguing against the idea that he was a psychopath."
>>I have never made such an argument. All my relevant postings have described JtR as irrational and sane, as psychopaths are. It should be clear to everyone that Mr. Norder is a liar.
David M. Radka
Author: "Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders"
Casebook Dissertations Section
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4293
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 10:35 am: |
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My bet lies on someone like Peter Sutcliffe or Gordon Cummins. Maybe someone like Henry Leee Lucas as well. And yes, I find that Fritz Honka guy interesting too.
Not a highly intelligent psychopath like Ted Bundy. Let's all remember that not all serial killers are psychopaths - some do actually tend to be psychotics, especially those that leaves behind them a disorganised crime scene.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on December 22, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
-----
"It's a BEAUTIFUL day - watch some bastard SPOIL IT."
Sign inside the Griffin Inn in Bath
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Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1075
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
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Now David, get serious here. You just got done saying that the Ripper was way outside of what could be considered sane, and then you turn around just three hours later and claim you have always argued that he was sane. People don't even have to go back to the many examples in the old A?R thread to catch you trying to pretend you didn't say what you clearly said after it was pointed out s a mistake.
As far as you always arguing that he was irrational, that's not something you normally find in psychopaths... Well, OK, everybody acts a little irrational now and then, that's just a part of being human. But the level of extreme irrationality you propose in your theory falls well within the delusions of psychosis and not psychopathy at all.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 276
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 12:52 pm: |
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Interesting that someone mentioned Honka and his hearing of voices , part of Peter Sutcliffe's explanation for his killings was that he heard voices telling him to kill prostitutes when he worked as a grave digger in a Polish cemetery.
And - although unproven - Sutcliffe may have followed Joe Sickert around trying to find out information about the Ripper case.
If Sutcliffe and Honka admired the Ripper , then they could have seen him as a sort of ' street cleaner ' figure , getting rid of women who walked the streets for money : this suggests a different type of murderer to the one who would ' do it for fun ' such as Ted Bundy. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 926
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 2:00 pm: |
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I think it is possible for a psychopath to be motivated by rage. In fact I am coming to believe that rage is what motivated Jack.
When a person is very angry it is possible to confuse their behavior with that of a psychotic person. Enraged people do many things which on the face of it seem psychotic. They rant, scream, throw things, become violent, and are not generally amenable to reason. They could even commit a mutilation murder.
So if you have a person who is a psychopath and also driven by rage, his crime scenes will be easy to confuse with those of a psychotic person. There will be a lot of generalized mayhem and destruction which on the face of it seems crazy and purposeless.
But the angry psychopath does not imagine he is killing space aliens who are attacking his brain. He knows exactly who he is killing and he is killing her because he is furious and he has no empathy.
It would explain the conundrum we have puzzled over for years, namely that his crime scenes seem too disorganized for someone who was rational enough to get away every time.
(Message edited by diana on December 22, 2005) |
Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1077
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
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Hi Diana,
Yes, certainly psychopaths and others can act extremely irrationally while in a fit of emotion. That's why some heat of passion crimes end up with temporary insanity defenses, with the argument that they were so out of it that they couldn't stop themselves and that anyone else in a similar emotional state would have done the same thing.
On the other hand, these fits of rage or other emotion also mean that control is lost. One of the classic questions to try to determine if this temporary insanity was real or just an after the fact excuse is whether the person was so worked up that they would have done the same thing even with a policeman watching. In Jack's case, for example, did he keep at the mutilations while the PC entered Mitre Square, or did he run off? Did he (assuming it was him) continue on with Stride or run off upon Diemschutz's arrival or beat a hasty retreat?
Also, to go along with what Radka was arguing above, it's important to note that, in Radka's definition anyway, psychopaths are incapable of all emotions including rage. Of course on the other hand real psychopaths as described by professionals are actually well known for being more frequently angry and more intensely so than most people. So yet another reason to count that theory out.
But what it comes down to is just how much control the Ripper really had. Some people think he had little or no control and that it was mostly luck that he got away with it. Others see a lot of control and don't think that the crime scenes look all that disorganized at all... I mean, as a thought experiment here, assume you are highly under control killer who happens to have an absolute fascinate with cutting women up and pulling things out... the fact that things do get pulled out doesn't mean you are disorganized, it just means you did what you wanted to do. Organized versus disorganized would be based upon methods -- how quiet were the attacks, were there witnesses, did the victims have a chance to resist, how well were the victims picked, were steps taken to try to prevent capture, etc.
I tend to personally think Jack was quite organized all around.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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David Radka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dradka
Post Number: 111
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 8:02 pm: |
|
Mr. Norder wrote:
"...in Radka's definition anyway, psychopaths are incapable of all emotions including rage."
>>I have no such position.
David M. Radka
Author: "Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders"
Casebook Dissertations Section
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Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1080
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 2:12 pm: |
|
Hi David,
Oh, come now, we went over this quite thoroughly in the old A?R threads. You said it, then when it was pointed out wrong you denied it, then when the direct quotes were given you claimed that their rage wasn't real rage but fake rage because they wanted to pretend to have emotions, and when that was disputed you went back to claiming you had never said anything of the sort despite the clear proof you had...
But I know from past experience that you will continue going around in circles making all sorts of excuses and denials instead of facing up to things, so heaven forbid I waste any more time trying to convince you when everyone who bothers to go read your posts there can see for themselves.
By the way, aren't you violating one of your "Founding Principles" by discussing this all here instead of your new A?R thread? Doesn't that mean you should "boycott" yourself?
Anyway, which known serial killer would the posters here compare Jack to is the topic, how about we go back to that?
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
|
Yes Dan...the Founding Father of Flipflopology did state that psychopaths didn't feel emotion. Its in the defunct thread.
Of course psychopaths have emotions . All people feel emotion. All to different degrees in different circumstances.
Even if a regular guy or gal,or a psychopath, faked an emotion, they would have to have some sort of awareness of emotion/emotions to imitate in a way that made them appear to be sincerely reacting to whatever situation as normal people should, by what they assumed would be normal. You don't need to go to Hartford A&M to know that. Such a silly statement in the first place,David.
Yo,David-Cesar Chavez ! Stop the boycott !! I want my grapes !!! Halto La Huelga,Por Favor !
(Message edited by howard on December 24, 2005) |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1266
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 4:07 pm: |
|
Dan:
I agree with you that Jack was organized.
Thats why I mentioned the Cleveland Torso and Zodiac killers...both appeared to have been pretty organized.
One side note...like the theory of Stephenson being inside a hospital and then coming out to do his deeds,one of the people Ness focused on was supposedly able to enter a mental home on or around the times of murders in Cleveland.....and like one theory of Stephenson where he killed according to predetermined patterns, the Zodiac did commit murders at a 57 degree angle [ the acetate over the map story...]... |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2733
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 4:22 pm: |
|
To me the Ripper has the chill of the psychotic
about him-a coolness,deliberateness,premedidatedness and a glimpse of a certain rectitude......."these creatures don"t
deserve to live...their bodies are contaminated and will contaminate others.They need to be exterminated etc".
The trauma for people unexpectedly finding their mutilated corpses in the streets is of no consequence to him whatsoever except for showing their "sin"[lower area naked and opened up/emptied,their "diseased innards"exposed to the world].
I dont believe a psychopath would have gone to the trouble of all this particular "embroidery / fancy work"with ripped out organs decorating the corpses etc -----unless
he was carrying out some message regarding a"political" punishment killing -very,very unlikely I admit but a "possibility" given the political climate and desperate goings on by both the Fenians and the British Govt in the tear 1888.
It may have been seen to have been creating a
convenient "diversion"from other subversive activities...........there are some similar examples in History.
Natalie |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 931
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 12:19 am: |
|
I guess Jack was a balance of several things as we all are. Psychopathic enough to not care about killing, angry enough to tear his victims to shreds, and organized enough to get away. |
David Radka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dradka
Post Number: 114
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 2:23 pm: |
|
Mr. Norder: "Oh, come now, we went over this quite thoroughly in the old A?R threads. You said it, then when it was pointed out wrong you denied it, then when the direct quotes were given you claimed that their rage wasn't real rage but fake rage because they wanted to pretend to have emotions, and when that was disputed you went back to claiming you had never said anything of the sort despite the clear proof you had..."
>>Mr. Norder is an arrant liar. He grossly misrepresents the nature of previous exchanges in the above.
Mr. Brown: "Yes Dan...the Founding Father of Flipflopology did state that psychopaths didn't feel emotion. Its in the defunct thread."
>>Both Mr. Brown and Mr. Norder are unable to understand what psychiatrists are talking about concerning psychopathy, and also unable to understand what I am talking about concerning the psychiatrists. Their opinions are shallow and erroneous with respect to the subject matter, and are not even third rate in quality. I urge interested readers to study the works of good psychiatrists such as Hare, Lykken and Cleckley for themselves, and read my work on the case with it in mind.
David M. Radka
Author: "Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders"
Casebook Dissertations Section
|
Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1082
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 3:05 pm: |
|
Hi David,
So your response is yet again the same old nonsense that I am a liar and that you didn't say what everyone saw you say, also that somehow your training in accounting makes you some expert in abnormal psychology and that I don't understand it at all despite extensive educational background in that specific field? Looks my prediction of you "going around in circles making all sorts of excuses and denials" was right on the money...
But you ignored the more important part: Aren't you violating your own "Founding Principles" from your latest A?R thread by posting here instead of there? Yet another example of you expecting other people to follow rules you don't bother to yourself, isn't it?
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
|
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 4:43 pm: |
|
Dave:
It doesn't take a PhD to be cognizant of the fact that you DID say the opposite of what you are saying now....back then at least. Thats okay. You're human. You can err...
It doesn't matter much to me Dave...I'm just ribbing you. But you did flip flop.
And not a third rate flip flop...but a first rate one.
All people,once again,have some sort of emotional capacity...maybe not a catatonic or a guy with a lobotomy...
What we get emotional about is also important. Like me...I ain't getting emotional over this repartee..you are. It appears to matter a great deal to you that your previous claim is contradictory to what The Third Rate Twins have pointed out to you.
Don't sweat it. Its okay. Enjoy the glogg... |
David Radka
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dradka
Post Number: 116
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 6:41 pm: |
|
Mr. Norder: "Aren't you violating your own "Founding Principles" from your latest A?R thread by posting here instead of there?"
>>If you have a matter related to the A?R theory, please post it to the "A?R M&R" thread. But please be aware that if it contains personal content, I won't respond to it.
Mr. Brown: "...you DID say the opposite of what you are saying now....back then at least."
>>Mr. Brown is a wannabe intellect who resorts to backstabbing when he starts to feel bad about himself. He has no idea what he's talking about in the above.
Once again, I urge any interested readers to read psychiatric books and related threads for themselves, and not to rely even in the slightest on Mr. Norder or Mr. Brown for any information about anything.
David M. Radka
Author: "Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders"
Casebook Dissertations Section
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2738
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 7:23 pm: |
|
Hi Folks,
I think it doubtful that a psychotic individual suffering from schizophrenic paranoia would ever get "emotional".Its a contradiction in term.
Such people are ice cool with regard to emotion.
Likewise a psychopathic individual.The thing that most distinguishes a psychopathic individual from say a neurotic one is a complete absence of normal emotional reaction to events that would cause grief,distress,joy,sadness etc in most people together with a complete lack of conscience. |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1275
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 7:26 pm: |
|
Dave:
No,buddy...I'm not a wannabe. I don't wannabe an intellect, if it means being dishonest. You did say psychopaths weren't capable of real emotional expression. Lighten up.
I'm not stabbing you in the back. I'm simply telling you the truth to your face. So was Dan.
On your thread, I asked you a question properly and you replied in kind.
Out here in the real world of stink and sweat and bad breath,you're just a regular dude.
Dear Nats:
Recently some "intellects" made the assessment that people like Henry Ford were probably psychopathic. There are other examples...maybe someone else can supply the names.
Now, Ford might have been a real schtup when it came to unions...but like Hitler, whom Dave Radka said was a NORMAL MAN in capital letters, Ford shared a version of anti-Jewishness [ Ford's Dearborn Independent pointed out the preponderence of people who happened to be Jewish in the areas of crime,Communism,and leftist anarchist circles..like Churchill did..] and yet had real concerns for people that they felt worthy of concern.
These are emotions,albeit perhaps affordable ethic based...but nonetheless emotions or sympathies.
(Message edited by howard on December 25, 2005) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2740
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 8:01 pm: |
|
Once again Howard,you may well be correct regarding the two people you name.But I doubt Winston was such a person-he was sometimes completely ruthless its true and some may have referred to him as a psychopath but he acted according to the needs of his class with an unerring instinct early on[the same instinct that allowed the British to conquer most of the globe for several hundred years].During World War Two he again acted with complete pragmatism and the ruthlessness required to defeat the evil that was Hitler as well as dedication to his own higher ideals of patriotism
and determination to protect the UK from invasion whatever it took.This alone should tell us he was no psychopath[IMHO] but a supremely astute war lord.
Henry Ford?I dont know that much about him but again few psychopaths leave a trail of success as he did.most often its a trail of total chaos!
Nats
x |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1277
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 9:06 am: |
|
Dear Nats:
I wish I had that list of people [ Walt Disney was on it...] to share with you,but as per usual..I can't locate the sumbitch.
I doubt it myself very much that Churchill could even be considered a "psychopath". Ford had control issues [ he felt that "outsiders' were trying to break up his "good thing" with the union organizing....so he hired people to beat strikers and boycotters [ hear that Dave ? Watch out for that Henry Ford ! ] up and if the workers got killed,that was just tough. The amount of money Ford invested into the Dearborn Independent went above and beyond the typical anti-Catholic/Jewish/Eastern European immigrant sentiment that native Americans had at the time.
I think a lot of successful people [ for good,bad or for business] are similar to psychopaths,according to the list compiled by Hare....but don't tell my boss,please ! Just like genius and insanity seem to overlap at times in people. |
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