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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 552
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 2:51 pm: | 
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And here's a map showing the murder sites.
http://www.geocities.com/armchairpi/pics/wholmap.jpg
Its interesting that they were all confined to a small area of Wichita and the Park City residence is somewhat north and removed from that area. I have yet to find out when they moved in there and where they were living when the Otero's were killed. What made that little area a comfort zone if Rader didn't live there?
Jack also killed in a small area. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to assume he lived in the middle of it.
P.S. When you pull up the map it will be way too little to see anything. Pass the mouse arrow over it till a little box appears in the lower right corner. Click the box and the map enlarges.
(Message edited by diana on March 13, 2005) |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1552
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 7:37 am: |
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Hi Diana,
Jack also killed in a small area. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to assume he lived in the middle of it.
Indeed. And if Jack's victims were chosen because their 'type' could be found in abundance in this small area, it certainly doesn't follow that he lived in the middle of it with them.
Love,
Caz
X |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1681
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 9:32 am: |
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Neatly observed Diana.Thanks for that. It opens other doors.
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 556
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:26 pm: |
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On the other hand, I don't think BTK lived in Park City at the beginning (Otero). If he lived in the middle of his (approximately) 6 mile wide killing area at the beginning then its back to the drawing boards!
Last nite I read about Rader's heavy handed harassment of some of the residents of Park City. Several individuals were even forced to move away. One lady told how everything was fine till she got a boyfriend, then Rader cited her for every violation he could find, and even had the gaul to come right out and tell her that if she got rid of her boyfriend everything would be fine! There were other accounts of walking into houses without permission, letting other people's dogs out, then picking them up in his role as dogcatcher and refusing to see the owner about releasing them until after they were euthanized.
We can perhaps infer from this that JTR was probably also a very overbearing, controlling manipulative person in all his relationships.
(Message edited by diana on March 14, 2005) |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 469
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:43 pm: |
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What made that little area a comfort zone if Rader didn't live there?
Back in the 1950s American bank robber Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed banks and he replied "Because that's where the money is."
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 632
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 2:07 pm: |
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I think Radar worked within the "comfort zone" of the Witchita murders, and lived very close to the two Park City murders. The locations form 2 clusters (using what's called a "spatial cluster analysis", not just eyeballing it). He lived in the Park City cluster, and he worked in the Witchita cluster (provided I've got all the addresses correct). Also, the library where he left the note, and WSU are all, more or less, in the larger cluster (Witchita).
I've read some papers that have looked for patterns in distances travelled from "home"/"work" by serial killers. In these articles there were some simple relationships (equations), that I put together as a simple geographical profiling exercise. Basically, based upon the distances between every two murder locations, you can then calculate the "minimum" and "maximum" distance the serial killer is (on average) likely to have travelled from home.
So, I calculated these values, and drew circles around each crime scene; one with a radius of the minimum distance, and one with a radius of the maximum distance. Then, I looked at the map at all the places where minimum and maximum circles intersect. With Rader, once you include the Park City murders, the most intersetions of minimums with maximums is in Park City. Other areas were also "suggested", so it's not like this picked the only right place. Also, I've tried the same thing with some other "maps", and Rader is the first case where it seems to have been "right".
Anyway, I'm just very pleased to see it work, even if it is only by chance. ha!
- Jeff |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1554
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 6:20 am: |
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Hi Jeff, All,
In David Canter's Mapping Murder, the following caught my eye, which may be of interest when discussing actual cases like BTK:
As Bolitho wrote in 1926 about murderers, 'They very commonly construct for themselves a life-romance, a personal myth in which they are the maltreated hero, which secret is the key of their battle against despair.' In other words the victim takes on a significance in the offender's self-constructed life story that is reflected in the way the body of the victim is violated.
Love,
Caz
X |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 633
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 2:48 pm: |
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Hi Caz,
I've not read Mapping Murder, though I keep meaning to find a copy. The passage you quoted is a nice description of what is often presented in much more vauge terms like "fantasy life", etc. Most of the time, one gets the impression that these "fantasy lives" are just violent images, or sex, but no story; just some awful sound track in the back ground.
However, I think these fellows have elaborate "stories". They don't just think of violence, they think of themselves committing the violence. So, if they have themselves as the main character, there would have to be a story to make the fantasy move along, so to speak. And, they need to figure out how they can validate, or justify, themselves doing these things; that somehow their actions are the "right thing to do", etc. Bolitho's quote so nicely captures that idea when he describes the fantasy as including themselves as the maltreaded hero.
Thanks for that.
- Jeff |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 557
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
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One thing's for sure. The cops got their man. BTK always was a publicity addict. Imagine if Dennis was innocent and getting all that attention. The real BTK would be out there masticating his mandible mightily. There would be a flurry of angry letters, packages with trophies spilling out of them, and, I fear, possibly another body. Instead all we have is ominous silence. And the silence shouts. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1854
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
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Dear god Caz
I really do hope that this is not the chap you are quoting:
'The mere idea of marriage, as a strong possibility, if not always nowadays a reasonable likelihood, existing to weaken the will by distracting its straight aim in the life of practically every young girl, is the simple secret of their confessed inferiority in men's pursuits and professions to-day.
Bolitho, William
On Marriage'
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Canter should be given a horse and galloped to hell.
You really should know better. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1555
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:57 am: |
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Dear heaven AP, old fruit,
A quote is just a quote unless the quoter chooses to give an opinion on it. And you're not getting me going on the subject of the fairer (and weaker in my case) sex; we're talking about crimes here that are almost exclusively male on female, or male on male. 
Your opinion is obviously that nothing Bolitho or Canter writes is valid, because you don't like other stuff they've written. And you're welcome to that opinion. However, it appears to me that if Bolitho did find it was very common for offenders to construct a life story for themselves, you're in a bit of a cleft stick:
1) Offender has constructed a life story about himself as a person - a personal myth (but he knows deep down there can be no justification for his actions).
2) Offender has only pretended this is the case (to pull the wool over the eyes of theorists like Bolitho), which would only serve to make him all the more devious and accountable. He is still the kind of person whose sense of self has given him the thumbs-up to hurt other human beings.
Which would you like?
Actually, I assume the Maybrick diary author would empathise (or would have empathised) with Bolitho's words on the subject of the 'maltreated hero', the constructed life-romance and the battle against despair - except that he evidently got a bit too carried away with the basic idea - oooh, I'd say by about 300%.
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on March 16, 2005) |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1855
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 1:24 pm: |
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Caz
As ever you are right about the quote. I just like to take a little dig at you whenever that opportunity arises, and that happens seldom, so I couldn’t resist me good self on this rare occasion.
My opinion of Bolitho is pure bolitho.
My opinion of Canter is that someone should give him a horse and make it gallop for a change. I mean just look at what he had to say about Duffy, the Railway Rapist as he was called when Canter attempted a trot:
Er… he probably works for the railway and might live near where them awful crimes took place… he will be a man, and may have a house, wife and dog.
Great stuff eh?
Where I take offence with Canter quoting Bolitho is that he maintains that ‘offenders’ - your word, Caz - construct a life story about themselves, a ‘personal myth’… well that is basic human nature, and each and everyone of us do that, it is not exclusive to ‘offenders’.
I know it is popular for profilers to imagine that such slack rules only apply to killers but I’m afraid that is exactly where they are so far off target that it becomes an exaggerated farce.
This is what over-paid and verbose profilers get paid for.
Canter sits astride his Home Office donkey called ’Denial’ and whacks it uselessly with his big stick while the carrot lays uneaten on the shelf gathering mould.
But hey Caz, the salary is good.
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 558
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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Profiling is in its infancy and as such still has a lot of rough edges. I think with time it will improve. If profiling is a crock, what are we doing with the "Shades of Whitechapel" message board? Why are we trying to understand BTK if not to get some insight into JTR? Why do we have threads on a number of other serial killers? |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 635
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 3:34 pm: |
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Hi AP,
The idea is not that creating a "personal myth" is unique to serial offenders, rather that their "personal myth" seems to involve a lot of violence and justification for them to do it. Their "myths" are thought to be different in content, rather than be different by the mere fact they have such myths. Also, I think they are supposed to spend much more of their time living in this fantasy world; fitting each day and each interaction into the context of their "myth." Eventually, they believe their own PR, and start to act out what they originally only thought about.
That's the theory anyway. Now, whether or not the theory is at all accurate, well, that's another story!
- Jeff |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1858
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Well, everyone is right to a degree, but where I get really hacked off with folk like Canter and the like is that these profilers are the one and same maniacs who sit on Home Office committees and boards castigating killers because they are in ‘denial’ and show no ‘remorse’, and then the killer suddenly admits to denial and remorse, is automatically released from prison after serving only nine years for claw-hammering a young girl to death and then goes on to kill someone else, and eat them.
Bolitho! |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 636
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Hi AP,
Yes, this is always what amazes me too. I mean really, these fellows, for whatever reason, are often described as expert manipulators; this is why they are supposed to get away with it for so long. Then, after however long of living a life with no signs of "remorse", they get locked away. Suddenly, they "feel bad"? C'mon, if they fell bad at all, it's usually for themselves. They feel bad that "my life is ruined", not "I killed x number of people; how horrible for them and their families, etc". But, knowing that parole depends upon them showing remorse, be not surprised if someone who is used to, and good at, manipulating people starts showing all sorts of remorse in a very convincing manner.
Ed Kemper is a prime example. During his killings he was interviewed by a pannel of psychiatrists and pronounced "not a danger to society or himself." To top it off, there is the unconfirmed story that during this interview he had the head of one of his victims in the trunk of his car. Whether or not that is true, he had killed a 15 year old girl shortly before the interview (the night before comes to mind, but if not that close, within a few days anyway).
Rather than releasing these fellows back into the public, just make life mean life. Maybe some would be safe to the public, but so what? They've already taken a number of lives, they've already earned the punishment, even if they wouldn't do it again. Why take the chance?
- Jeff |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 559
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 7:34 pm: |
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If SKs are not executed, they should never ever be let out. This really happened AP? |
Poorhoney
Police Constable
Username: Poorhoney
Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 8:01 pm: |
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If memory serves, Kemper was originally incarcerated for a murder he committed as a juvenile. His grandmother, perhaps? Is that when/why he spoke to the panel, Jeff?
Poorhoney
Punxsutawney Phil is a groundhog!
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Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 637
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 9:47 pm: |
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Hi Poorhoney,
Kemper was originally incarcerated for killing both his grandparents. His explanation for killing his grandfather was that he didn't want his grandfather to find his wife had been killed by his grandson. This "save someone from the shame" style of excuse has been given by others as well, and even if it's a reflection of what happened, indicates how a normally good way to think (protect someone you care about from being shamed, hurt, or embarassed) gets twisted and warped to produce a horrible end result.
Anyway, once Kemper was released from care, he was not supposed to live with his mother. They had a poor relationship and it was recommended that he not stay with her as it may aggrevate his violent tendencies. However, he apparently was not monitored closesly, and these recommendations did not seem to raise any concerns, as he eventually moved back home with his mother. As an aside, this is one of the few cases I'm aware of where there does seem to be a very direct relationship between Kemper's violence and his mother. In most situations, the suggestion is put forth but the actually connection seems vauge at best.
Anyway, it was after his release from mental care that he started killing young female students from the University he lived near (and where his mother worked). During this series of murders, he was interviewed and "assessed"; as part of the follow up from his previous killings of his grandparents. He was declared "safe" and "cured", and no longer required any further contact or follow up.
Kemper, apparently, is very bright. During his incarceration as a juvinial he help to administer and score many of the psychological tests to other patients (according to the Crime Library story anyway). This, of course, means he knew what the "right" answers were, so he could easily answer in a way that indicates he was "normal." I have no idea what the people in the original instituation must have been thinking. How could they possibly believe they could ever assess Kemper's treatment if they were basically going to teach him how to answer the tests? It's beyond belief, really.
- Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4249
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 4:11 am: |
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Call me a cynic, but I have a feeling that fewer killers would be released if it were a stipulation that they should live next door to a psychiatrist, a judge, a politician, a bishop or some other do-gooder.
When they talk about releasing them into the community they always mean someone else's community, never their own.
Robert |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 561
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 8:57 am: |
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These yo-yos should be executed. If they are not they will go on killing whether they are locked up or not. Ever hear of prison violence? I think there should be a way of sanctioning officials who knew or should have known that someone was dangerous and yet let them out. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1559
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 4:37 am: |
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Hi AP,
Yes, I'm well aware of your views on Canter's work regarding the Railway Rapist. But don't blame Canter for spending part of his time making what you regard as money for old rope - blame whoever pays him, and then tell them why they shouldn't. Be public-spirited about it, or else go out and make some of this easy money for yourself. You can never have enough Safeways Spanish Brandy. 
Actually, Canter makes it very clear in his book that it is, as you say, 'basic human nature' to construct - or invent - ourselves as the person we wish to be, and therefore not something that is exclusive to ‘offenders’. So you are wrong to lump Canter in with your band of profilers who - as you claim - imagine ‘such slack rules only apply to killers’.
I agree with Jeff's point that the self-constructed lives of violent serial offenders are going to contain elements that set them apart from those of non-offenders. They give their fantasies much more houseroom, allowing themselves to be taken over by their darker desires. They may fear for the consequences of acting them out, but fear generally loses out to obsession, often to the point where their lives are more self-destruct than self-construct.
Don’t you think that’s a reasonably fair assessment? Or do you just think it’s useless information that can’t be used to identify potential offenders?
Have a great weekend all.
Love,
Caz
X
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1869
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 2:14 pm: |
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Yes Caz, we do agree on something.
I too believe that Jeff steers a remarkably clear and steady course on this difficult subject of serial killers and profilers, and I have implicit faith in his reasoning and advanced thinking on the subject.
I think you and me swim against the tide.
And we’ll probably drown.
No bad thing.
I might even throw you a life ring. |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 640
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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Hi AP,
Thank you, but I wouldn't recommend placing any faith in my reasoning. 
- Jeff |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2475
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 7:35 am: |
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there appears to be a programme about this in the UK on channel five at 11pm tonight
Jenni
"Stay away from that trap door,
Cos' there's somethin' down there"
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Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 440
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 1:57 pm: |
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This just in; pleading guilty.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=2&u=/nm/20050627/pl_nm/crime_btk_dc
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 746
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 7:38 pm: |
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They just had too much on him for him to do anything but plead guilty. It's nice that he decided to talk about what he did and admit to it legally instead of going through a long, complicated and expensive trial for which he had no chance of accomplishing anything helpful...
...plus that means there won't be some obnoxiously long trial being televised nonstop. I bet CourtTV is upset.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 640
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 9:58 pm: |
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...and he has noted that he committed these acts for a sexual reason. The scumbag effectively shut down any arguments in that respect. Good.
...Hoping he rots in jail.
Since they can't fry him....
(Message edited by howard on June 27, 2005)
HowBrown
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 670
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 7:25 pm: |
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Ok what does he teach us about JTR? The thing that got to me was his demeanor. I mean, here he is talking about doing awful things to people (we shut off the sound and just watched the body language after awhile -- I didn't want to hear it) and he looked like he was talking about watering the lawn.
What does this tell us about why JTR got away with it? When he left the crime scene did he look agitated? bored? satiated (ugh)? Apparently the expression on his face didn't arouse suspicion in other passersby. Possibly his demeanor didn't set off any alarm bells in those who knew him either. If Jack were in my family, and he came home late one night, but had no blood on him and seemed as usual, maybe slightly bored, not even agitated, I would be inclined to consider suspicion kind of preposterous.
On the other hand if he were schizophrenic or bipolar I would expect extreme, wild-eyed agitation.
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 201
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 7:47 pm: |
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Hi Diana,
The main thing it tells us about JTR is that the FBI is wrong when it says that serial killers don't just stop killing by choice. I think a lot of cases remain unsolved for that reason.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1896
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 5:03 am: |
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Hi All,
I often wonder if Harold Shipman, like BTK, wanted the world to know what he'd done. Shipman made a stupid mistake, bumping off one elderly female patient, and forging her will on his easily discovered typewriter, leaving everything to himself.
Maybe some serial killers become so obsessed with their own importance and the effect they have on people's lives that they can't bear the thought that no one will ever know about it.
Shipman was different in that no one knew (although some were starting to guess) that anyone had died from foul play, until he typed up that bogus will.
It's like they all have a death wish eventually, one way or another.
Love,
Caz
X |
Ally
Chief Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 957
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 7:20 am: |
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Hi Howard,
I disagree with you. We knew he was going to claim he did it for a sexual reason, he had indentified himself as a sexual serial killer in his notes, so it is hardly likely that he was going to say anything else.
I still think he has been reading Ressler, Douglas, et. al for the last 20 years and has memorized the answers for the test. Even in his testimony when asked questions, he would respond,
"well if you have read anything about serial killers, you would know that they..." and then go on to explain his actions.
In only one of the ten cases does he say he masturbated and that was kind of an afterthought. In one case when the judge asked "what did you do after you hung her" he replies, "I had some sexual fantasies." and in the other case where he says he had "sexual fantasies" it's used as an excuse to the victims..he also uses that he is a wanted man and needs shelter once.
I don't think the dude has any insight at all into himself. He's read Ressler's Right Responses for Serial Killers and is regurgitating verbatim what the standard is. He's practically programmed at this point.
I still think while it may be true that he "got off" on killing, that sex wasn't his motivator but I doubt we will ever know for sure. He will never give anything other than his textbook responses.
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Lina
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 11:49 am: |
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What if BTK Never Knew the Church?
Check out this fascinating op-ed in The Wichita Eagle.
Link: http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/editorial/12007660.htm
Full text below:
The quiet animosity of cynics who decry religious influence in America erupted into a growl with the arrest of Dennis Rader, president of Park City's Christ Lutheran Church. After incessant revelations of priests who abuse young parishioners, let alone teachers and Scout leaders, news of BTK's identity shook the earth under those who recall a man they trusted.
Experience with serial killers, psychopaths and offenders, however, inspires in this forensic psychiatrist the question of how much worse this tragedy would have been if not for Rader's faith and his other moorings.
History reflects most serial killers to be disenfranchised, typically marginal folks with few trappings of identity. The occasional politically active John Wayne Gacy or married Gary Ridgway is more the exception to Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Coral Eugene Watts and Henry Lee Lucas.
Or are they? The holy grail question bedeviling forensic psychiatrists such as myself is: Why do serial killers stop? Why, when a hunger to destroy and torture is so compulsive, does a serial killer restrain himself sometimes when at other times, he does not?
Dennis Rader stopped killing, possibly for many years. Only his need for acknowledgment ultimately smoked him out -- not his reoffending. But were BTK never identified, he would have joined the ranks of scores of other unnamed serial killers, content to anonymously relive in self-gratifying fantasy the ingenuity of their sadism. Some of them stopped, never to resume. Never to be apprehended. What happened to them?
Taming the beast
Rader's case poses the realistic possibility that some of them may have gone to church. The meticulous temperament that becomes serial killers lends itself to ritual adherence.
Psychiatric experience teaches us that compulsive, rigid personalities may employ defenses of overinvolvement in opposite pursuits -- known as "undoing." And even when a callous disposition enables a human to so grotesquely violate another, if even a smidgen of conscience rears its uninvited head, there may be no better place to tame the beast of moral self-scrutiny than church.
In the seven years in which I have spearheaded the Depravity Scale (www.depravityscale.org), a research effort to standardize how courts engage the most heinous crimes, I have appreciated the importance of recognizing how anyone is capable of depraved acts. For this reason, our research focuses not on who is depraved but on whether a crime is depraved, and what forensic evidence makes it depraved. Evil crimes -- even under the unflinching focus of forensic pathology, anthropology and psychiatry inquiry -- are simply the most extreme forms of what religion terms "sin."
Faith helps many turn away from sinning, and aims to redeem sinners large and small. We know from the example of inveterate hit men that they may find solace in churchgoing and even the confessional. Religion promotes the tenets of charitable giving that saw Rader use his knot-tying skills to guide young people to create, not destroy. Those who create thus divert -- in action and spirit -- from destruction.
Need a higher authority
Religion can reach morally empty psychopaths where psychiatry and incarceration cannot. To someone who believes himself to be clever enough to fool all of the people all of the time -- including his psychiatrist -- a higher authority may be the only entity to whom he is capable of feeling accountable. Sure, there are those who fake it; some "find Jesus" in order to pander to the well-meaning nuns who advocate for them. But still others do take those journeys of self-evolution.
Many a man prays over his unwanted urges. We will never know the substance of Rader's prayers. But we have to imagine that a man who kept his mementos was regularly reminded of the destruction of his lust in a community in which he circulated freely.
My experience interviewing some of America's scariest killers has taught me that the trappings of the mainstream -- loving family, meaningful career, outside activities and, yes, spirituality -- may be key ingredients keeping a human from behavior that would shame an animal.
In Rader's case, if his prayer redirected him into the Scouts, responsible parenting, chasing stray dogs or being a super-Christian at his church, many lives likely have been spared.
www.depravityscale.org
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Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 448
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 3:24 pm: |
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"Experience with serial killers, psychopaths and offenders, however, inspires in this forensic psychiatrist the question of how much worse this tragedy would have been if not for Rader's faith and his other moorings. "
How -- tell me this article doesn't make one think of D'Onston....
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2130
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 3:50 pm: |
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Lina,
I do not agree with your contention about the role of the church in this matter.
Going to confession can be interpreted by some wrong doers as absolution-indeed an act of forgiveness by a priest can be interpreted internally as the end of the matter, freeing that individual to "re-engage" in their wrong doing.
The result of going to church and "being forgiven" by a Higher Power ,could then ,in this specific case, have been interpreted by him as a licence to kill more innocent people especially
in those earlier cases. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2262
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
|
Quite right Natalie
Confession becomes confirmation then. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 671
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
|
Sometimes a new start is needed if one is to have the courage to try to change. If a person is forever soiled then change is moot, it brings no relief to the screaming conscience. If I am permanently dirty then what incentive do I have to try to do better?
However, I think we make a false assumption when we say Rader quit. After he was arrested he confessed to several killings that no one had ever attributed to him before. Without his confession those killings never would have been laid at his door. However he was careful not to confess to anything that happened after the death penalty was put in place. I don't want to be dogmatic about this, but I think it is perfectly possible that he killed several other people we don't know about and probably never will because of his fear of the needle. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 204
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 6:36 pm: |
|
Hi Diana,
I don't see why anyone over 50 years of age would fear the death penalty. You get you're own private cell and you'll likely die of old age before the sentence is carried out. Even if it does happen when you're 85, who cares.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 652
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 7:04 pm: |
|
Sir Bob Robert:
Yes it does my man ! Especially this part...
"Psychiatric experience teaches us that compulsive, rigid personalities may employ defenses of overinvolvement in opposite pursuits -- known as "undoing."
Now to keep on looking into RDS for further evidence....
Ally..
You could be right,toots....Maybe he read some books on profiling and went the way of all textbooks. Good points you make.
I was really more disgusted with this guy's casual description of how he killed these people and since he did say he did it all for the nookie, I figured, Hey ! Good... End of Story. Right to jail...see ya..... It was more of a desire that the State of Kansas just putting an end to his 15 minutes of fame...before he becomes a household name...
HowBrown
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c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 4:58 pm: |
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When considering "comfort zones" in which to kill, it is important to remember that BTK had a car. Jack did not. |
the magus
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
|
there are many parallels between JTR and BTK and Radar may represent an amazing resource to review the JTR case...the most interesting feature, which I have been unable to find a discussion of is Radar's role as a law enforcement agent (and the speculation that JTR was law enforcement associated).
This was a major element of Radar's operation: it was as a compliance officer that he learned the details of people's home security and had a major cover to scope out victims. I have not read about the timeline of the role and whether some change in this position resulted in his stopping his rampage....this could also be the explanation for JTR...if his situation changed after Warren resigned, he could have lost his comfort zone...anyone have anything on this?
I agree with P Cornwall in one thing, the palpable outrage that JTR was not caught...but she should be investing in having and "insider" view like Radar's exploited for the purpose of IDing JTR...Sickert is a weight of the evidence suspect...but it just doesn't ring true...although he may have been a letter writer. |
D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
|
The discussion on this thread is of a low order. It is mostly the typical gossip and hyperbole offered to the lay public concerning the Ripper. When will you folks get it right? The reason why Rader did what he did is because he is a psychopath. Just like JtR, Bundy, Gacy, etc. Why don't you folks read up on psychopaths, and learn something for yourselves about this set of motivations?
Or see my Dissertaion on this web site.
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 672
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 5:57 am: |
|
BTK is forcing me to revise my picture of Jack. I had followed Douglas and pretty much pictured a Kosminski-like individual, so disorganized he couldn't even hold a job, socially disconnected and with his consciousness somewhere out in lala land.
This was in spite of the fact that JTR seemed always to kill on holidays and weekends which tends to point to employment.
In BTK we have an employed, educated, married boyscout leader and ex president of the church congregation -- not socially disconnected, but certainly deceiving a lot of people who were very close to him about his true nature.
I think I may have to toss the "loner" paradigm and the concept of extreme disorganization. JTR's "schedule" certainly points to employment and who knows how competent he was and how many social connections he had formed. Certainly if he had gone around drooling and rolling his eyes they wouldn't have gone with him.
I have found out that Rader had moved to the suburb of Park City before the killings started. He didn't live in his killing zone. Maybe it was where he grew up? or worked?
JTR certainly must have had some connection to Whitechapel. He seemed familiar with it enough to be able to get away. But that doesn't mean he lived there.
As disgusting as Rader's descriptions were, they narrowed my thinking some. He said that he trolled first, then focussed on a likely individual and zeroed in on how to get them. I had never distinguished the two divisions of trolling before. I suppose Jack did the same.
(Message edited by diana on July 06, 2005) |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 674
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
|
The latest BTK news says he never stopped looking for new victims.
There are murders which we know he did because they were attributed to him from the start.
There are murders which we have just found out he did because he confessed.
Isn't it interesting that none of them happened after '94 when the death penalty was reinstated?
I guess in spite of the fact that he never stopped looking, he just didn't find anyone he could kill after 1994.
He's gone 11 years, pining and searching for a victim in vain. Isn't it odd that his luck suddenly turned like that. Why before the death penalty was reinstated he found all kinds of victims.
After 94 he didn't find a single one. NOT!
I think there are more murders he committed after '94. I think he'll never confess to them because if he does he'll be executed.
I think the police know this and he knows they know it. But they can't do a thing without proof. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 214
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 9:28 pm: |
|
Hi all,
If he committed murders after 1994, why didn't he mention them in his mailings, which was his practice? He hadn't been caught and had no reason to think he would be so he shouldn't fear the death penalty. With his ego, I don't believe he could have resisted boasting of other crimes if there'd been any.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 675
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 11:09 pm: |
|
He had 2 or three of his later ones that had never been laid at his door because his letters never mentioned them. We only found out after he was caught. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 716
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
|
I would like to extend my sympathy to three other innocent victims of BTK.
Imagine being married to someone for about thirty years, raising a family, and then finding out that they are a monster.
My heart goes out to Paula Rader. The humiliation and shame must be horrible. The knowledge that most of her life was wasted on a monster. The wrongful death lawsuits which may very well wipe out any security she had built up for her old age. Meanwhile the perpetrator will have a roof over his head, food in his stomach and medical care courtesy of the state of Kansas. She doesn't deserve this.
I grieve also for the children. How will they ever hold their heads up again? This will dog them for the rest of their lives. They don't deserve this either. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3837
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 8:19 pm: |
|
I agree, Diana.
It is truly terrible. Talk about having lived in a lie.
I guess they have to move and change ID. It can't help the children, though, and how their perception of their father might disturb them for the rest of their lives. This family must feel like they've been stuck in a nightmare and just want to wake up.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 740
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
|
Hi, here I am back again. Computer crashed and it took days to get it up and running.
Saw BTK interview on TV last nite. He did not originally know the area of Wichita where he started (Otero). He says he trolled through there till he familiarized himself. Might Jack have done the same? |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 258
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
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Hi Diana,
Yes, I witnessed that spectacle as well. Maybe we can learn something about the Ripper from BTK but I feel a little guilty participating in his farewell tour.
Best wishes,
Stan |
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