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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 742
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 7:05 pm: | 
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I felt funny too. He talked about awful things in the same tone of voice you would use to talk about watering the lawn. We've discussed psychopaths and what they're like a lot. But this is the first time I ever saw one talking about his crimes. I saw all the characteristics I had read about and that was interesting but he gave me the creeps.
I feel so sorry for his wife and kids. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1617
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 1:33 pm: |
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Hi Diana et al.:
Diana you wrote: "He [Dennis Rader aka the BTK killer] talked about awful things in the same tone of voice you would use to talk about watering the lawn."
I think one of the frightening things about BTK is the practical way he ran his life, sectioning off his "secret life" from his other pursuits as an enforcer of local laws, church leader, and boy scout leader. There are overlaps in that he appears to have been punctilious and detail oriented in everything he did.
Rader was a Wichita local official with officious ways, who loved to bully neighbors about perceived infractions on their property. So he manifested control over them in a similar manner to the way he liked to control his murder victims.
I have a poet acquaintance, Carol Sircoulomb, who lives in Wichita and from what I gather may have been one of his victims (the link shows a view of her house) if what she said in a recent poem is true. I gather that Rader might have destroyed a sculpture of hers and killed her cats -- not the only case where he destroyed pets belonging to members of the community. The whole area feels raped by this guy who liked to control people's lives even if he did not actually physically kill them. A sleazy process. -- And he hopes one day God will forgive him.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 989
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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Chris and Diana,
Yes indeed, yesterday the manipulative nature of serial killers was on display big-time. I caught profiler Pat Brown on CNN last night. When she recommends that we just discount anything that comes out of Rader's mouth, I completely agree with her.
Dave |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 818
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
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Dave O'...Just a brief note..I wouldn't totally disregard what came out of Rader's mouth. This guy may be the forerunner of the next batch of serial killers. Could we expect to see more like this type [ control freak,adjusted citizen,etc..] and less of the drifter-misfit-fringe type? Rader was a stay at home s.k.... Consider the changes in American society since September of 2001..there has been a sobering in and of society that seems to have extended to all areas of our lives...A sort of 'domesticated' type..Yes,I know that he didn't shrink from society as Gacy didn't either...but this Rader stopped,whereas Gacy didn't...Thats the scary thought: Control freak s.k.'s who can stop.
Do you see what I'm driving at,buddy?
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 991
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
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I sure do, Howard. You should check Pat Brown out sometime--she's a profiler who questions some of the generally accepted conventions profilers have. The thing about profiling is that their data is limited, yet so many people take their conclusions as gospel. You can say that based on the cases we know about, it's rare that s.k.'s stop. Somehow that turned into some sort of rule--all serial killers can't stop--as if serial killers play by some sort of rulebook.
So I wouldn't say Rader's a forerunner or represents some new type of serial killer. He just seems like he does, but really, he only illustrates that we don't know a lot about s.k.'s. Where there's one guy who stopped, then there are others who have, too. They just never surfaced. There will always be exceptions to every rule.
Cheers,
Dave |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 820
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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Ahh..thats what I meant,but only you said it the right way.
I hope I am wrong about the "forerunner" statement. There are a whole hell of a lot of Rader-types in this world.
Thanks for putting the words in order Dave... |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 749
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 9:47 am: |
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Of course you are assuming he stopped. The death penalty was restored in Kansas in '94(?),'95 (?). His last admitted killing was in '91. He has a powerful incentive for not mentioning anything he did after that time.
However, I think Rader teaches us three things:
1. You can create your own comfort zone by choosing an area and cruising till you are familiar with it. You don't have to live there or work there.
2. The characterization of SK's as loners with no social connections is inaccurate.
3. If DR indeed did quit after a time then it is possible to quit. One should note his explanation for why he quit. He said age was creeping up on him and he no longer had the strength. As disgusting as it is to talk about this, please recall that even as a young man he found it difficult physically to strangle people. He did exercises to increase muscle strength in his hands. As old age gradually arrived (DR is 60 as we speak) his physical strength would have diminished. It is probable that the inclination was still there but the ability to carry it out was lessened. In that sense all uncaught SK's are, in the end, forced to quit. |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 992
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
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Hi Diana,
I think any evidence of post-1994 activity would have turned up in Rader's "Mother Lode" of memorabilia. You can bet the Sedgewick Co. D.A. would have seized on any possibilities there. She's not happy with the 175 years and on sentencing day while being interviewed by MSNBC, the D.A. suggested that Rader might be murdered in prison, like Dahmer.
If Rader lives, profiler Pat Brown suspects that one day he'll claim more murders, not because he did them, but rather to receive attention from police and some time outside the prison system, on "field trips" to visit crime scenes.
I don't think I agree with your old age theory, Diana. 60's not old. In 1994 he was 49. The explanation about his hands seems dubious to me. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 268
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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Hello all,
Well, I guess the BTK appreciation tour is finally over, that is, until the civil cases begin.
His correspondence with authorities and mentions of victims being at his service in the afterlife made it seem he was copycating Zodiac who may have gone uncaught because he quit.
Profilers need thousands of more cases before they can even hope to be doing much more than taking educated guesses. They seem now to be wrong more often than right.
Goodies,
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 269
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 11:05 am: |
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P.S.
I agree that 60 is not too old. I'm 59 and I can do more chinups now than I could do when I was in high school. It depends on how you take care of yourself.
Stan |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 733
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
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Hi Diana,
The characterization of SK's as loners with no social connections is inaccurate.
If you mean by this that it's not necessarily true, then I agree; if you mean it's plain incorrect, then I don't.
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 750
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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I just turned sixty. I don't think I have the physical strength I had at 25. I'm glad you think I'm not old.
Actually, I went back to college about 18 mo's ago. It's really fun the second time around. I'm going to get (Lord willing) another degree. I felt funny at first sitting in class with all those 18 year olds but as I went on I found more people my age. I also have a 4.0 which I certainly never came near getting as a young person.
Rader himself said he'd tapered off because of declining strength. He said that in the psychologist interview on TV.
I assume (without the benefit of experience!) that when a person is fighting for their life, with a lot of adrenalin involved they would not be terribly easy to subdue.
Surely you don't suggest that SK's that live on into their 80's and 90's are still killing people? |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 993
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
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That's cool you went back to college, Diana. I hope you're enjoying it.
I dont' know anything about active 90 year old serial killers. What I'm suggesting here is that serial killers can stop for reasons we don't really understand. I don't think questioning them is particularly useful because they lie. They're manipulators. So when this guy says he quit because of declining strength (and therefore he didn't really quit, rather age just caught up to him), it doesn't make sense to me because he was only in his late 40s at the time of his last murder. Actually detectives are now saying that Rader told them he was planning to kill someone else in Oct 2004 but couldn't get to her. I guess he thought he was still in good enough shape, if that story's true. If the Wichita Eagle had never run that 30th anniversary piece, I wonder if Rader would have just remained dormant, content with hassling people about their lawns, etc. Maybe instead of compulsion being the primary motivation, choice played a role somehow.
Anyway, we'll no longer be able to say with quite as much confidence that because the Whitechapel murders stopped, that must mean that the Ripper moved away, was imprisoned, or died. Don't get me wrong, that's a totally reasonable suggestion, but it's not necessarily so. It's no longer quite so far-fetched to speculate that he could have remained right there in London and just not killed again. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 751
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |
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Frank I agree with you. We can no longer assume that all SK's are loners with no social connections. |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 737
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 8:22 pm: |
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English not being my native tongue, I just wasn't sure, Diana. Thanks for your response.
Frank
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 752
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 7:05 am: |
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Frank, it isn't your English. I reread my post and I really didn't express myself well. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 753
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 10:26 pm: |
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I have been asking myself this since February when Rader was arrested. Would Dennis Rader be attracted to the Casebook?
Has he visited this website?
Might he not even be one of us posting quite regularly under a pseudonym?
Of course if he would, he has and he is, his posts will now cease abruptly. He might have had access to the internet before his conviction and sentencing (I hear that in some jails they even have cable TV.) but if the prosecutor is now demanding that he not even be given crayons . . . |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 755
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 2:08 pm: |
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BTK a poster on these boards?
I have been asking myself this since February when Rader was arrested. Would Dennis Rader be attracted to the Casebook?
Has he visited this website?
Might he not even be one of us posting quite regularly under a pseudonym?
Of course if he would, he has and he is, his posts will now cease abruptly. He might have had access to the internet before his conviction and sentencing (I hear that in some jails they even have cable TV.) but if the prosecutor is now demanding that he not even be given crayons . . .
Double post? No. I just thought the lead line ought to attract more interest. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 281
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
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Hey, let's all get our Betamaxes fired up for the BTK movie due out in October. Isn't The Hunt for the BTK Killer mildly redundant?
Goodies
Stan |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 764
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 2:41 pm: |
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Oh dear. I had such faith in the profilers. Look at this link. http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2005/03/profiling-is-junk-science-there-has-to.html It lists a whole bunch of profiles done by professionals before BTK was caught. I'm afraid none of them were very close.
I'm still hopeful that in time with a larger database profiling will come into its own. |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 868
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 4:29 pm: |
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Hi Diana,
While I certainly advise caution in taking profiles too dogmatically (as I did in this thread about the whole "he must have been locked up" thing and so forth) it's worth noting that quite a few of the things that blogger you linked to claimed were wrong actually were not.
So the guy is handpicking things that were wrong and ignoring parts that were right and even there is making mistakes in what he picks. That's not really a good way to do things.
I think profiling can be a tremendous help, it just needs to have more data collected first and then toss out some of the nonsense picked up from interviewing a tiny number of them long ago that could not be confirmed by outside sources. And then even there it'd be a guideline for the kinds of things we should expect, not hard and fast rules.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 426
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
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Hi all,
BTK was just one of many of the profiles gotten wrong. They need to get a new coin to flip.
The BTK movie is on next Sunday (2005OC09) at your local CBS station. I don't know about you but my DVD recorder is all programed.
Goodies,
Stan
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 437
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
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LAME LAME LAME!! In my opinion. The actor was OK though.
Stan |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 817
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 10:10 pm: |
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I've seen better and worse. Remember they had to cobble some parts together at the last minute. |
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