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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2655
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 2:32 pm: | 
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This was the outcome of the raid mentioned in Chapter 9 of "The Ripper Legacy" :
"THE TIMES" May 21st 1889
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 259
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 8:28 am: |
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Hello Everyone,
Just a thought about details of the Police Seaside Home at Hove: has anyone thought to contact the major local public library in Brighton?
And is there an East Sussex Records Office? That might have something useful on 51 Clarendon Villas. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2679
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 4:18 pm: |
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John, http://www.familia.org.uk/services/england/brighton_hove.html
But what question do we ask?
Maybe the Brighton conference next year will produce something.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 260
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 8:27 am: |
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Yes,
Thank you for the link Robert,
I think it would be wonderful if Brighton JTR Conferencers could swarm up Clarendon Villas looking over fences for the Old Policemen's Seaside Home.
But perhaps they should make a quick reconnoitre of the East Sussex Records Office beforehand. They might even have cuttings, photos and other relevant records concerning the Home.
(Surprises me if no-one has previously checked that avenue before!).
John Ruffels. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2682
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 10:39 am: |
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Hi John
I've just tried the email address on that link but it bounced straight back at me. I think I'll try good old pen and paper now.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2734
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 12:42 pm: |
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Hi all
I have contacted Paul Jordan at the Brighton History Centre at localhistory@brighton-hove.gov.uk and he has kindly sent me the following information :
The first Police Convalescent Home was opened at 51 Clarendon Villas in
1890, the ceremony performed by the Countess of Chichester. A Miss Griffin
found the house while a Miss Bell donated £500 which was enough to pay the
rent for three years. In the 1890 street directory it is listed as "
Lisburn House, Police Home of Rest, Miss Griffin." In 1892 it is described
as the "Police Seaside Home, Miss Griffin, Hon. Sec.". It appears once
again in 1893 at that address thereafter the new purpose home was situated
in Portland Road. The foundation stone was laid by Princess Christian in
October 1892 and it opened by the Countess of Chichester in July 1893. The
Countess was a patron for 21 years and there was a regular supply of goods
from Stanmer Park ( a large estate on the outskirts of Brighton).
regards, Paul Jordan, Brighton History Centre
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 2:24 pm: |
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Great stuff, Robert.
I am also pursuing this place and do hope to gather in some interesting details in the near future.
Shame that Paul Jordan didn't have a neat little list of all the residents of the home!
That's what I'm hoping to fish out of this sea full of Joe's old cod. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1198
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 4:03 pm: |
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Here we go, Robert, I've got to do this in two parts as I'm overawed by technology and brandy:
THE ROYAL PAVILION, LIBRARIES & MUSEUMS
Head of Division: Jessica Rutherford
Brighton & Hove City Council Hove Library I 82- 86 Church Road Hove BN3 2EG
22 July, 2004
our ref: ZL/ILamy
Hove Reference Library: Tel (01273) 296942/3
Fax (01273) 296947
E-mail zoelubowiecka@brighton-hove.gov when responding please contact Zoe Lubowiecka
Re; Police Convalescent Home. Hove
I read with interest your letter, enquiring about the residents of the home from 1890 to 1895. Clarendon Villas is in Hove, not Brighton, and as you will see from the enclosed photocopies the Home moved after a short while to what was at first named Clarendon Villas Road, and later Portland Road. The original house remains to this day.
While we have voters lists for the period, only the head of household is named in them. Temporary residents would not have had the right to vote in borough elections in any case. Street directories for the period, also name only the head of the household. We do have the census both for 1891 and 1901, and I enclose a copy of the former, in which you will observe that there are among others and visitors, a matron, and three policemen: James Hay or Day, Henry R Hatch /Marsh(?) and Frederick Child. I doubt that the person you seek is among these. You will observe from the photocopies from Judy Middleton's Encyclopaedia of Hove and Ports/ode, that the convalescent home has now moved to Goring. It is just possible that records may have followed them there.
With best wishes for your research
Zoe Lubowiecka
Library Officer, Hove Reference Library
(01273) 290000
A division of Culture & Regeneration - Strategic Director: Sarah Tanburn
Yours sincerely
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1199
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 4:08 pm: |
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Second bit, with my sincere thanks to Zoe at Brighton:
Encyclopaedia - Volume 10 - P
Dalkeith and Crowborough and for treasure in the Tower of London. He died on 12 October 1967.
POLICE see under HOVE POLICE and PORTSLADE POLICE.
POLICE SEASIDE HOME The Home at Hove (called officially the Convalescent Police Seaside Home) was the first in Britain. At the time it was built in Portland Road it was claimed to be 'in a charming position, at present open to the sea.' The Home, which was designed by JG Gibbens and approved in 1892, was a huge red brick building with gables and tall chimneys plus an imposing entrance. The well-known and philanthropic builder William Willett put it up at cost price, foregoing any profit while the landowner knocked £70 off his original asking price. This was r\pical of the spirit in which the enterprise was undertaken and there were many gifts, both large and small. Catherine Gurney was interested in police welfare and the idea for a Home was her brainchild. The need for such an institution was brought to her attention when she heard of a policeman who had been admitted to an ordinary convalescent home: he found in the next bed a criminal he had once arrested and promptly discharged himself. The first Home was at 51 Clarendon Villas, Hove and the Countess of Chichester opened it in 1890. Miss Griffin had found the house while Miss Bell provided £500. which was enough to pay the rent for three years. When it came to the new Home, Miss Bell came up with £2.025 while Henry Whiting of Lavender Hill sent a cheque for £3,000 in a scented pink envelope. At the other end of the scale a policeman's daughter sent a shilling because 'Father got well at the Home/ All this generosity led to the astonishing situation that although the finished building cost £9,210-7-9d, just two years after it opened the building debt fund amounted to £300. Princess Christian laid the foundation stone on 29 October 1892 and the Countess of Chichester opened it on 21 July 1893. In fact the Countess of Chichester was a patron for 21 years and there was a regular flow of goods from Stanmer Park. The fruit included grapes, peaches and strawberries while other produce yielded eggs, rabbits and a duck or two. At Christmas time local traders sent gifts of provisions and the public sent presents ranging from a patchwork quilt to a hand-painted text for the hall. There were frequent donations of books and periodicals and in 1903 Sir Arthur Conan Doyle sent a book. Many of the policemen who came to the Home were suffering from bronchitis, some were the
victims of assault while others had been injured in trying to stop runaway horses. During the severe influenza epidemic of 1895 there were between 50 and 60 men at the home at one time. In those days policeman had to work fourteen days at a stretch without a break and those who worked in London also had to endure the notorious Metropolitan fogs. In the summer months police officers were allowed to spend their annual leave at the home, providing there was not a heavy demand for beds.
In 1914 the committee decided to place 25 beds at the disposal of the War Office with preference being given to police reservists or volunteers from police forces. But by 1916 it was becoming too difficult to sort out the different casualties and so it was decided to set aside 20 beds for any wounded men. They came from all parts of the country and from Canada, South Africa and Australia. By the time this Auxiliary Military Hospital closed in February 1919 some 544 military and Naval patients had passed through the door. There were 67 cases of shell-shock, besides malaria, trench fever and various wounds. The Home continued in use until a new one was constructed at 205 Kingsway. The Queen Mother officially opened the new Home in 1966 and East Sussex County Council purchased the old one in December 1966. It was used by the social services for the elderly. The Kingsway Home had 44 bedrooms and was in operation for 22 years. By 1987 some 759 officers had been treated with the average length of stay being twelve days. It closed down on 18 June 1988 because a new Home had been opened at Goring-on-Thames, Berkshire. It cost £735,000 with £3 million spent on refurbishment. The Queen Mother officially opened it earlier in June 1988. Thus a link with Hove extending over a period of 98 years was broken. Peter Wood was superintendent of the Kingsway Home for the last eight years but neither he nor any of the 25 staff moved to Berkshire. The home was re opened a year later as the Excelsior Hotel.
Encyclopaedia of Hove and Portslade 49
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2739
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 4:58 pm: |
|
Marvellous stuff, AP. It's such a shame about the missing records. There don't seem to be any, either from the Home end or the Met end. Still, I can't help feeling there's something, somewhere. Hopefully the publicity generated by the conference will prevent any evidence that does remain from being destroyed.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1201
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 5:12 pm: |
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Thanks Robert.
I'm going to try the Goring-on-Thames connection as Zoe feels quite hopeful about that.
With all these clocks and seaside homes I seem to have forgotten my poetry.
If someone can assure me that conference will be at Brighton I will generate a storm of publicity. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2741
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 5:31 pm: |
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Hi AP
The poetry will come back, and we'll probably be writing about clocks, seaside homes and bad rabbits from Stanmer Park.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1205
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 4:07 pm: |
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I just love this one:
'Just Sisters, 205-209 Kingsway, at the Excelsior Hotel, Hove'
taken from a reference to gay bars in the UK.
The former Seaside Home is now a gay bar.
I'm packing me bags.
So is Tom-Tom.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2752
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 4:43 pm: |
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AP, I think I hear the report of a police service revolver.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1206
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 5:23 pm: |
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Several, Robert, when not a whole magazine.
I really must get back to the Tom-Tom story on the poetry thread, the sky is very much the limit now.
At least I'll be welcome at conference in the former Seaside Home in my convalascent mini-skirt.
You better put some glitter on your anorak. |
zoe lubowiecka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:41 am: |
|
Hi Guys - have just read your amusing correspondence on the Police Seaside Home. I think Lynn Daly of the Argus is going to send you all the information which I have already supplied: To Lamy???. The Original Seaside Home in Portland Road, was a nursing home when last I looked with an extremely unwelcoming director. The one built on the seafront is where you should turn up in your tu-tus
Zoe (at Hove, not brighton, email address has dot after first name) |
zoe lubowiecka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:35 am: |
|
Hi Guys - have just read your amusing correspondence on the Police Seaside Home. I think Lynn Daly of the Argus is going to send you all the information which I have already supplied: To Lamy???. The Original Seaside Home in Portland Road, was a nursing home when last I looked with an extremely unwelcoming director. The one built on the seafront is where you should turn up in your tu-tus
Zoe |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1222
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 5:56 am: |
|
Nice to hear from you, Zoe.
I tried mailing you several times but all were returned. Once again my thanks for all your help with this... the Argus article follows. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1223
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 5:57 am: |
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Clue to Jack the Ripper's identity
by Lynn Daly
Someone in Brighton and Hove could hold the ultimate clue to the identity of Jack the Ripper, investigators believe.
'Ripperologists' believe the Whitechapel murderer was brought to Hove to be identified at the end of his bloody killing spree. But his name remains a mystery.
So hot is the trail that the next international Jack the Ripper conference is to be held in the city.
Ripper fans believe someone, somewhere in Brighton and Hove may hold the key to identifying the killer.
Researcher and writer AP Wolf is centring his investigation on an imposing house in Portland Road, Hove, formerly Clarendon Villas Road.
Mr Wolf, from Jersey, said: "There is a little-known link between Jack the Ripper and Brighton and Hove. The house in question was a one-time seaside police convalescent home.
"According to records written in 1910 by Chief Inspector Swanson, the man in charge of the Ripper investigation, the chief suspect was arrested and held in a lunatic asylum.
"The only person who could identify him was in the seaside convalescent home so the suspect was hauled to Brighton to be paraded in front of this police officer."
Mr Wolf said the officer "unhesitatingly" identified him and the suspect was taken back to London and returned to the asylum awaiting trial.
Mr Wolf said: "I'm guessing the suspect was a disturbed young man called Thomas Hayne Cutbush, who did actually appear in court named as Jack the Ripper, and the person who identified him was his uncle, Chief Executive Superintendent Charles Henry Cutbush."
When the case came to court, the officer refused to give evidence against him. The suspect was sent to Broadmoor where he remained until he died. The officer subsequently went insane and shot himself in the head.
Mr Wolf said: "It is likely if records could be traced naming the residents of the home between 1890 and 1895, it might be possible to finally put a name to Jack the Ripper."
Mr Wolf, who has written a book about Jack the Ripper, said: "It seems there is a connection here and it is one of the strongest leads we have. I hope someone will be able to help us."
The Ripper case has fascinated people for more than 100 years. The knifeman is thought to have murdered five or more women in the East End of London in 1888.
Although he was not the first serial killer, he was the first to achieve such notoriety in the Press because he left his horribly mutilated victims lying in the street.
Fascination over the killings has spawned a whole industry and next year the Casebook Jack the Ripper conference is being held in Brighton in October.
Crime writers have now busied themselves with the Jack the Ripper's horrific cloak-and-dagger crimes for more than a century.
The mystery surrounding him has created an intellectual puzzle thousands of 'Ripperologists' are desperate to solve.
It is only recently the Ripper's modus operandi has been established. Rather than grabbing his victims from behind, it is now thought he stood face to face with the prostitute he was about to kill.
As the women hitched up their skirts with their hands, leaving them defenceless, he seized their throats. Once dead or unconscious he lowered them to the ground - always their heads to his left - before cutting their throats.
There was never any sign of intercourse but it is believed the killer had some degree of anatomical knowledge because of the speed and skill with which he removed some of their internal organs.
Mr Wolf said: "I would love to hear from anyone who might know how to track down the missing records and help us finally put a name to Jack the Ripper."
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2794
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 7:46 am: |
|
Well done, AP, and many thanks to Zoe and Lynn. Let's see what turns up.
Robert |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 6:34 pm: |
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Probably nothing as the context is all wrong. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1230
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 1:35 pm: |
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Let's not get trigger happy with uncle Charles' service pistol:
'We ran the piece on your search for residents of the convalescent home and
have had a number of replies.
One is from the local police federation who are making some inquiries, one
from a firm of solicitors (their founder member was the coroner in the
Ripper cases) and one from a woman whose grandfather was a resident at the
home.
She is happy to talk to you. Her name is Mary Funnell and her grandfather,
born 1865 was William Ecclestone Bamber. He served at Notting Hill station
and was sent to Hove to convalesce after a mishap with a drunk.'
|
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 422
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 2:13 pm: |
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I'm still puzzled by how Swanson's insistence that the witness was Jewish fits into this train of thought. And, for that matter, Swanson and Anderson clearly seem to be talking about an identification by a witness to the crime.
I don't really see how this idea about the Cutbushes at the Seaside Home works at all.
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 3:52 pm: |
|
I've only said that I would like it to be the Cutbushes bunkered down at the Seaside Home, but I would be more than happy with a list of all resident officers at the home during the years concerned, as it must be obvious that it is one of these good chaps that identified the suspect, whether that suspect was Jewish, ancient Egyptian or a Rasta doesn't make any difference to me.
It is the police officer I want.
Not the suspect. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2798
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 5:02 pm: |
|
I want both! May not get either,
Just a cleaning lady with scarlet fever.
Or maybe Jack was in such poor health
He went down to Hove and ID'd himself.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 272
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 7:40 am: |
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Wonderful sleuthing, A.P. and Robert.(In locating more details about the Convalescent Police Seaside Home).
I am afraid I cannot emulate Robert's jingling..
I agree with Chris, but can understand where A.P. is coming from, since he is looking for a magic list of police officer convalescents.
Now, back to London: surely, the burgeoning Police Union newsletters/journals would contain a list of serving police officers temporarily 'hors de combat' and convalescing at Hove?
What about the Home Secretary's Annual Report to Parliament? The Police Commissioner's Annual Report to the Home Secretary? Did these contain lists of senior-or Other Ranks-Metropolitan Police Officers not able to perform duties for the time being?
Does the Index to THE TIMES mention hot-shot high-up London Policemen nursing heads wrapped in vinegar and brown paper on the West Pier at Hove in 1888/9?
"Are all the courts and allies under constant observation?":
I'm sounding more like Queen Victoria by the minute! |
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 425
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 8:24 am: |
|
The difficulty is that Anderson and Swanson say both the witness and the suspect were Jewish.
I don't know what the answer is to this difficulty. I agree the natural conclusion to be drawn would otherwise be that the witness was at the Seaside Home at the time.
The other possibility I've thought about from time to time is that the Jewish witness was living near Hove at the time, and the Seaside Home perhaps proved a convenient place to hold the identification (if there was some kind of identity parade, perhaps the residents would have been useful as participants, particularly if the thing was being hushed up).
I suppose the other possibility is that Swanson was mixing up two different identifications - one by a police witness at the Seaside Home (remembering that Macnaghten and others remark on the Jewish suspect's resemblance to someone supposedly seen by a "City PC"), and another by a Jewish witness elsewhere.
Chris Phillips
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patricia
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 6:00 pm: |
|
Can anybody tell me if the home was exclusively for policemen. In my own family research I discovered that some church homes were also connected with police homes. So many beds for each. It could have made economical sense?. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2801
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 1:31 pm: |
|
Thanks John, but phew! that's quite a shopping list you've posted. When am I going to get my next cup of tea in?
While we're on Brighton : I know it's a silly question, but have the Druitt papers at the West Sussex Record Office been searched? (nothing to do with the Home, just for info on the Druitts). I imagine they have, but I'm just checking.
Chris, I can't fathom what(if anything) was going on at the Convalescent Home. It does seem a very strange place in which to ask a Jewish witness to implicate a Jewish suspect, bearing in mind its strong Christian associations.
Patricia, before the Home was founded, the police were offered places at various homes on a private charity basis. Also, after the Home was founded, relatives and guests were permitted (information from Paul Begg). I don't know whether "outsiders" were allowed to stay there.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1236
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 1:53 pm: |
|
Yes, it is a difficult situation, and I for one have always felt that the Seaside Home farce may have formed part of what I believe was an active campaign of 'disinformation' carried out by certain senior officers of the Met.
I'm quite sure - in my own mind - that the politics of the Metropolitan Police in the LVP would have split the force right down the middle:
half of them would have wanted a Jew to be JtR, the other half would have been horrified at the prospect of the racial tension.
I put the police officers, Cutbush, Anderson and Swanson in the camp of those who wanted someone from the 'Alien Nation' to be Jack the Ripper.
I posted the introduction to 'Alien Nation' on another thread specifically to highlight this very difficult situation.
With luck we might yet get a list of names and then to business.
And, just as an aside you must understand, I am beginning to get the notion that tainted blood from an 'Alien Nation' might have been the source of the Cutbush madness, for I am beginning to suppose that a Cutbush could very well be a Jew.
I am actively looking into this weird science. |
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 429
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 3:16 pm: |
|
Robert
If I remember correctly, Stewart Evans said that Keith Skinner had searched the Druitt papers at West Sussex Record Office.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2803
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 3:50 pm: |
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AP, Chris
Thanks for that, Chris. There's supposed to be a letter written by Monty, isn't there?
AP, there was a Reuben Cutbush. I must say, though, I never had the Cutbushes as Jewish - though I saw a black Cutbush mentioned in the "Times".
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 432
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 4:01 pm: |
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Robert
Yes, I have a copy of MJD's letter, and it's reproduced in "Letters from Hell".
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1238
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 4:18 pm: |
|
Sorry Robert
I was of course mixing up Thomas Hayne Cutbush with Thomas Hayne:
'Prior to Hammond's Paraphrase, similar ideas could be found in the English schoolmaster, Thomas Hayne's (Hayne, Thomas, Christs Kingdom on Earth, (1645).) writings. In 1645, Hayne wrote that Daniel's prophecies had been entirely fulfilled in the history of Israel up through the time of Christ. '
A simple error. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2805
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 4:44 pm: |
|
Chris, I'll have to get that book.
Re Cutbush, I think it's worth investigating the Home from the Cutbush angle (as well as the Polish Jew angle) because Supt Cutbush was pensioned in 1891. Five years later, he shot himself whilst of unsound mind. So it's possible his health was beginning to suffer in 1891 or before. As a high-ranking officer he'd obviously have had access to the Home should he have required it. In the same year, 1891, his "nephew" (Macnaghten's word) is sent to Broadmoor. There seems to be a lot happening in 1891.
Robert |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 2:39 am: |
|
Hi all,
In the his own personal copy of The Lighter Side Of My Official life did not Swanson write the name of the suspect and did he not name Kosminski? Did they not claim to know who Jack the ripper was at the time of the murders? I only ask because I watched the Discovery channel's documentary Jack The Ripper An On Going Mystery were the show claims that Anderson and Swanson were sure that Kosminski was Jack the ripper and that he was identified by Isereal Shwartz. When did the Seaside Identification take place. Why would the identification take place in such a seaside home?
All the best,CB |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2905
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 3:02 pm: |
|
Hi CB
The trouble is, Anderson's and Swanson's remarks don't really mesh together. I don't think either Anderson or Swanson claimed to know JTR's identity at the time of the murders.
Re Schwartz, I get the impression that most of the Polish Jew theorists are relying on Lawende.
Robert |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 159
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:55 pm: |
|
CB,
The 'identification' took place years after the murders, and thus is useless as evidence. As Anderson, in his public writings, leaned pretty heavily on this identification as evidence that his Jewish lunatic was the Ripper, I'd say he didn't have much else to go on. As for the witness, an argument could be made for either Schwartz or Lawende, but most seem to think it was Lawende. The funny thing is, Lawende stated at the time he saw a woman who MAY have been Eddowes with a man that he'd never recognize the man again, because he didn't get a good enough look. In the case of Schwartz, it's likely that the man he saw pushing Stride around wasn't even her killer. So, had the identification taken place THE NEXT DAY with either of these men, and not YEARS later, as was the case, it still would have most likely proved useless in identifying the Ripper.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:30 am: |
|
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your responce. I agree that Anderson and Swanson had nothing more then a eye witness testimony to work with. If I had to pick who I thought the witness was it would be Schwartz not Lewende and there is some doubt that he even saw the ripper or even Stride for that matter. I was unaware that the identification took place years after the fact. The murders stoped afte the Kelly murder so you would think that the identification would have taken place shortly after her murder but if I understand the theory correct something happend years after the last murder to bring suspicion on to the insane jew and the police had the only person who they thought got a good look at the ripper identifiy him. I would think in order for the murders to stop after Kelly then something had to have happend to the the ripper soon after the Kelly murder.
I think if someone is going to back the insane Jew theory then he has to support Kosminski. There can be little doubt that Anderson and Swanson believed they knew who the ripper was and since they worked so close together it would make sence that they supported the same man and the only name given was Kosminski. I do not understand any other theory that has been put forth by other commentators that suggest that any other person other then Kosminski could have been the man that Anderson and Swanson were refering to. The fact that the Mcnaughton memo mentions Kosminski would also suggest that he was the man that was in fact the lunitic referd to and it would mean that the identification took place befor 1894? Abberlines lack of knowledge or distrust of such an identification is interesting.
All the best,CB |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:52 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
Thanks for taking the time to rspond to my post. Anderson implies very much that he knew the identity of the ripper. and he states if they had the power of the french police the ripper would have been brought to justice. He claims that the ripper was a polish jew living in the heart of the city and that his people were protecting him. He even goes as far to say that he is tempted to name who Jack the ripper was.
I do not know enough about Lewende or Shwartz to be of any use to anyone but that is my knew project to learn as much about this as possible. I agree that growing centiment is leaning twards Lewende. The documentary is five years old. Have you seen the show?
It does not matter who the witnesses was. Anderson and Swanson worked close together. They claimed the ripper was known to them. They both claimed he was a polish Jew and He was Identified by a witness. Anderson does not give a name. Swanson names Kosminski.
I am not sure how the names of Cutbush or David Cohen has been put forth as the man identified by the witness.
All the best,CB
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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 165
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:29 am: |
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Hello CB,
CB writes:
Thanks for your responce. I agree that Anderson and Swanson had nothing more then a eye witness testimony to work with.
Actually, CB, there must have been more information to promote Kosminski as a Ripper suspect, otherwise why have such an identification take place? We just don't really know what that evidence is. What we DO know, after the fact, is that it wasn't strong enough to charge and convict, and the 'identification' seemed to be the weightiest piece of evidence.
CB writes: if I understand the theory correct something happend years after the last murder to bring suspicion on to the insane jew and the police had the only person who they thought got a good look at the ripper identifiy him. I would think in order for the murders to stop after Kelly then something had to have happend to the the ripper soon after the Kelly murder.
Actually, CB, certain officials suspected a poor Jew as the killer very early on in the case, and focused their attention on that area of investigation. More than race, though, they appear to have been convinced that the Ripper was in some way insane. Look at the three Macnaughten suspects: two lunatics and a 'sexually insane' man who killed himself.
CB writes: I think if someone is going to back the insane Jew theory then he has to support Kosminski. There can be little doubt that Anderson and Swanson believed they knew who the ripper was and since they worked so close together it would make sence that they supported the same man and the only name given was Kosminski. I do not understand any other theory that has been put forth by other commentators that suggest that any other person other then Kosminski could have been the man that Anderson and Swanson were refering to. The fact that the Mcnaughton memo mentions Kosminski would also suggest that he was the man that was in fact the lunitic referd to and it would mean that the identification took place befor 1894? Abberlines lack of knowledge or distrust of such an identification is interesting.
Actually, CB, there is a well-known alternate theory to the identity of Anderson's Polish Jew, and it's in the book 'The Crimes, Detection, and Death of JTR' by Martin Fido. At first, it's a difficult theory to grasp, as it involves a lot of errors in identity. Also, I might add, we don't know that Swanson shared Anderson's conviction about Kosminski as the Ripper. Only Anderson is on record stating that such a thing was an ascertained fact.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
All the best,CB |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2921
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 4:44 am: |
|
HI CB, Tom
CB, if you can't get hold of the CDD, Fido gives a summary of it in the Mammoth book. "Jack the Myth" by AP Wolf is available on this site.
Tom, do not Swanson's words "because his evidence would convict the suspect, and witness would be the means of murderer being hanged" implicitly support Anderson, particularly the word "murderer"?
Robert |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 172
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 10:03 pm: |
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Robert,
I think he'd have an easier time getting Fido's book. Just go to abe.com and order it. That simple. 
As for the your other comment, I don't like being shown up. So shame on you! Yes, you're right, and I have no idea why that didn't occur to me. Good thing you were here. Thanks Robert!
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 5:04 pm: |
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I fear I'm confused.
Does the following really mean that there were two Seaside Homes in the LVP for the terribly confused officers of the Met?
'NPCH & St. George's Fund
A Brief History ... part 2
A home at West Brighton was bought in March 1890. In the first year, over 100 officers attended. This home was too small and Miss Gurney began fund-raising and soon raised £8,000 for new premises. A house in Portland Road, Hove was bought in July 1893. In its first year of opening, 457 officers visited the Home at Hove. In tandem with her caring for the officers, Miss Gurney also did not forget the wives and families and, at the same time, a small orphanage was founded; this was after Miss Gurney found five children of a police constable in a country workhouse, which nearly broke her heart.
After a number of years at Hove, the orphanage was relocated to Redhill where it became known as the Southern Provincial Police School.'
Please enlighten me.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1345
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 5:36 pm: |
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Whatever... the Hayne clan are still at it:
'First published on Friday 22 September 2000:
Ex-postie's 24-year wait for a card
by Nigel Freedman
Former postman Frank Haynes has taken delivery of a postcard he sent to his family 24 years ago.
Frank popped it into a letterbox on Hove seafront while he was convalescing after a back operation in 1976.
He expected the card to drop through the letterbox of his home in Birmingham a few days later.
It had still not arrived when he returned after spending two weeks recovering from the operation and he thought no more about it.
But he and wife Morleen were stunned when a plastic bag containing a card and a note from the Post Office dropped on to his mat on Tuesday.
The note simply apologised for the fact the card had been slightly damaged but mentioned nothing about it being a bit late.
Frank, 71, hurt his back while working on a car in 1975 and underwent an operation a year later.
Because he was a serving policeman he was sent to the police convalescent home at Hove.
Frank sent Morleen, now 69, a card to say he had arrived safely and on October 6, 1976, he posted a second to let her know how he was getting on.
The first arrived after a few days, the second last Tuesday.
Frank left the police to become a postman and retired at 61.
He said: "When this plastic bag dropped through the door on Tuesday, I had no idea what it was.
"The writing was faded with age but I thought it looked like mine.
"When I turned it over and saw the picture of The Lanes it suddenly hit me that it was the card I posted in 1976.
"Morleen and I were amazed. We have no idea why it has taken so long. The Post Office have given no explanation."
A Royal Mail spokesman said: "We would not like to comment on how this particular card was seemingly delivered 24 years after it was posted.
"We get regular claims about mail which turns up years after it was supposedly posted, some from as long ago as the Forties.
"When we investigate them, a great number have been reposted so we tend to treat these claims with healthy scepticism."
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2964
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 5:48 pm: |
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Hi AP
This is from an email from Paul Begg :
The background to the Police Seaside Home is just a little complicated. Convalescent policemen were sent to various public convalescent homes but
the police did not have a home of their own. Very often a policeman received
convalescence as a charitable donation. For example, a Mrs. Fenwick of the
Postman's Convalescent Home, Brighton, offered accommodation for policemen,
a Mr Barton offered 2-3 weeks defrayed costs to a policeman convalescent at
St. Luke's Home Torquay and a Mrs Kitts offered accommodation for 10 or 12
policemen requiring rest at Clacton-on-Sea. Another establishment used was
one at Bexhill. This was extremely unsatisfactory and during the winter of
1887 a number of people under the presidency of the Duke of Norfolk formed a committee for the purpose of receiving public subscriptions for the purpose of forming a Convalescent Home fund. In February 1888 a Mrs Rusher of Dover offered premises there to the police and up to 50 policemen convalesced there and for a time there was discussion about buying the premises. The fund remained open until the end of 1888 when the monies were handed over to two Tustees - Warren and Frazer - and placed in a bank. There then followed a lot of talk but little action. Meantime, Catherine Gurney,
O.B.E., President of the International Christian Police Association,
realised that the police needed a convalescent home of their own and with
the assistance of a Miss Griffin she managed to open an establishment at 51
Clarendon Villas. It was officially opened in 1890 by the Countess of
Chichester - this is the building in which Ripperologists are interested. It
didn't stay in existence for very long because in 1892-3 a new building was
erected on freehold ground, monies being provided by a Miss E.M. Bell. The
foundation stone was laid in October 1892 by H.R.H. Princess Christian, and
the Home was opened by the Countess of Chichester in July 1893. It was
enlarged four times. In 1966 the Home moved to 205 Kingsway.
And this card has just been delivered to 14 Albert St, Newington :
Dear Mother
Having a great time at the seaside with Uncle Charles, but I wish that strange Mr Kosminski would stop playing with his little stick of Brighton rock.
Yours truly
Tom
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1346
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 2:23 pm: |
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Thanks for that Robert.
So there could have been about 20 of the blessed Seaside homes in all! Nightmare!
One does wonder what all these Met coppers were suffering from.
Loved the card from Tom. |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:01 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
Thanks for the information. I am very interested in both Fido's and wolf's theories.
Your friend,CB |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 3:24 am: |
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Hi Tom,
Thanks for responding to my post. Obviously they must of had some reason to suspect Kosminski because they did ask the witness to identify him. we do not know what the reason was. I gues what I should of said was the only hard evidence would have been the eye witness testimony. If the witness had not identified him would they have still been convinced that Kosminski was the ripper?
I realise that the a great deal of the detectives thought that the ripper was a poor polish jew living in the heart of the area. I guess I should have said regarding this particular theory regarding this particular suspect something must of happend to make the police years later ask the witness to identifiy the suspect.
I do not know much about Mr.Fido's theory but if remember correctly. He believed that the ripper was a man by the name of David Cohen. A poor imergrint jew and he was put in the asylum by the police and he was a very violent man. He uses a word that made me think that his theory did not apply hear. [And again I am not read up on his theory] He says that David Cohen is put in the asylum at the persice time for the murders to stop. Assumeing he thinks that Kelly was the last victim [I do not know this for fact] Then the identification may have taken place sooner then years later. So I do not know if he supports a seaside identification that happend years later. I did not want to mention Mr.Fido in any of my post because I would not want to offend him. It would be like me asking Tiger Woods to join my foursome.
I believe there is evidence to suggest that Swanson shared Andersons convictions about Kosminski. He wrote down in the margines of his personal copy of Andersons book notes. In 1987 a reletive of Swanson published the notes in the Daily Telegraph. I believe the name he wrote in the margines dureing the part were Anderson wrote about knowing the identity of the ripper was Kosminski. He then initials this. I have never read the notes in full. I wish I could. I know that he could have just have been writeing the name of the man that Anderson thought was the ripper and he may have not agreed. Since I have not read the notes I can not discuss this. I can only say that I thought that Swanson was writeing the name of the man down that they both thought was the ripper. I do not believe that Swanson intended for those notes ever to be published.
I have not read Mr. Fido's book on Cohen or Wolf's book on Cutbush so I am probably surfing in waters I should not but as of right now I would have to guess if a seaside identification took place then the man the witness identified would have been Kosminski.
Thanks again Tom for your comments and please blast away at any thing that you may disagree with. I am not thin skined and value your oppinion along with anyone elses. I do not post to inform I post to learn.
Your Friend,CB |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 181
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 10:19 pm: |
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Robert,
For a minute there I thought that 'postcard' was in reference to me, then I remembered, 'Cutbush'! Saved yourself from another lashing!
CB,
Fido's book is easy enough to get online or at the library. As for A.P. Wolf's book, you've got two options - pay $5,000,000 for a first edition, or read and updated version on THIS site for free! Personally, I hate reading long texts online, though I hate paying small fortunes for books even more. I must say it's a well-written book and goes down easier than most I've read. Worth the effort.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
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