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Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3243
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 9:20 am: | 
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A brief interview with Tony Williams, author of the recent book Uncle Jack, can be found on the Casebook at:
http://www.casebook.org/authors/interviews/int-tw.html
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1005
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 9:50 am: |
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Stephen
Thank you for posting this interview.
Is there any mechanism by which relevant information could be forwarded to Mr Williams?
I think at least he should be told that he is wrong about Jonathan Davies, as the man he found at Brymbo in 1881 was still living in 1901:
http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4925&post=127713#POST127713
Chris Phillips
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2432
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 9:54 am: |
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Hi,
I still fail to see what exactly the knife would be tested for?
Anyone know what Williams has in mind?
Jenni |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 684
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:14 pm: |
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Hi Jenni,
In mind? Publicity no doubt.
What I find most interesting about the interview is that he seems to make a few claims without really doing research to see if they make sense.
Getting confused on which Davies he found is probably excusable. Assuming that someone named "Mary Anne Nichols" has to "very specifically" be Mary Ann Nichols based solely on the name and no other research is less so. But talking like he's really going to get the police to reopen the Ripper case after all these years so that they can force testing on the knife is really out there.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1460
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
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Hi Jenni
There is an interview with Tony Williams and his co-author Humphrey Price upcoming in Ripperologist 59 as well. In the interview we are publishing, I have to say that the authors do not make it entirely clear what they hope to achieve by suggesting DNA testing of the knife. One of our questions was what could be used to test any DNA on the knife against, given what we know, that it is probable that the question is moot about there being any victims' remains intact or uncontaminated. While they had no real answer to this question, the authors indicated that they felt they ought to urge such testing of the knife, that it would be negligent not to do so, just as they thought testing should be done of the medical slides that were with the knife.
Best regards
Chris George
(Message edited by ChrisG on May 16, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:02 pm: |
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Dan
Getting confused on which Davies he found is probably excusable. Assuming that someone named "Mary Anne Nichols" has to "very specifically" be Mary Ann Nichols based solely on the name and no other research is less so.
I just think some kinds of research are so easy to do through the Internet these days that stuff like this really isn't excusable (if it ever was).
It takes only a few seconds to find that in 1881 there were 22 women named Mary Ann Nichols living in London alone.
Equally, on the Jonathan Davies question, presumably he is claiming this backs up his "identification" of Mary Kelly, so it's a matter of some importance. So I think he'd be culpable for failing to check whether the man did in fact survive the 1880s even if it were still a question of looking through the census returns on microfilm. As he can be found in 1901 with only a few clicks of the mouse, I can't see what excuse there is, if he's actually going to take people's money for his book.
Actually, I've never understood why there's no legal constraint on what can be passed off as non-fiction - so much of it is demonstrable nonsense these days.
Chris Phillips
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 685
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:48 pm: |
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Hi Chris (Phillips),
I'm sure you're right that I was being too lenient on the guy. I guess I was comparing his mistakes and faulty logic to that of other books in the field, where this is sadly all too common.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2433
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 3:58 pm: |
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Hi everybody,
I mean several things strike me on this DNA thing,
#1 I don't know how viable DNA testing is on an object that is 110 plus years old and has not been in clinical conditions. How many people have contaminated it? Lots I would think.
#2 Compare the DNA to what? If DNA can be extracted what is there to compare it too? No DNA samples of the victims exist. Yes we know where there remains are, personally I wouldn't advocate digging them up on the basis of this book. Even then, we don't know what conditions the remains would be in. how would we know we had the right body. I would think several were buried in pauper graves right?
#3 possibly we might be able to compare DNA to relatives which exist. We know of some Eddowes and Chapman relatives (or at least we know the people who know) Nichols had family. Kelly definitely didn't have family at least not that we can say for certain was hers. I don't know about Stride.
#4 Even if we can get that entire DNA AND eliminate it (which after reading the book is what I think would happen) that still would not disprove that Sir John Williams is innocent.
So what is the point?
As for the slides, again what are we testing them for? To see if it is Uterus, well that would hardly be an astounding fact considering the guy was an obstetrician
Jenni
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2082
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 4:48 pm: |
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It is simple.
You mention Jack the Ripper you make a bit of money.
You mention Jack the Ripper and DNA you make loads of money. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1755
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 4:55 am: |
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Hi Dan,
But talking like he's really going to get the police to reopen the Ripper case after all these years so that they can force testing on the knife is really out there.
Spot on. I never understand why anyone would think the police here in the UK have the time or the budget for this kind of stuff.
It will always depend on bagloads of private money, and even then we can depend on any results being hotly disputed.
Love,
Caz
X |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2437
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 8:26 am: |
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AP,
but it doesn't make sense!!
Jenni
"Stay away from that trap door,
Cos' there's somethin' down there"
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 556
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 10:23 am: |
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AP,
Quite right -- it sells books. At the very least it will make your book the topic of conversation in the world beyond these boards and that can mean sales.
I would suspect the very last thing the author would want would be a full range of DNA tests. But to call for the tests, to start a clamor for tests the authorities are not going to want to be bothered (or billed) to do -- now that is a Ka-ching! thing.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2438
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 10:28 am: |
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But the tests dont make sense!
"Stay away from that trap door,
Cos' there's somethin' down there"
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 391
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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Great line , A.P.... seriously,a great line. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2085
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 11:05 am: |
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Thanks Don
for that very reason I've a good mind to retitle the 'Myth' when I publish the new and revised edition later this year as:
'DNA Jack and the Forensic Myth'.
That should sell.
Jennifer
nothing ever made sense in the world of JtR publishing.
Accept that as a golden rule.
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2439
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
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fair enough - but whats the point of calling for it then!!
geez weird book!
(Message edited by jdpegg on May 17, 2005)
"Stay away from that trap door,
Cos' there's somethin' down there"
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Liza
Police Constable
Username: Liza
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
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OK folks
Think of a suspect.............
was he in Whitechapel?
well he might have been.
Did he know MJK?
well he mentioned a Mary
So
It's SO SIMPLE!!!!!
He WAs Jack the Ripper
CASE CLOSED (OK been used before - um - Case solved?!)
Think I'll have to write a book, should pay my mortgage off...
so who was it?
I know ..........
My long lost Uncle Fred!
well he did know someone called Mary, he once had a curry in Brick Lane, he owned a 6 inch knife (he used to trim his nails with) but better still!!!!!!
he had his appendix taken out in London!
So he WAS the Ripper!
So who wants to put up the money so I can write this best seller?
Please folks, if people are going to write books, they must do in-depth research that can be verified.
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Liza
Police Constable
Username: Liza
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 4:58 pm: |
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So here is a picture of him!
and yes, his name was JACK
I'm a failure!
Actually I have a pic of him but I've no idea how to put it on this message board!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4402
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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Liza, you just said his name was Fred. I'm beginning to think there's something fishy about your theory....
Robert |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 558
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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Liza,
How true, how true. But you had better be careful because the researchers on these boards might quickly prove "Uncle Fred" was actually having an appendix transplant in Aberdeen at the time you said he was in London having it out. And these days you really MUST have a diary -- the more torn-out pages the better it seems.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Liza
Police Constable
Username: Liza
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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That's what his friends called him!
Fishy, yes
bit like a kipper! |
Liza
Police Constable
Username: Liza
Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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Donald
Yes the torn out pages are interesting!
They, of course, disclosed the time his appendix burst! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2090
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
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I don't know about this fish business, could be Joe's old cod again, but I do find everything a bit slender, almost sylph-like in fact. |
Liza
Police Constable
Username: Liza
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 3:07 am: |
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On a serious note, at the begining of July I'm going to Denbigh, I thought a quick look around the graveyards/parish records might be illuminating! |
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 153
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 11:37 am: |
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Jenni
I'm afraid I havn't followed this whole thread but I beleive if you talk to Neil Sheldon you will discover living relatives for all the victims but Kelly.
I gather from the Rominov DNA identification, that using relatives can be problamatic.
If you could get DNA from a knife (which I very much doubt) tests from the relatives could give you an interesting comparison but not exact matches.
Had the same problems with bones recovered from the Gaul.....people still disputing some of the results. There we had four sets of bones taken from the Trawler at the bottom of the Barrent sea and matched to direct decendants...one match was only 1-100 probability. Direct descendants.
What would be the odds three or four generations removed?
Just a thought
Jeff
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2512
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 12:20 pm: |
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AP
Knew there'd a 'plaice' for us on this thread...Jack the kipper no doubt! (groan!)
Ok lets stick to the brandy at sick squid a bottle...hey off to Spain in July for a fortnight...... will strap a case to a canoe and write Portsmouth on it!!!
Suzi x |
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 155
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 9:06 am: |
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Suzi
Not the jack the Kipper joke please...
I did however lissen to the authour of Uncle Jack on LBC radio this morning....
All he seems to be claiming is his uncle worked in whitechappel as a doctor in 1888.
He appears to have been doing illeagal abortions.
The pages of the diary relating to this period have been torn out (very damning, perhaps he could employ Mike Barrett to rewrite them for him)
That in a letter he states he was perforing an abortion on a Mary Anne Nichol's the day of her death. (if this is true it is more interesting).
That a knife and three slides exist in a wales museum. That have....drum roll...blood on them.
Apparently his publisher was the co author and an eldrely relative who new Uncle Jack is refusing to talk to him...he has my sympathy.
Jeff |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2448
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 10:10 am: |
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its Tony Williams first cousin five times removed i feel sorry for. Having had the pleasure of reading the book.
However, to give the guy credit, i dont think he states John was performing an abortion on nichols the day of her death,
That said i understand relatively little of this book.
one day i'll read it again!
Jenni
ps since i own a copy!
"Stay away from that trap door,
Cos' there's somethin' down there"
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Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 108
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 10:12 am: |
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Jeff,
Being here in the states I didn't hear the interview.
Is the relative not talking to him because he feels the author lied or not talking to him because he aired the family's "dirty laundry"?
Just wondering if a reason was given.
Thanks,
Carolyn  |
Jeff Leahy
Inspector
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 157
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
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Hi Carolyn
From what I gathered he is saying that the family are not talking to him because he is airing the family laundry in public.
However that said the author was not very eliquant. What came across is that this relative was 'unhappy'. He would have been young when he new Uncle Jack, twelve i gathered.
The peresenter James Obrian was bigging up the book but he is pretty useless. You should be able to access LBC talk radio online in the States. I know its a bit late now...and to be honest you didnt miss much.
Jenni I may have got the day wrong but I'm sure he said he had a letter conecting Mary anne Nichols to an abortion.
Jeff |
Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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Jeff,
Thanks for your reply, I was just wondering what the family thought about all of this.
Carolyn  |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1469
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:36 am: |
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Hi Carolyn and Jeff
From what I can understand, there is some thought that Sir John Williams's missing pages from his 1888 diary as well as various other papers may be missing because they may have been destroyed by his widow to hide evidence of an extramarital affair. Not for the reason the authors are implying, i.e., that he was implicated in the Whitechapel murders.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
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Carolyn
The family's reaction is also mentioned in the interview on this site:
[SPR] What has been the general reaction amongst members of the Williams family, after the release of "Uncle Jack"?
TW: My brother and mother thought I was writing about Sir John's achievements so they were helpful with any questions I had. When the book was published my mother was surprised and my brother, who was close to my gran, is not happy. My father doesn't agree with the book, he feels that family matters should be kept in the family.
By the way, isn't the suggestion that Williams was treating women who had been injured by botched illegal abortions, not that he was carrying out illegal abortions himself?
Chris Phillips
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Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:59 am: |
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Chris,
Sorry I missed that one. I have got to read things more carefully. I guess I need to invest in reams of paper so I can print this stuff out and pay more attention!!!! I am from the "old school" of reading printed pages.
Thanks,
Carolyn  |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2449
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
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Chris,
yes as i understand it that is the suggestion.
Jenni
"Stay away from that trap door,
Cos' there's somethin' down there"
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2450
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 12:28 pm: |
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has anyone else read this, or am i the saddest person on the boards!!?
"Stay away from that trap door,
Cos' there's somethin' down there"
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Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 12:52 pm: |
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I have read bits of it Jenni, courtesy of good old WH Smiths!...I was interested in his MJK research, but there wasn't much of it!
Debra
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2516
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 1:18 pm: |
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I HAVE READ IT AND SO HAS jEN AND SO HAVE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WITH SERIOUSLY LISTENABLE COMMENTS.......cOME ON...........how DID THIS GET PUBLISHED? WHEN THERES A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH A LOT TO SAY WHO ARE TURNED DOWN?
sUZI
(oH gOD HAD CAPS lock on but cant be bothered to go back cos am going out! )
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2451
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 3:15 pm: |
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Suzi,
new suspect I guess, tedious relationship. come on everybody hunt down those first cousins five times removed!
Jenni
"Stay away from that trap door,
Cos' there's somethin' down there"
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James Jeffrey Paul
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
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Suzi:
I'm not a Welsham, I'm not a Yid,
Nor yet a foreign skipper,
But I'm your own light-hearted friend,
Yours truly Jack the Kipper!
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