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Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 195
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 3:03 am: |       |
Hi,
I too do not think the graffiti had anything to do with the killer. My posting about 'toys' was done rather toungue in cheek to demonstrate that if you want to just about anything can be 'connected'.
I have to disagree with Natalie about the amount of graffiti actually present at the time. Contemporary accounts do say there was a lot of about.
Bob |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 825
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 3:39 am: | |
hi Bob,I agree there may have been a lot of it about but that they didnt say that at the inquest
made me wonder whether there was all that much of note.
I must say I was interested to read that Dew in hindsight at anyrate thought that the graffiti was probably not written by the killer---mind he was writing 50 years later!
Natalie |
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1151
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 5:48 am: | |
Scott,
I personally think the killer most likely wrote it because the coincidence of the apron is too much but that isn't that important to me when trying to interpret the meaning of the message. I agree with you with what you say if a Jew wrote it, but what if a Jew didn't write it, then it sounds like someone really doesn't like the Jews and is saying that "the Jews won't be blamed without good reason". That's me understanding of it anyway.
One reason though that I think it's possible that the killer wrote it is, that he took his time wth mutilating his victim that night and so I don't think stopping to write a message on a wall would be that unusual to him.
Sarah
(Message edited by Sarah on May 19, 2004)
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to 
Smile too much and the world will guess  |
Scott Suttar
Sergeant
Username: Scotty
Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 6:06 am: | |
Sarah,
Your interpretation might well be right if a Jew didn't write it and of course this is a strong possibility.
The reason I don't think the murderer wrote the graffiti i guess goes deeper than the means and opportunity. Certainly he could have been carrying chalk or even found some by chance. Stranger things have happened. Likewise your point regarding taking time over his victim is well made and he certainly could have had the opportunity to write the message. But in terms of motive it seems to be a very strange message to send. In general (I understand some don't think this) the killings are percieved as being attacks on a very particular group of people, namely the lowest class of prostitute. So i guess in terms of the killers politics it seems strange to me to suddenly switch from one target group to another. I am willing to accept that this could be diversionary, I just find it unlikely.
Scotty. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1802
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 8:07 am: | |
Scott,
"In general (I understand some don't think this) the killings are percieved as being attacks on a very particular group of people, namely the lowest class of prostitute. So i guess in terms of the killers politics it seems strange to me to suddenly switch from one target group to another. I am willing to accept that this could be diversionary, I just find it unlikely."
A good point. I can agree with this.
Sarah,
As I said, if the killer wanted to leave some sort of communication or message, he most likely would have done so in direct connection with the body, especially as he -- as you point out -- took time over his victims.
There would be no point in bothering with a small text in an entrance to an apartment building. He couldn't be sure that the police would search Goulston Street and he couldn't be sure of that the police really would pay any attention to or spot the piece of apron in the first place (and even if they did, there would be no garantee that they would spot the message either). These matters would be of greatest importance if it would be any point whatsoever for him to write that message.
And again, the coincidence factor is strongly exaggerated, since there probably were a lot of writings on the walls of Whitechapel anyway. They would hardly be uncommon in environments as these.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1125
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 8:54 am: | |
Glenn,
Here-here,
Very well put.
You all know what Monty says....
"Never talk to strangers"
No, wait, not that one....this one...
"If he had time to nick the lids...."
Monty
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1803
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 9:53 am: | |
Thanks Monty,
I believe Ian made some similar points on the Radka thread, by the way.
Seems like Monty says a lot of things, although "never talk to strangers" always works, of course...
Ah! What's this? No signature?
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on May 19, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1158
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:23 am: | |
Scott,
I can see where you're coming from. If he was only attacking prostitutes, or those he thought were prostitutes then why suddenly write a race hate message about Jews. Unless of course he was trying to pin it on the Jews.
Regardless of who wrote it though, I think this message was most likely written by a non-Jew and was a race hate message.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:00 am: | |
Sarah makes an excellent point: if he had just spent some significant time over the body mutilating it why would he hesitate to spend a few seconds chalking a message on a wall some distance away?
As far as the message itself goes, wouldn't it have to have been written sometime during the night of the killing? Otherwise some resident would have spotted it and--since it was perceived as anti-Semitic--perhaps rubbed it out. Or at least they would have remembered seeing it beforehand. It strains credibility that some other person chose THAT NIGHT of all nights to chalk it there, and Jack just happened to drop the apron at just that spot. I understand that it is POSSIBLE--I just don't think it very likely.
Regards, Vincent |
Heikki Annala
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 8:34 am: | |
Hi,
Were there enough light in the entrance to write a small text in the night?
Heikki |
P F arm
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 8:31 am: | |
There is a dissertation (or are there two?) on these boards that suggests that PC Long may have been responsible for the graffitti.Yet no one on this thread seems to be considering this theory. Is this because it's disscussed else where? or generally not believed possible?
Having read the dissertation i see it as a reason for the positioning on the graffitti in relation to the apron with out having a cocky JtR hanging around scribbling on the wall or just chance.
I would be interested in hearing your opinions as to the possibility/plausability of this scenario.
|
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 237
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 5:35 pm: | |
Whatho Heikki,
No, there wasn't enough light. On the contrary, it was very dark. See my posts in the past (my word, these arguments go in circles; cue Noel Harrison).
As for PC Long writing it: well he did have a lamp.
Cheers, Mark |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 230
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 7:37 pm: | |
Hey Everybody,
Sarah, it looks like we are the only people that thinks the killer probably wrote the message.
Oh, yea, Vincent too. Vince, I agree that the message, if spotted by the folks living there..
which were mostly Jews, would have erased it.
Glenn, I dont think the coincidence is exaggerated at all. Scenario.... lets say that my car runs out of gas.
Lets say that there are 10,000 houses and other establishments within 5 square miles of where my car breaks down. If there are 100 gas stations in the area, what are the chances of my car running out of gas in front of the gas station?
about 10%...which is not very likely.
My point is that even though there were other places with graffiti, the chance is not that great that he just happened to place the apron beneath a message like that. Im not saying that it couldnt have happened by chance, Im saying that the chances dont support it. Best regards.
Paul |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1806
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 7:55 pm: | |
Hey Paul,
Firstly, we don't know how many writings there were on the walls in Whitechapel. Considering the environment and social conditions, I'd say there were several. In the "lower" neighbourhoods in the town where I live, there are writings on every wall and in every entrance.
Secondly, don't forget the other arguments (which I feel are more important) -- once again, it makes no sense if the killer would have stopped to write that message. He couldn't be sure whether the apron would be found or not and if his message would be spotted. What if the police had missed out on Goulston Street or chosen another route? What if the PC didn't connect the piece of cloth with Eddowes' apron? What if he didn't see the message?
The letters were, as I understand, quite small and it is by no means certain that anybody would detect them in the middle of the night, not even if the piece of the apron was found and connected to Eddowes.
As I said, if the killer would have left a message, then he would have made sure it would be discovered, and he would therefore most certainly have done it in direct connection with the body - and probably done soething with larger visual impact than a tiny chalk message on a wall several streets away from the corps.
We can't even be sure that the subject referred to in the writing has anything to do with JtR at all. We are just assuming here that the Ripper would have written it in order to blame the Jews. But what if the murders didn't have anything to do with Jews at all? Then the message and its link to the incident completely is losing its importance, and so does the circumstances around the "coincidence".
We can't be absoultely sure, of course, and I could be wrong, but every bone in my body speaks against the killer being the author of the Goulston writing. There is just no logic to it.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on May 19, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Dan Norder
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 108
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 9:07 pm: | |
Actually, Paul, the chances in your scenario of breaking down in front of a gas station would be 1%, not 10%. But that by itself doesn't prove that there's anything significant to it.
If your car broke down in front of a church, you'd be saying, oh, what are the odds on that? Or in front a funeral home, or in front of a WalMart, or what have you. So there's only a 2% chance you'd end up in front of a bar, 1% next to a fire hydrant, and so forth. You add up all the possibilities of where that car would be and it's 100%. It has to stop somewhere, and wherever it stops, somebody reads something important into it.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 232
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:25 pm: | |
Dan,
Why are you always trying start something with someone? You do it with.....Everybody! There are ways to cordially disagree with someone without being a ****...and I'll let you fill in the blank since you're so damn smart.
Paul |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 244
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:33 pm: | |
Paul & Vince,
I agree with the points Dan and Glenn have made, but let me ask a question anyway: If we knew tomorrow the Ripper had written the graffito, but only that, how much more forward would we be in the quest to name him?
Okay, you could (as someone has recently done on another thread) come up with a post hoc, propter hoc explanation for the graffito, but only after you had already selected your man and were only fitting the incident to advance that notion.
Otherwise, what would you have? We don't even have a consensus on what the actual wording and spelling was and beyond that the message remains murkily ambiguous whatever wording you wish to use.
About all you would know is that JtR had some amount of English literacy and that he wrote "a schoolboy's round hand" (as one observer described the handwriting). Anything else would be sheer speculation . . . and since we don't know that JtR wrote it (or even know that he dropped the apron part at the site) I begin to wonder if it is worth worrying about.
Don. |
Dan Norder
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 110
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:51 pm: | |
Paul,
What about my post has anything to do with starting something with someone? How did I disagree with you in a way that was rude? I simply pointed out an error in your post and gave reasons to show why your conclusion isn't necessarily right, and then you flipped out... Are you having a bad day or what?
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1162
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 5:24 am: | |
Guys,
I still think that the chances of the apron being dropped next to that message is not that likely, but then I don't understand why he would suddenly write a race hate message on the wall after mutilating what he thought was a prostitute (I don't agree she was, but that's another thread).
Don makes a good point though, would it actually help to know if he wrote it or not? I personally don't think so but it's interesting to try to work it out.
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1133
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 10:59 am: | |
Folks,
Read good honest Don, for he speaketh the truth.
The primary evidence at Goulston st is the apron.
The graffito is what ? Maybe a sample of the killers handwriting. Who dat den ?
As for the freshness, that locals would rub out anti-semitic messages. I guess that would be down to how the graffito is percieved. Some could see it as a pointing finger others, myself included, see it as a brag.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 1166
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 11:56 am: | |
Monty,
I don't understand. How can it be seen as a brag?
Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 245
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 12:05 pm: | |
I have a question that while rather trivial has bothered me for some time. Does anyone know how Goulston was pronounced?
Don. |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 9:29 am: | |
Dan Norder wrote: "If your car broke down in front of a church, you'd be saying, oh, what are the odds on that?" True enough, but what if the car broke down, and while I was scatching my head wondering how to fix it the beltway snipers opened fire at me from across the street? You see, I would have not only had to have the singular misfortune to break down in that exact spot but at exactly the wrong time as well. As I have said, possible---barely.
As far as WHY he would write it, Glenn, beats me. Why do any serial killers write anything? The Zodiac, Berkowitz, Heirens, and BTK, to name a few, all communicated with the press (the public) or the police. All of their messages were pretty cryptic in one way or another. I agree, it's not logical, but they do it.
Regards, Vincent |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 3:16 am: | |
Hi all,
I cant make up my mind. I am not sure if the ripper wrote the message or not. Glenn makes some good points against and Sarah and others make a good argument that he did write the message. If you press me I would have to say he did write the messsage. I tend to agree with Mr. Souden about the importance of the message.
I think the more important clue and perhapes one that the ripper did not intend to give is the peice of appron left by the ripper tells us what direction he fled after killing Eddows. I believe it tells us he is heading back into the Eastend.
All the best,CB |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 10:48 am: | |
"If we knew tomorrow the Ripper had written the graffito, but only that, how much more forward would we be in the quest to name him?"
Don, that's a fair question. I guess we probably wouldn't be much closer to naming him. But in my own poor way I study the case because sometimes the fishing is as entertaining as the catching, and every once in a while you get rewarded with a big 'ole tuna.
Regards, Vincent |
|
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