| Author |
Message |
    
Paul Jackson
Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 44
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 9:14 pm: |       |
Hey Tom,
I agree with you 100%. I believe that just to stroll down Goulston street and just look over and see the message and all of a sudden decide that..."Hey, Here is a great place to leave this bloody apron"...is way too big of a coincidence. Why he had chalk in his pocket...
I have no idea, but....maybe he stole it from catherine eddowes...she seemed to have every other kind of item with her. Just a thought.
Paul |
Thomas C. Wescott
Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 9:42 pm: | |
Paul,
Thank you for the support. As for the chalk, I believe he had it with him and had full intention of leaving the message when and where he did. I'd like to say more now, but it'll have to wait.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
|
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 432
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:04 am: | |
Thanks for that Tom.I happen to think the graffiti is very significant in all this too.
For similar reasons.It clearly meant something too.
But what?
I also think it shows a degree of education at a time when loads of people couldnt read or write.
OK the 1870 education act intended that everyone should have the opportunity to learn the three R"s
but in actual fact it was nearer 1900 that this came into effect for most of the population people often had to pay it was a very mixed bag of opportunity and a very hotch potch development.
Many girls didnt benefit fom the act for years after and others received really rudimentary schooling and would have found writing that graffiti beyond their capabilities especially men and women who were from the poorest class in society.So it tells us that whoever wrote it in 1888 was literate to some degree at the very least.So its significant in several ways.
But I guess its back to repeating the same old thing-it clearly means something -but what?
If I think it was Kosminski who wrote it-as I sometimes have wondered about-then I think he may have been saying something like F**K you if you"re going to blame the Jews for everything there"s something to put in your pipe to smoke!
but if I think it may have been Druitt who wrote it then I think it may have meant"the Jews were to blame for all this"-but only if he was so ill at the time that he thought in a distorted way that all the worlds ills were due to something to be found in one of the obscure biblical writings
Natalie |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 858
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 9:11 am: | |
Hi All,
Don't forget, one of the simplest ways of showing contempt for another person, or another group of people, is by spelling their name wrong.
Sometimes this is coldly deliberate, but often it comes out more by accident than design - a Freudian slip. The correct spelling is known well enough, but an incorrect version is nonetheless chosen, or slips out almost unconsciously. How many times have we seen this in action on the boards, when someone screws up the spelling of a simple enough name, when they also happen to be laying into that poster's views.
'Juwes', IMHO, is an example of the phenomenon.
The apron piece could also be underlining the message by way of a Leather Apron taunt. I think Jack had had his fill of the 'Juwes' getting in his way that night and was just in your average serial killer's blame-shifting, responsibility-lies-elsewhere mode.
Love,
Caz
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Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 434
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 11:07 am: | |
Hi Caz,yes what you say could easily be what was meant.I read your post yesterday that inclined towards a local with a chip on his shoulder about the Jews [as well as women/prostitutes whatever ]
and I was agreeing with your line of thought.
Don"t you think though that if he was a local man the east end would have known who it was?The reason Anderson convinced himself it was Kosminski
was partly because he thought his family had protected him from the police whereas if it had been your average ,non Jewish[presumably this was their reasoning]white east end male neighbours would have known him and identified a suspect.I suppose the people of the east end did to a certain extent stick to an idea of it being "leather Apron"-and we are still not sure who they meant!
Best Nats |
Thomas C. Wescott
Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 12:36 pm: | |
Natalie,
Kosminski couldn't have written it as he was illiterate. Whoever composed the graffiti was comfortable enough to attempt doing so in a schoolboy's hand with a piece of chalk on a rough surface in relative dark. Ignore what was written and think about HOW it was written and you'll see that the author was accustomed to the act of writing and thus was probably more intelligent than the text itself would suggest. One cannot disregard the possibility that the graffiti may have been a puzzle, and while it's surface meaning may have held some relevance, the true meaning may only be revealed when the puzzle is solved.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 435
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 2:19 pm: | |
Tom,I think Kosminski could read and write and this I believe is recorded in the registers of Colney Hatch Asylum[or Leavesdon].
With regard to the rest of your post this is exactly my view-we may not yet know what it means but it means something.
Natalie |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 223
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 5:14 pm: | |
Whatho all,
I am sorry but I do not think the graffiti has anything to do with Jack. I would suggest it is a simple matter to cut a couples of Vs into someone's face; each only requires two small strokes.
Whereas writing a cryptic message in small, neat handwriting in the pitch dark is not the easiest of tasks.
Cheers, Mark |
RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 1:03 pm: | |
Hey Ladies and Gentlemen,
I just had a thought. Remember when we were kids and we used to do puzzles where you would be given nonsense words and we were sipposed to rearrange them into real words.Has anybody ever tried this with the Goulston Street Graffiti.
Sounds like a long shot, but it would be interesting to know if anybody ever tried it.
Tim |
Thomas C. Wescott
Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:36 am: | |
Natalie,
Please quote your source that indicates Kosminski could read and write English. I'm not aware of any such information.
Mark,
There were more than two V's on Eddowes' face, and he was operating in the pitch black. Also, standing over a fresh corpse would tend to race one's heart a little faster than a piece of chalk. The fact that he remained in Mitre Square a SECOND longer than necessary indicates, to my mind, the killer had an agenda. I might also suggest that a piece of chalk, even on a rough surface, is a much more agreeable implement than is a knife on flesh.
Tim,
Yes, anagrams. John Wilding, in his preposterous book, suffered us through many anagrams proving that Druitt and J.K. Stephen operated in tandem as the Ripper. Richard Wallace wrote an entire book of not much else than anagrams naming Lewis Carroll as the Ripper. Of all the contemporary suspects, the one most likely to conceal a message in an anagram would be D'Onston.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 439
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 3:59 am: | |
Hi Tom,You will find the reference in JtR the Definitive History by Paul Begg on page 269-register of admissions;Education R&W-R meaning reading and W meaning Writing.
All the Best Natalie. |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 874
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 4:59 am: | |
Caz,
Don't forget, one of the simplest ways of showing contempt for another person, or another group of people, is by spelling their name wrong.
This is very true. I noticed that someone on here (I can't remember who so please forgive me) keeps refering to Patricia Cornwall as Patsy Cornball. I think this is a classic example of what you just said.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 870
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 7:44 am: | |
Tom,
Wouldnt have been pitch black in the square...dark granted but not pitch black.
There is no reference to Liz or Kate or murder within the text of the graffito. Only a reference to 'Juwes', and in a predominantly Jewish area that is no surprise to me.
So whats the link between the murders that night and the graffito ? The apron....Duh Monty.
What else ???
We have a saying a work about coincedences.
When 1 person calls you a horse....look into it closely.
When 2 people call you a horse....look into it even more closely.
When 3 people call you a horse.....buy yourself a saddle.
Till I see more that one coincedence I aint stepping one foot into a saddlery.
Monty
 |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 882
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 9:38 am: | |
Monty,
I still think the apron being underneath the message is a pretty big coincidence which really shouldn't be brushed to one side. I just don't see it as likely that the Ripper saw the message whilst escaping and then dropped the apron there thinking that would be interesting or just happened to drop it there without noticing the message.
I agree with your thing about coincidences but you've got to admit that sometimes there are small coincidences that your "horse" theory would apply to, but then there are whooping great big coincidences which is really all you need and this one has got to be the latter for me.
Anyway, how long after they found Kate's body did they find the graffito? I think he had plenty of time to write that message.
Sarah |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 576
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 9:57 am: | |
HI All
I tend to believe the graffiti was written by JTR. It strikes me as very possible that the discarded piece of apron was being used as a marker pointing the way to the graffiti. Perhaps someone can clarify a point for me? It has never been clear to me exactly where the graffiti was placed. Usually it is described as being written on the doorjamb. However I am unclear as to the height of the message in the doorway. Shannon Christopher stated it was written low down on the door frame. As I recall he mentioned a height of about eighteen inches from the ground. If this is so then the argument that the piece of apron pointed the way to the graffiti is strengthened. As the killer fled the scene of the Eddowes murder he could have come upon a piece of chalk and been inspired to leave the message.
I believe the message was of recent origination since a message in chalk would not likely last too long as someone would have probably brushed up against it, thereby smearing it and preventing it from remaining for any length of time.
Looking at the scenario from a broader perspective, we are left with the question of how significant the message is should it be real. It proves the killer could write in a reasonably educated hand and it implies that the killer was a gentile and was casting false suspicion upon the Jews. Beyond that it brings us no closer to identifying the killer.
Perhaps for the real details of the graffiti we need to look to Edwin Woodhall's book, Jack The Ripper, Or When London Walked in Terror; (1937)
The book is so filled with errors that it is at times comical. Woodhall states the graffiti was left on a piece of paper that the killer left nailed to a stick. So we are left to conclude that JTR was carrying a hammer and nails and either found the stick and paper in the street or he was carting them about as well.
All The Best
Gary |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 441
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
Hi Gary/All,
......I was apprehensive that if the writing were left it would be the means of causing a riot......it was in such a position that it would have been rubbed by the shoulders of persons passing in & out of the building[-so it appears the writing was shoulder height to the average person]----written byT.Arnold Supt.-JtR source book.
I wonder, could these Jewish enclaves-The club in Berner Street,Mitre Square, The tenement building in Goulston St,been his "comfort Zones"
-I wonder what Glenn thinks of this....comfort zone is a term he often uses re the murders...so where was his "comfort zone"actually?...and presumably he felt "comfortable in Mitre Square And Berner St.
Its interesting that Kosminski was literate at this time of frequent illiteracy and that he came to England in 1880.This gave him about 8 years then to learn the English language.He could still have made occasional grammatical errors but should have been able to speak English fluently even if it wasnt always accurate.Apparently he often lapsed into German[or Yiddish presumably] in both Colney Hatch and Leavesden.This would be usual in a situation where he lived at home with the family all speaking in their mother tongue and his mother tongue would have been the language he was most "comfortable" with.
Natalie.
|
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 443
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 11:49 am: | |
I often do think Anderson meant Kosminski and not anyone else.He had him down as a fanatical masturbater and not like Nathan Kaminski a man who had been treated for syphilis.Also David Cohen would have been most unlikely to have been literate since he had only been in England a few months when the murders happened.He probably hadnt even learnt to speak English by then--not that he would have had to to be JtR!
Natalie |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 873
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:01 pm: | |
Sarah, Gary,
Sarah,
Im not saying brush it to one side.
I am saying dont base proof that its Jacks work upon the apron. Apart from location there is no link.
Big, medium or small, as you know, size doesnt matter. Coincidence is just as it states on the tin.
Gary,
Shannon is wrong. An extract from Jon Smyths Dissertation "A Piece of Apron, Some Chalk Graffiti and a Lost Hour".....
The Daily Telegraph, Oct 12, in response to a question of "why did you say it seemed to have been recently written?" Halse responded, "it looked fresh, and if it had been done long before it would have been rubbed out by the people passing..." Graffiti of all kinds was not unusual, in fact it had proliferated since the murder of Annie Chapman, so there is no reason to think of this as anything special.
Would this be rubbed out if it was 18 inches from the ground ? Now shoulder height, different story.
(oooh, please note the end of that quote. Thought Id keep it in, just for reference you understand ). Seeing as Shannon states it was 18 inches from the ground I doubt it would have been noticed, in the dark, in the first place.
In the dark...which brings me onto my next point.
The closest lamp is some 20 odd yards up Goluston st. The graffito was written on the south side of the doorway. Therefore the lamp would ideally placed for illuminating the area the graffito was eventually found. Yeah ?
No. The lamp does not give off anyway near enought light to show up in that doorway.
So our chap was writing in the dark. Not only that but he was writing with his back to the approaching beat PC.
The mechanics of this act point to the probability that Jack didnt write the graffito. The coincidence points to Jack being the author.
Whatever it may be, as you have said, it will not bring us no closer to naming Jack....ring any bells ?
Cheers,
Monty
(Message edited by monty on March 15, 2004) |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 889
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:14 pm: | |
Monty,
I disagree. The bigger the coincidence, the more likely something is, at least that's how I see things.
We will never be able to find evidence that guarantees that the Ripper wrote that message but my gut feeling still tells me he did.
Bring on the saddle.
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 877
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:28 pm: | |
Shergar....I mean Sarah,
Thats fine. I have no problem with that. Tuff sh*te if I have eh ?
Gut feeling ? Were you a CID officer in the 1970's ?
Gut feeling aint good enough for me. I need more than a gut feeling.....on both sides.
Am I going to get it ? Well by applying a little sense and looking at the facts Im getting somewhere. Unfortunately its not far from where I was at the begining but its a start. I assume its exactly the same way Tom started.
The thing is, it just isnt quick enough for me.
Monty
|
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 444
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:29 pm: | |
Monty,
I think Gaslight twenty yareds away would have been enough to see with.My grandmother objected to the lamps in the street outside our house in Birkenhead being replaced by electicity because she used the light from it apparently,to read before going to sleep.The replaced lamp was a much taller neon one and was put further up the road [where it still is] wheras the one she read by was just outside 3to 4 yards away and must have been fairly strong. |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 879
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:41 pm: | |
Nat,
That light was outside your house...not twenty odd...please note the odd...yards away.
Ive got a scale map somewhere with the lamps and the areas they illuminated for both Goulston st and Mitre sq (I want to find out if Harvey could see into the corner and if Jack could use the lamp in Goulston st to aid him in his writing).
Monty
|
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 446
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:54 pm: | |
Monty,well I must admit that you seem to have gone into it very thoroughly so I admit defeat over this-pity -still you will maybe be able to tell us what he "could" see when you get that info
Nats |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 579
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 1:39 pm: | |
Hi Monty
You may be right about Shannon being incorrect for the simple reason that the writing would have been much more likely to have been rubbed out or smeared if it was shoulder height. But this assumes that the writing was not fresh and had time to be rubbed out by a passerby. Jon's quote indicates the police did not believe this to be the case, but rather that the writing was fresh. I see the inference you are drawing. However, I take Jon's quote to not necessarily obviate or preclude the possibility that the writing was lower down on the doorway.
All The Best
Gary |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 447
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 1:51 pm: | |
Gary-did you see the quote I found[see above].T Arnold was one of the police officers and put the writing at shoulder height.
Nats |
