| Author |
Message |
    
Alan Brooks
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 10:14 pm: |       |
It seems likely two men were involved in the Kelly murder, one doing the mutilating plus the other acting as look-out. The dissection took hours so someone might have been required to peek out from behind the curtain (coat) at the window. The two may have swapped places, as the hours spent mutilating Kelly would have certainly proved exhausting for one man |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 149
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 3:24 pm: | |
Whatho Alan,
What would the second man have been looking out for? Mary Jane was killed (if it were her!) in a room up a quiet alley. There might have been people coming and going but would they have taken any notice of Mary Jane? After all, they didn't do much when she was serenading them in the middle of the night with her selection of tear-jerking ballards.
The murderer was doing his work behind a closed, locked door and after a quick call of "Oh murder" Mary Jane would not be making any other sounds.
What would the man at the window have seen? The window looked towards the alley's dead end and not the entrance so he would not have seen anyone coming. And if someone did come what was he going to do? There would be no warning and the room only had one exit.
That is not to say there weren't two murderers in the room. We don't really know. There could well have been five for all I know; one doing the murdering whilst the other four having a rubber of bridge.
Cheers, Mark
ps. I edited this because the inevitable happened. I had a widow looking up the yard instead of a window  .
(Message edited by picapica on December 07, 2003) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1504
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 4:08 pm: | |
Mark, if they were playing bridge they were probably in a contract of One Heart.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 456
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 3:34 am: | |
Alan,
It would have taken hours?.
I must dispute that, I Would calculate within half an hour.
If you take Eddowes mutalations, and times it by ten, that would account for Kellys remains, therefore, I see no reason to go over the thirty minute period.
We can never discount an accomplice theory, but I would say not a active participate, but someone who may have protected him , by remaining silient.
Regards Richard. |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 248
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 5:17 am: | |
Richard,
I agree. I think half an hour would have been adequate.
Mark,
Your remark about her yelling out "Oh Murder" still baffles me. I don't understand why people keep insisting that she said this. If someone was approaching you with a knife you would scream not call out "Oh Murder".
If someone called out "Oh Murder" then it sounds more like someone discovering a murdered body than actually being murdered themselves.
Sarah |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1511
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 6:08 am: | |
Hi Sarah
That's a fair point. Cries of "Murder" were not uncommon, so I imagine that women used to cry this when they were being knocked about by their partners/clients, though not perhaps when they were being murdered. I feel that IF the screams came from Mary, it would have been before she fully realised what was about to happen - say, in response to a punch.
Robert |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 252
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 6:24 am: | |
Robert,
That's very true. That would explain why this cry was so common in the district and why no-one paid much attention to it.
Sarah |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 459
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 2:59 pm: | |
Hi guys,
What about the cry of 'Oh murder' being the result of a nightmare, Dont forget Kelly told her neighbour Lottie' she had a bad dream, that someone was murdering her. If this dream reoccured that would explain the single cry at 4am.
She was petrified to spend the nights alone, ever since her dream, and that scenerio is more then plausible.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1522
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 5:32 pm: | |
Hi Richard
It's possible.
Robert |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 152
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 6:36 pm: | |
Whatho all,
Yes, I agree about the call of "Oh murder"; it sound very stagey to me.
I am sure if Mary Jane saw the murder advancing towards her with a big, sharp knife, the call "Oh murder" would have been the last thing she would say.
What she might have shouted I am afraid the good Mr Ryder would not allow in these boards.
Oh Richard, I like that contract  .
Cheers, Mark |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 7:49 pm: | |
A similar discussion has been proceeding on an adjacent thread, but for the record it was Elizabeth Prater who heard a cry of "oh, murder" [inquest testimony] or "screams of 'murder' two or three times in a female voice." [police statement]. She disregarded the cry because "...I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging-house where the windows look up into Millers (sic) Court." In neither statement did she specifically say it came from MJK's apartment. She'd been awakened by a kitten and just heard the cry from somewhere.
Don. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1529
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 4:10 am: | |
Don, plus Lewis said it seemed to come from the direction of Kelly's room.
Robert |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 264
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 5:55 am: | |
Guys,
I still think it would have been a strange thing to call out if she was about to be murdered. Maybe she was dreaming or someone else around the court cried out "oh Murder" and it wasn't Mary. Think about it for a second, some of her neighbours here a cry of "Oh Murder" coming from nearby, then the next day it is discovered that Mary had been murdered, of course they would think it had come from her room.
Sarah |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 483
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 6:48 am: | |
Maybe Lewis was a lying !
Monty
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1533
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
Monty, I think she was sitting.
Robert |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 485
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 9:06 am: | |
Oh very good...
....thank you Oscar Wilde !
Monty
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1534
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 9:14 am: | |
And she was a visitor - so she wasn't a sitting tenant.
Why would she be lying, Monty?
Robert |
Jason Scott Mullins
Sergeant
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 49
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:48 am: | |
Greetings Programs!!
Just some random and horribly un-organized thoughts and ideas:
Hmm.. two people. It's something I've been thinking about recently... It does tend to make the crimes easier all the way around. Provided a few criteria are met first. Obviously, you'd have to have some form of trust between your partner in crime and yourself. Ensuring somehow that he wouldn't rat you out, or worse.. rip you up. There are many ways of achieving this.. of course, maybe you have some dirt on him that you could use against him, if he were to come forward, etc.
I know, I know.. some people will say "It's not possible.. eventually someone would have to speak or say something!!". Well, while that's possible I wouldn't put much credence in it personally for _this_ case. Why would they speak? People can kill and be very very cruel and never have a need to 'speak out' or ever tell anyone. So while that excuse probably works in movies, I'm not so sure it holds water in real life. I'll have to look up killing teams or alleged killing teams and see what turns up.
It would make it easier to walk away from the crimes since the police were looking for one man, not two. It's not as if we haven't heard of two men being involved (the "pipe smoking man" I think.. bare with me, I haven't looked at eyewitness accounts yet). It would also make it a hell of a lot easier even IF the police stop'd them, finding them covered in blood.. for they are each others alibi:
"Did you see or hear anything"
"Nope"
"Eh.. how about you?"
"Nope, I was walking with him"
"Eh.. why are you both covered in blood"
"Because we just came off that cattle ship up in the harbor"
"Oh... Move along then"
The thought that more than one person was involved is one that I think the police took into consideration, but I haven't found any mention of it other than someone offering a reward for any information, I think in hopes that an accomplice would come forward. I think perhaps they thought more than one was involved in the whole process, maybe as a look out, but not in mutilations themselves.
I wish I knew what lead them to think that perhaps two people were involved.. Anyone know?
I don't know that given what evidence we have left today we can prove that more than one man was involved in any of the killings, let alone all of them.. but I feel it's something worth pursuit... Anyone that's willing to help me in my pursuit is cordially welcome
End Random thoughts and ideas.
crix0r |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 486
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:52 am: | |
Robert,
If Im honest, I see no reason for her to lie.
Also the cry is sorta confirmed by Prater.
Monty
|
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 271
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:00 am: | |
Monty,
I don't doubt that there was a cry but as I said earlier, of course they would presume in the morning that the cry came form Mary Jane's room as she was dead and the cry did come from nearby.
Sarah |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 487
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:13 am: | |
Jason,
Have you read up on Halses encounter on the morning of the Double event ?
Sarah,
Aye, I agree.
Monty
|
Jason Scott Mullins
Sergeant
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:25 am: | |
Monty -
Nope, I have not. Do tell? Is there a dissertation on the subject or is this something I could find in my "Ultimate" at home?
crix0r |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 488
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:42 am: | |
Jason,
What?, am I here to provide you with information or something ??
Just solely here for you amusement??
...why I'll shoot you you F@*Ģing son of a b..
..Yep, you'll find it in ultimate.
Basically, and Im working from memory here, Halse ended up in Mirte sq along with Outram and some other DC I cant remember. They then decided to fan out and search the area (and excellent idea in my opinion). Halse took Middlesex st and Wentworth and came across 2 men whom he stopped and questioned (though there is no record, I assumed he searched them also). Satisfied with their answers and that they were ok he let them on.
Like I said, this is from memory here so do check up on it.
Monty
|
Jason Scott Mullins
Detective Sergeant
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 51
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 12:00 pm: | |
Monty
YEAH, You're just here for my Fschkin' amusement!! My online library!! Well, there's that plus I like your company. Take your pick :P
Ok, I'll search the Ultimate companion when I get home.. I presume there is only one ultimate (by evans and skinner I think, I can't remember off hand)?
I'll do a search of the Casebook CD for "Halse" here at work.. though the search function is broken so I have to do it via the "find in files" portion of the WinNT file finder. Thanks for the tip.
Just for the sake of curiosity.. has there every been a plausible '2 man theory' ? I'd hate to re-research something that has already proven bunk or impossible. I think police at the time thought it possible, or at the very least, probable, else why would they offer a reward to accomplices?
crix0r |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 490
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 12:15 pm: | |
Jason,
Of course the two man theory is plausible.
Just dont go down the road of JK Stephen and Eddie. You'll be blown out of the water.
The police must have considered it as would have the higher ranks. Yeah, maybe it is the hunch behind the pardon.
The thing is that, at some stage, its going to be hard to keep in. Look at the Hillside stranglers or Duffy and whatshisface. Its a hell of a trust and once you have got one you are bound to get the other.
Regarding Halses guys is that
a)They were heading towards Mitre sq and
b) I cannot see Halse letting them go (and recording it) unless he was very certain.
There are other 'mechanical' problems in operating that way but there are obviously some advantages.
Me? I cant see it happening and there is no evidence apart (from Stride).
But what do I know?
PS, just re read your post and failed to spot the question....DOH ! No, there is no plausible 2 man theory that I know of regarding JtR. Im doing my books tonight to see if I can come up with any evidence that supports such an idea.
Later,
(Message edited by monty on December 09, 2003)
(Message edited by monty on December 09, 2003)
(Message edited by monty on December 09, 2003)
Monty
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