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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 617
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 7:39 am: |       |
Hi all
Intretsing points above- another point which has alwys interested me is that Druitt, with soaked clothing and four large stones in each pocket was found floating. This may give some indication as the length of time he was in the water as the only way such a heavy body could be floating would be decomposition and the formation of bodily gases.
It would need a pathologist to estimate how long the processes of decompostion would need to have been active to make a body this heavy buoyant. Also as the river was much busier in the 188os than today, as a main highway for transport and commerce, it is possible that the day his body was found was the day that the gas formed buoyancy brought it to the surface otherwise I would have thought there may have been a good chance it would have been seen earlier.
Chris |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 178
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 12:12 pm: | |
Jeff,
The question, "What happened on Friday?" is key to the case for Druitt. Mostly we have assume this to be the date of his dismissal from the school. But that is supposition. But don't forget that we don't know for sure which Friday he is referring to. We don't know that the letter was written on the Saturday when he apparently committed suicide. In fact, "Friday" would be an unusual way of referring to that day, rather than "yesterday" if the letter had been written on Sat. Dec. 1. It seems to me from this that the letter was more probably written on a Sunday through Thursday, but the date is unknown.
Andy
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 941
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 2:05 pm: | |
Hi all
The note was addressed to William. One way that the meaning of "Friday" would be unambiguous to William would be if the Friday in question was when Monty stayed with him at Bournemouth.
Re the phrase "where he resided" : could it have referred to where William resided, i.e. maybe Monty left some things in his room at William's place, which William then searched (though this is unlikely - surely William would have searched Monty's things at Bournemouth before going up to town?)
I agree the chances are that MJD hadn't been floating on the surface for long. Perhaps a pathologist could do some rough calculation based on average density of a person etc (though the weight of the stones is unknown).
Strange that Monty doesn't seem to have had any keys on him. Also strange, the bit about William having Monty's room searched.
Robert |
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 99
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 2:15 pm: | |
Hi All
Regarding the whereabouts of Montague in 1887, I agree we have not much information.
However Sugden does say that "In 1887 he was recorded [in the Law Lists]as a special pleader for the Western Circuit and Hampshire, Portsmouth and Southampton Assizes"
Also from Skinner & Howells "The Ripper Legacy" we have the following " And on 7 February 1889 a final entry [in the minutes of the Morden Cricket Club Blackheath] records that the Directors had heard with much regret of the death of Mr M.J. Druitt who had zealously and faithfully fullfilled the duties of Hon. Sec. of the company for three and a half years."
From the above I think we have evidence that Montague carried out his normal routine during 1887.
John Savage |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 618
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 2:32 pm: | |
if you go to
http://www.blackheathcc.com/
and click on History and Archives , the Blackheath Club site has some scans of two fixtures lists from 1886 which include Druitt and two team photos, one from 1896 and one from the 1890s (date unspecified). One of the photos includes names and this certainly includes people who would have played with Druitt. One the photos is a bad sepia print but I have enhanced this as below;
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 943
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 3:36 pm: | |
Interesting link, Chris. Is that Mr G. H. Hutchinson batting at number 11 against Hearne?
It's a small world!
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 180
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 3:55 pm: | |
Robert,
Actually, it looks like a G.B. or a G.R. Hutchinson to me. Kind of a shame. 
Andy
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 141
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 10:06 pm: | |
Hi Andy,
I grant you that you may be right regarding the question of which Friday Monty meant. However, I am willing to simplify the matter by concentrating on that Friday nearest in time to the last siting of Monty alive. This would be
November 30.
I think that what bothers me is whether or not some event of note happened that day, which set
him off on his high depression (if we accept that he became suicidal). From some studies I made on other cases, some really peculiar behavior from some killers becomes comprehensible when one carefully reads the newspapers of the time of their murders. I'll give an example using another
"Ripper" suspect, Dr. Thomas Neill Cream.
I wrote an article that was published in The
Criminologist about ten years ago about Cream. One thing I briefly discussed was a point that
Richard Altick suggested in his chapter on Cream in VICTORIAN STUDIES IN SCARLET. Altick pointed out that one of the detectives who helped catch Cream in 1892 was closely working with anti-Fenian detectives in the United States and Canada
(mainly in the middle west around Chicago, where Cream had resided and committed the poisoning that
led to his prison sentence in Joliet). Altick asks if Cream may have been suspected of Fenian
sympathies.
It turned out that when Cream began his poisoning
campaign in Lambeth and Stepney in October 1891, he also blackmailed Frederick Smith, the only son
and heir of W.H.Smith, founder of the book store
chain and leading Tory politician in the House of
Commons. W. H. Smith (best recalled for his book stores and for being the model of Sir Joseph Porter in H.M.S. Pinafore) died in October 1891.
Usually this point was noted by some historians of the case, who mentioned it because it would have explained Cream's interest in targetting Fred Smith as a blackmail pigeon. But they only got part of the story.
W. H. Smith was a very important Tory leader of his time. The head of the Tories in 1888 or 1891
was Lord Salisbury. His Lordship was Prime Minister in this period. But Salisbury, being a
Marquis, was in the House of Lords. For the all
important counter role of head of the Tories in the House of Commons, Salisbury chose W.H.Smith, who was known in both parties for his political
integrity and honesty. So already, Fred Smith's dad would have invited Cream's scorn and dislike, and made Fred a tempting target - especially as a
blackmail threat against Fred might shake public
confidence in Tories (or so Cream might think).
But there is still more.
The obituaries for W.H.Smith were fulsome panogyrics about his integrity, etc. Why so? Because, it turned out, he wasn't the only leading
politician to die in October 1891. That month the
disgraced Irish political leader, Charles Stewart
Parnell, also died, worn out trying to save his
career and his leadership of Home Rule. He died in the arms of his lover (now wife) Kitty O'Shea.
But to the bulk of the British public, he was a
disgraced, shameful adulterer (and some even suspected he was a supporter of terrorists and murderers - although this cloud had been lifted by the Parnell Commission findings a few years earlier).
Now, if Cream, as Altick suggested, was a Fenian,
or Irish nationalist, he probably would have been
upset about how the dead Parnell's name was treated as a rag to clean filth by the British press, while the Tory Smith was seen as such a wonderful public servant and man. This would add an additional reason to go after Fred Smith as a
target of Cream's blackmail threats - it would show the public how hypocritical the Tory leadership was.
This is what I was getting at with Monty. Could something of importance have cropped in the news of the day of Nov. 30, 1888, that would have caused Monty to start losing control of himself?
I think it's possible. Problem is, it may be something that needs some careful digging and scrutiny, because it may be very minor in appearance to all of us.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 619
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 8:13 am: | |
Hi Jeff
I think with a condition like depression leading to suicide it is just as likely that any critical event that led to Druitt's death could have been personal in nature rather than headline news.
In view of his statement "Since Friday last I felt I was going to be like Mother"... the most logical explanation seems to me to be that on that day (possible November 30th) he went to visit his mother. At the time, Anne Druitt was hospitalised in Brighton (she was moved there in September 1888) and she was not transferred to the asylum in Chiswick until 1890. At the time of Monty's supposed crisis and death she was in the care of Dr. Joseph Gasquet who is registered in both the 1881 and 1891 census data as living at 127 Eastern Road, Brighton.
It is possible that MJD visited his mother on the Friday in question - for him to compare his own condition to hers it would make soime sense that he had seen her recently to know what mental state she was in. If this did happen on the 30th November then the railway ticket found on him from December 1st (from Hammersmith to Charing Cross)becomes critical in that he would have made this journey the day after the "Friday last". It would be fascinating to know why he went to Hammersmith. Either he had some acquaintance at Hammersmith whom he felt it important see or, as this location is right on the river, he may even have been spying out potential suicide locations, an act certainly not unknown among potential suicides.
From the 1891 census it looks as though the hospital (described as a Convalescent Home) where Anne Druitt would have been kept was located next door to where Dr Gasquet lived. This is listed as occupying Nos 128-131 Eastern Road, Brighton and at the time of the 1891 census the Superintendent was named Emma Seaman, aged 60. It seems a small scale establishment in that the census lists three staff (apart from the Superintendent), eight visitors and five inmates.
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R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 174
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 2:27 pm: | |
Jeff--Interesting thought. Funny thing though is that that very 'Friday' the news was good for Druitt. If you recall, he was mentioned in the London Times:
DRUITT, APPELLENT--GOSLING, RESPONDENT.--- In this case, which was heard on Tuesday before Lord Coleridge, Mr. Justice Hawkins, and Mr. Justice Manisty, the appellant was successful, and the Revising Barrister's decision reversed. --Times, 30 November, 1888.
Martin Fido established that this was definitely M.J. Druitt. That Friday he had every reason to feel a bit jolly; instead he evidently decided to kill himself.
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 624
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 2:37 pm: | |
Hi RJ
Interesting point but this court success was reported on the Friday but refers back to the previous Tuesday for the case. A lot can happen in three days - especially to one in the frame of mind MJD presumably was
Regards
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 950
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 5:20 pm: | |
I suppose the most directly horrible thing that could have happened to Druitt on visiting his mother, would be if he had also on the same visit consulted her doctor, and been told that he was displaying symptoms of her illness.
Also any articles in the Press about the effects of heredity might have been enough to tip him over.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 143
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 10:01 pm: | |
Hi all,
Chris - I don't stress it has to be headline news.
It is rather hard to think of Monty reading the
newspaper on the morning, seeing a headline like
"Newest Battleship Launched" and going into a tizzy. But in the course of an article he might notice something that sets off an inner tension or
turmoil. Or he might note some small item, that may go counter to what he expected or wanted. Anything can trigger a crisis. For example (not that this is likely) but let's assume he was the
Ripper. He sees an item about some event near
Blackheath, and notices the name of someone who lived near Miller's Court, who he feels may have
suspected him. That might trigger him off, although nobody else might notice it.
R.J. - What was the case of Druitt and Gosling about? Did Martin Fido get all the details about it's background?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 177
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 11:55 pm: | |
Jeff--Hi. My memory is a bit hazy, but the legal case was politically motivated, having something to do with a technical point about election procedures or election boundaries. Martin Fido reported it at some length in an old issue of the Ripperologist. I do recall that Druitt was arguing on behalf of the Conservatives, which might have run counter to the political leanings of his school days. Perhaps middle-age's inevitable decline into compromise depressed him! All the best.
P.S. For sometime, I have felt that the suspicions against Druitt are somehow connected to William's inquires. The common belief (based on the reports of the inquest) is that Druitt was absent from his chambers, and this alarmed William who then carried out an investigation, going to London, Blackheath, etc. Macnaghten, though, seems to be saying that it was the other way around. William was making inquiries, and Druitt, knowing the net was closing in on him, topped himself.
"I have little doubt but his own family believed him to have been the murderer." |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 953
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 9:06 am: | |
Hi RJ
It depends on how careful Macnaghten was with his tenses. Strictly speaking, "believed him to have been" would suggest a belief which they held after Monty's death, whereas "believed him to be" would mean that they they held the belief while Monty was still alive. But I suppose many people would say "believed him to have been" whatever the time of the belief.
Robert |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 178
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 11:33 am: | |
Robert--Hi. You're absolutely correct, but the tense doesn't really concern me much, because I'm trying to imagine how things must have looked to Macnaghten's unknown informant. It's always a bit dangerous to try and make historical sense of grabled accounts but I'm also thinking of G.R. Sims here. For some reason, Sims believed that the "police were looking for [Druitt] alive when he turned up dead." We know with certainty that this is not the case....at least as far as the police are concerned. Macnaghten tells us the information came later. But we do know that someone was making inquiries around London at the height of the Ripper scare--William Druitt. Could this account for the belief? In Novemeber, MJD was acting up. He felt as though he was going mad, and he gets the sack from Blackheath. William must have been in some contact with Druitt at this time because the case of Druitt v. Gosling went through William's firm. When someone discreetly contacted William about MJD (we know this happened--the inquest report claims it was after Dec 11th) the concerned older brother starts making inquiries. These inquiries must have continued throughout Decemember, up to the point body was found floating off Thorneycroft's. William would certainly have asked probing questions about his brother's mental state and behavior. These questions would have become increasingly distraught once the suicide note was found. To the contemporary informant, it might have appeared very much like Macnaghten & Sims reported: an educated, respectable, somewhat mysterious gentleman (a police inspector??) was making discreet inquiries around London shortly before the young man turned up dead, a suicide in the Thames. I'm reading between the lines here, but whoever Macnaghten's informant was, they seem to be making a reference to William's inquiries. All the best, RJP
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 962
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 6:43 pm: | |
Yes, RJ, good suggestion.
I can't help feeling that whatever the reason for MJD's dismissal, it must have been very serious indeed. If it was simply because he'd shown symptoms of insanity, or homosexual feelings for another member of staff, wouldn't Valentine have permitted him to resign rather than dismiss him?
Such a course would have been better not only for MJD but for the reputation of Valentine's school too.
Robert
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 144
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 11:03 pm: | |
Hi RJ,
Well, it is possible that the realization that he was becoming a Tory in his sympathies might have
driven him over the brink, but it's just as possible that (like many solicitors and barristers) he seperated his own political leanings from his work.
I had a little time at the 42nd Street Library today - very little, due to a subway problem that
delayed and rerouted me. I only spent forty minutes at the Library's microfilm room, and went through the indices for late December 1888 and January - March 1889. Actually, it demonstrates the limitations of the indices for the Times of London. They only posted important weddings, and
the marriage of Edward Druitt to the daughter of the former Governor of the Strait Settlements, and
of Tasmania, and Premier of New Zealand ... was not considered important. Probably it is in the issue the day or two after the wedding, but not in the index. I looked up Blackheath and Hammersmith but found nothing under either in either volume. I did find some interesting things in the "Deaths" for 1888. I wonder if anyone else out there has.
First off, the ancestor of a well-known murderer died November 12, 1888 (following Mary Kelly by 2
or 3 days). This was the Earl of Lucan, the Commander of the British Cavalry at Sebastopol, and the man who sent Lord Raglan's garbled orders to Lord Cardigan for the charge of the Light Brigade. He was 90 and a Field Marshal. This
Lord Lucan, like his great grandson, was involved in a homicide case, but not as the murderer. In 1872 his mistress, Madame Riel, was bludgeoned to death by her servant in Park Lane.
A week before Lord Lucan died, one of Argentina's
statesmen, Domingo Sarmiento, who had overthrown
the Rojas tyranny in the 1850s and became President of that Republic, died. And in October
1888 a former President of Haiti (spelled "Hayti") named General Solomon (!) died.
But most interesting was a gentleman named "Elliot Macnaghten" who died on 28 December
1888 (or, at least had his obituary in that issue, on page 7, col. f). Due to the time problem, I never looked up the obituary, but does anyone know if Sir Melville Macnaghten had a brother or cousin or uncle who died in late 1888?
Most curious to find out about that.
Jeff
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Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 4:18 am: | |
As baronets, the Macnaghtens are covered in Burke's Peerage. According to the 1949 edition, Melville Macnaghten's father Elliot, was born 1 April 1807 and died 24 December 1888. He was a younger brother of Edmund Charles Workman Macnaghten, 2nd baronet (1790-1876).
Chris Phillips
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 634
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 10:35 am: | |
I found this home genealogy page:
http://earthhome.tripod.com/druitts.html
called the Druitts of Old London Town which has done a lot of work on all the London based Druitts
Might be of interest
Chris |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 145
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 12:44 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
After posting my comment on Elliot Macnaghten last night, I checked www.google.com, putting in the name of Elliot Macnaghten. I got the following information, which is sparse but curious.
Elliot's father was Francis Workmen Macnaghten - Workman, 1st Baronet (August 2, 1763 - November
22, 1843). He married Letitia Dunken on December
6, 1787. Only Elliot is mentioned as their son.
His birth and death dates are consistant with
what you found.
Elliot married twice. His first wife was Isabella Law (daughter of John Law), born February
4, 1833 and died May 1, 1871. The date of of their marriage was not listed, but they had a son
(only one son is mentioned) namd Henry Alexander
Macnaghten. No mention of Melville! Henry became
the Reverend Henry Alexander Macnaghten (born 1850 and died July 17, 1928). He married twice:
first Louisa [I mispelled the last name], on August 28, 1873, who died December 28, 1921; secondly Evelyn Vere Boyle on February 3, 1925,
she died on November 7, 1937. There does not seem to have been any offspring from either marriage.
Elliot Macnaghten remarried on September 5, 1872.
The second wife was Anne Chester (died May 4, 1903). They do not seem to have had offspring.
Elliot was a director of the East India Company
in 1845/6, and was instrumental in getting a man
named Clarke a military appointment in India (not
that it helped Clarke in the long run - he was
killed in the 1857 mutiny). See http://members.dea.net/fbl/pclarke.html.
Tom Cullen mentioned the East India Company connection of Sir Melville's father in AUTUMN OF TERROR, saying the father reached the Chairmanship of the company. But he did not say
what was the name of the father. Hence my confusion.
Point is, Sir Melville's father died the same month that Monty died.
Next question: who was the Macnaghten family solicitor? William Druitt perhaps? Or were the
Druitts related (by marriage) to the Macnaghten
family. If either is the case, then the first rumors of a possible connection between Monty and
Whitechapel would crop up very close to home for
Sir Melville - especially if he heard it at his dad's funeral.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 146
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 1:07 pm: | |
I need to correct some points.
The name of the first wife of Rev. Henry Macnaghten was Louise Mangles (yes, really).
The site showing that Elliot Macnaghten got the military posting for the doomed Clarke was
http://members.dca.net/fbl/pclarke.html
The sites for the genealogy information on Elliot and Henry is
www.peterwestern.fa.co.uk/maximilia/pafg1510.htm - 8k
www.boyle.family.btinternet.co.uk/18590527.htm - 2k
and the Macnaghten family had some apparent claims to royal heritage. See
www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/gedFx24.html - 46
Jeff |
Severn
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 1:01 pm: | |
Druitts body was found fifty yards from a house in chiswick where JK Stephen and other graduates met regularly.Druitt may have been one of them.He may have been suspected by them.} |
Severn
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 1:33 pm: | |
} }reason the brother gives is that Druitt thinks he is going like mother ieinsane and to end his days in an institution is all thats left. |
Severn
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 3:10 pm: | |
Hi All ..again...Albert Backett chairman of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee surfaced in the Eastern Post and City Chronicle of Sat 21 sept1889.His name was cited in connection with the 1st reference to a drowned man found in the Thames at the end of December 1888 which hed been sworn to silence by the police about.} |
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