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John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 120
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 4:59 am: |       |
Surely Chris Scott must be one of the most productive posters on the entire Casebook site?
I agree with Stephen P Ryder, Chris deserves special mention for all the exciting and often,
previously unseen items he downloads for our
delectation.
These Druitt entries could prove very useful for
Druittists seeking to fit pieces to their particular puzzle.
However, the Arthur Bousefield entry demonstrates Chris not only digs for newspaper items but has been especially adept at turning up handy details from the Census records.And is a lateral thinker too.
It would be interesting to learn if any Bousefields survive today in Medicine, and/or the Blackheath area. And whether they have any family stories handed down about..... |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 798
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 7:26 am: | |
Hi John
Just to echo your words. A big thank-you, Chris!
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 539
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 8:00 am: | |
Hi John and Robert
Many thanks for the comments which are much appreciated. Lateral thinking certainly helps but also the fact that interest also lies in the small details and the less than obvious links. Of course we all dream of some stunning new piece of ground breaking evidence - like the Littlechild letter - or some fascinating and new important light - like the new photos of Ostrog and Chapman among others. My rule of thumb for posting is that there is such a range of interest and opinion on these boards - and long may it continue - that if soemthing I have found grabs my interest, the chances are there will be comeone on the boards who would be interested to see it as well. Also, as I have said before, because I don't carry a candle for any particular suspect or theory, anythign relating to the case, even obliquely, can grab my interest.
Your thoughts got me day dreaming about what would be my researcher's "wish list" - not for any kudos but just to see the information come to light. The things I would most like to crack would be, in no particular order would include:
1) An authenticated photo of Fred Abberline
2) Establish a date of death for Donston
3) Establish date of death for Ostrog
4) Verify any of the details in Barnett's account of Kelly's early life
5) Find an authenticated photo of Kelly
There are amany more, believe me, but hey, I can dream:-)
Thanks again for the comments guy and I hope there will be more to come!
Regards
Chris
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Neale Carter
Sergeant
Username: Ncarter
Post Number: 27
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 10:53 pm: | |
Chris,
I echo John's words in appreciation of your insightful research.
Re. your wishlist, it at least gives people some lines of research and an idea what is of value. Who knows if someone may wander onto the boards one day who has found a dusty shoebox of JtR papers in their attic. Maybe a wishlist thread could be useful.
Thanks again Chris.
Neale |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 605
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 2:57 pm: | |
Hi
Found these notes about James Druitt:
James Druitt was the seventeenth Mayor of Bournemouth, and was one of the fifteen children of the twice-married James Druitt senior, a Wimborne solicitor who was five times Mayor of Christchurch.
Mayor Druitt's grave
James Druitt junior (1845-1929) moved to Bournemouth to serve as the Clerk to the Bournemouth Commissioners. Among his various duties, he oversaw the transfer of land from the Cooper Dean estate to the Commissioners which was then laid out as the Wimborne Road cemetery, in which he rests. He later retired and became a councillor and was the last person to be installed as Mayor in the original glass Winter Gardens. He was a cousin of Montague Druitt (1858-1888) who is buried at Wimborne and became infamous as a suspect in the Jack-the-Ripper case. Buried with Druitt are his wife Augusta Sophia (died 1926), daughter Constance Mildred Druitt (died 1958), son James, Victor Druitt (died 1960 in Horsham), younger son, Geoffrey Tremenheer Druitt (1892-1968) and daughter Catherine Sybil (died 1944).
From the Druitt grave, return along the same row to the east avenue and continue twenty-six rows to the east, coming to a slender cross on the right hand side of the path, marking Mary Hannah Champion Thorp's grave.
These are from the site about Wimborne Cemetery and include a pic of the Druitt grave. You can find this at:
http://www.bournemouth.gov.uk/living/Environment/Conservation_Design/Wimborne_Road_Cemetery.asp
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John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 6:11 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Thanks for posting the above link, apart from the information of the Druitt family I also learnt of a Bournemouth connection for the late comedian Tony Hancock and also the Daleks! Also at this site was an informative piece on the unveiling of a blue plaque at the former home of Insperctor Abberline.
Well worth the visit, thank you.
Regards,
John Savage |
Robert Habenicht
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 11:59 pm: | |
Having just finished watching the discovery channel special on the real Sherlock Holmes the apparently looked at the Lusk letter for latent writing impressions. It looked to my like it had a "Sincerely yours Montigue Druitt". Was this just for the show? |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 160
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 6:48 pm: | |
Hi, Robert
I saw the same show last night. I never knew the police had approached Dr. Joseph Bell for help in the case. From what I gathered, whatever Bell came up with is unknown, since his report doesn't seem to have survived. The producers seem to have based their reenactment on Donald Rumbelow's opinion that Bell plumped for Druitt.
Does anybody know more about this? Was the program accurate--Scotland Yard provided Bell with the three suspects Druitt, Kosminski, and Ostrog, along with the Lusk letter? If I remember right, this was supposed to have happened in 1888.
Dave
PS The reason I say 1888 is because there was speculation (I think from Rumbelow) that Druitt might have committed suicide because of Bell's report. So Druitt was possibly a suspect before he died? That's strange to me, because MacNaghten seems to base his suspicions about these three on events which happened after the murders (death, confinements). |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 916
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 8:05 am: | |
Hi Robert, Dave
According to Richard Lancelyn Green, "The Uncollected Sherlock Holmes", Bell and a friend "made independent investigations and put their conclusions into envelopes which they exchanged; as one name appeared in both, this was communicated to the police." And Green quotes the "Tit-bits" obituary article about Bell as saying "It was about this time that the series of murders came to an end." ('The Real Sherlock Holmes', 'Tit-bits', 21 October 1911, LXI, p.127).
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 161
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 9:28 am: | |
Thanks, Robert
1911? Maybe the whole story is just some jumbled memory, then. |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 4:46 pm: | |
So Druitt was possibly a suspect before he died? That's strange to me, because MacNaghten seems to base his suspicions about these three on events which happened after the murders (death, confinements).
At any rate G. R. Sims ('Dagonet') seems to have believed Druitt was already under suspicion when he killed himself:
January 22, 1899. [Sunday Referee]
If he hadn't committed suicide he would have been arrested.
February 16, 1902. [Referee]
At the time his dead body was found in the Thames, his friends, who were terrified at his disappearance from their midst, were endeavouring to have him found and placed under restraint again.
July 13, 1902. [Referee]
the police were in search of him alive when they found him dead.
Sept.22, 1907. [Lloyds Weekly News]
After the maniacal murder in Miller's-court the doctor disappeared from the place in which he had been living, and his disappearance caused inquiries to be made concerning him by his friends who had, there is reason to believe, their own suspicions about him, and these inquiries were made through the proper authorities.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 922
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 4:54 pm: | |
Hi Chris
"Placed under restraint again" sounds interesting.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 6:21 pm: | |
Yes - Sims also believed that he had been in custody previously:
February 16, 1902. [Referee]
The homicidal maniac who
Shocked the World as Jack the Ripper
had been once - I am not sure that it was not twice - in a lunatic asylum.
1906.
For a whole year at least he was a free man, exercising all the privileges of freedom.
Sept.22, 1907. [Lloyds Weekly News]
The doctor had been an inmate of a lunatic asylum for some time, and had been liberated and regained his complete freedom.
1917. Book: "My Life"
He was undoubtedly a doctor who had been in a lunatic asylum and had developed homicidal mania of a special kind.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 925
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 6:48 pm: | |
Thanks Chris. Sorry, I'm a bit rusty on Druitt. Do we know if he was at large in '87? Sims's phrase "for a whole year at least" seems to date his release fairly close to '88).
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 139
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 11:00 pm: | |
Hi all,
I first became aware of the possible connection of Dr. Joseph Bell with the Whitechapel Case in
the 1960s. I read a book of essays and reprinted pieces entitled THE SUNDAY GENTLEMAN by Irving
Wallace. Wallace wrote an essay on Dr. Bell, as
the model of Sherlock Holmes. He went on to discuss Bell's actual involvement in several real
murder investigations. The three most notable ones were the Chantrelle poisoning case in Scotland in 1878, the Whitechapel case, and the
Ardlamont mystery of 1893. It was an interesting
essay, but told very little to the reader - and stirred up some controversy.
It seems the Dr. Bell essay originated in another
collection of essays by Wallace - THE FABULOUS
ORIGINALS. In it, Wallace wrote about who were the real models for various fictional figures, such as Alexander Selkirk for Robinson Crusoe, and
Mary Cecilia Rogers (the murdered "Segar girl") for Poe's Marie Roget. Wallace's essay on Bell
brought out a small war of words with Adrian Conan
Doyle, Sir Arthur's son. Adrian Conan Doyle insisted that the real Conan Doyle was his father, not Dr. Bell, and pointed to the author's
involvement with such cases as George Edalji's and Oscar Slater's. But Wallace stuck to whatever scraps of evidence he had. [In reality,
Sir Arthur was frequently combining features and
incidents from a variety of sources in his fiction, and usually with good results - some of
Bell and himself is in Holmes, as well as pieces of C. Auguste Dupin and other fictional detectives who preceeded Holmes.]
The business about Bell and the Ripper was (to be
polite) vague, if interesting. He and his friend,
Professor Harvey Littlejohn (frequently a government forensic witness in Scottish criminal cases, like that of Eugene Chantrelle and of A.J.
Monson in the Ardlamont case)were asked to look
into the mystery of the Ripper after Mary Kelly's
murder. They spent a week reviewing the clues, and then each wrote down the name of the suspect they felt was responsible. They handed each other
the paper, and (according to Wallace) the name was
the same on both papers. Wallace does not say that they were right, but he does say that after that night there were no further Ripper murders.
But we don't learn the name on the two pieces of
paper. Of course, in all Jack the Ripper revelation stories (until the last fifty years) either a pseudonym ("Dr. Stanley") or a hanged
convicted murderer/ress (Bury, Deeming, Cream,
Chapman, Mrs. Pearcey), or a non-named individual
(R.J.Lee's doctor on Harley Street, or the person named by Bell and Littlejohn)is called the Ripper,
while the speaker/writer looks wise. Since we
are not told whom Littlejohn and Bell pinpointed it may be Druitt, or it can be Gull, Stephen, Eddy, Tumblety, D'Onston Stephenson, Pedachencko,....
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 111
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 3:54 am: | |
I don't think much information has been published about Druitt's movements in 1887.
The best bet for documenting this would probably be his cricketing record. According to my notes, Irving Rosenwater, in his "Cricketer" article of 1973, in the main discussion of Druitt's cricketing career, does seem to leave 1887 blank, after recounting that he took 41 wickets in 1885 and 50 in 1886, and then going on to discuss 1888 in detail. But earlier on, he does mention him taking part in a match against Lansdown in 1887, and also says that he paid his MCC sub in each year from 1884 to 1888.
Chris Phillips
|
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 927
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 4:07 am: | |
Thanks for that, Chris. I suppose it would be better for the Druitt theory if MJD's incarceration had occurred a few years previous to this - otherwise the suicide note becomes even more of a problem (if it's taken to refer to insanity) - a man who had recently been released from an asylum would have had fears for his mental health before "Friday". But then we have the problem of Sims's "whole year at least".
Robert
|
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 131
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 6:37 am: | |
Hello Chrises, Roberts & Dave, Neale & John,
All very interesting food for thought.
As regards Montague Druitt's "missing year":1887.
I have often wished I could get a peep at the Blackheath Tennis,Hockey, Football & Cricket Club
Minute Books & other records, just to get a clearer handle on exactly what, when & how Montague managed his role as Club Secretary (and earlier, as just member).
I did write to the club years ago, (with the hope of getting a photocopy of Montague's handwriting from the Minutes Book), but their reply was vague and unhelpful.
Also, Irving Rosenwater seemed to think Montague's cricketing career could be followed closely through the details published in BELLS LIFE.
Of course, corelation of these cricket records and the Blackheath Minute Books, etc might give us some clues as to who Montague's cricketting 'pals' were.
I've often wondered what sport Montague Druitt
followed or played in the (cricket) off-season. |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 112
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 8:49 am: | |
One other point about Sims's statements. I've sometimes wondered whether some aspects of his description of the "drowned doctor" suspect - and of Macnaghten's statements before him - could have come from confusion with John Sanders, the "insane medical student".
This could cover his having been in an asylum, and maybe his having lived with his family in the suburbs (although Sanders seems to have been incarcerated at the time of the murders, his mother did live in the London suburbs, where the police enquired for him).
Chris Phillips
|
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 932
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 1:37 pm: | |
Hi Chris, everyone
Well, both Sanders and Druitt were said to have "gone abroad", so with coincidences like that I suppose it's quite possible the two got mixed up.
Re Druitt, I think it's a bit odd that someone from a medical family should take his life by drowning, when presumably he could have got his hands on a less unpleasant way to end his life. I suppose though that if he felt desperate, he might have done anything.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 174
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 1:49 pm: | |
Re Druitt, I think it's a bit odd that someone from a medical family should take his life by drowning, when presumably he could have got his hands on a less unpleasant way to end his life. I suppose though that if he felt desperate, he might have done anything.
Is there any record of Druitt's swimming ability? He obviously was a formidable athlete and one might assume a good swimmer. On the other hand, not all athletes are good swimmers and swimming was not nearly the basic skill during Victorian times that it is now. It just seems "fishy" (sorry) that a good swmimmer would choose to drown himself by merely putting a few stones in his pockets.
Andy
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 936
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 6:07 pm: | |
Hi Andy
It is a bit fishy, isn't it. I suppose he might have got himself drunk first, to increase his chances of dying and lessen the horror of it, but I have my doubts.
I don't know whether he could swim. Mercifully I have never found myself drowning, but I can only imagine that if a reasonably proficient swimmer found himself weighed down underwater by stones in his coat pockets, his survival instinct would take over and he'd get himself free of the coat and float to the surface. So maybe he couldn't swim?
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 162
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 7:25 pm: | |
Hi, Andy and Robert
Virginia Woolf was also a strong swimmer and drowned herself with rocks in her pockets. I think a few stones might be heavier than is sometimes thought. Plus, sodden coats are also very cumbersome. Why people don't remove the coats when the survival instinct kicks in, I don't know--but they don't. Maybe it's a difficult thing to do while you're panicking.
Cheers,
Dave
PS Jeff, thanks for the Bell information! |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 937
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 7:55 pm: | |
Interesting, Dave. Thanks for that.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 140
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 10:29 pm: | |
Hi all,
I have been considering a point - which probably has occurred to others. The date of the crisis is Friday, November 30, 1888. Montague said as
much in the letter. What on earth happened to
Monty on that date that reversed his entire life?
He wrote a letter that the coroner read at the
inquest. We do not have the letter, but the item on the inquest in the Acton, Chiswick, and Turnham Green Gazette (of 5 January 1889)says,
"The Coroner read the letter, which was to this
effect: - 'Since Friday I felt I was going to be
like mother, and the best thing for me was to die.'....His mother became insane in July last."
The letter may have hinted at some type of set of
delusions that Monty claimed he had - or it may
have been a statement of some similarity to his
mother, that has nothing to do with insanity but was devastating to him. So I would start looking
carefully at news reports from the areas that
Monty frequented on November 30, 1888, to see if there was anything else going on that might have
related to Monty or to his memories of his mother.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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