| Author |
Message |
    
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 489
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 6:41 pm: |       |
Re. the Leman Street address:
In the 1891 census the relelvant part of Leman Street is listed as follows:
70-72 Leman Street: the Garrick Tavern and Music Hall
74-78 Leman Street:Police Station
80 Leman Street: Dwelling, head Ernest Harris (Cigar Merchant)
82 Leman Street: Dwelling, head Nathaniel Brand (Living on own means)
84 Leman Street: Jewish Shelter: Head - Samuel Smith (Superintendent of Poor Jews Shelter)
8 staff and 26 boarders listed
86 Leman Street: no entry
88 Leman Street: Dwelling, head Thomas Coatsworth (Chemist and druggist)
90 Leman Street: German Young Mens' Christian Association
Hope this is of use
Chris |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 490
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 6:54 pm: | |
Hi John F
Glad the post was of use.
Re. the death of Nathan Kaminsky, I have not found a death entry for him in UK records. However it is possible that at some stage he returned home and was buried outside the UK. I have consulted the Warsaw Cemetery records and there is an entry for a NATAN KAMINSKI being buried at Warsaw but the information I have atthe moment is not dated. I will follow this up and try to get a date of birth and death to see if this may be a possibility
Regards
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 750
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 6:55 pm: | |
Chris, many thanks for that.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 491
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 7:04 pm: | |
Just got hold of a pic of the Jewish Cemetery in Warsaw where Natan Kaminski is buried - any more info will post as soon as available.
Chris
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Martin Fido
Inspector
Username: Fido
Post Number: 153
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 8:10 am: | |
Brilliant work, Chris! Paul Begg will be especially delighted that some one is looking for NK outside the England and Wales registers - something he's always recommended.
And in re the Leman Street addresses, my own search of the Leman Street addesses did uncover the institution at 86 - if i remember rightly the former Blue Riband and Shoeblacks Home had become a residential industrial school - (same idea, I guess: Barnado-style rescuing waifs and strays) - and it had a caretaker called Cohen! Though something about his age - I can't remember what now - made me attach little mportance to this. (I beieve I may have reported it on the old boards, and mor detail may appear on the CD).
All the best,
Martin F
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 497
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 8:41 am: | |
Hi Martin
many thanks for the comments. I have indeed found the institution at 86 Leman street in the 1901 data. At that stage it was in the charge of one William Tourell who is listed as "Manager of Institution". I will double check the 1891 listing to see if I can find any trace
Regards
Chris |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 498
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 8:53 am: | |
Hi Martin
Just to confirm I double checked the 1891 listing - it goes straight from 84 to 88 Leman Street and the page sequence is intact so there are no sheets missing
regards
Chris |
John R. Fogarty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 51
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 12:26 pm: | |
Chris --
GREAT work! A successful search for our Nathan Kaminsky in Poland would prove he was not one and the same as Cohen or Kosminski.
If it is indeed our boy buried in that cemetery, it's possible he was spirited out of England by relatives concerned he was involved in the Whitechapel Murders. Nathan would have been about 23 in 1888.
Congrats!
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy) |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 755
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 12:56 pm: | |
Hi John
That's a bit of a push though, isn't it? I thought Kaminsky had no known next of kin.
On the other hand, even if it were discovered that Cohen entered the refuge on, say, Dec 1st, I don't see why he shouldn't have stayed there some months/years previously, thus being available for the murders - there must have been ways of working the system.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 502
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 12:58 pm: | |
This is a list of those of the name of Kaminski buried in the Jewish Cemetery at Warsaw. Where dates are currently available they are listed, the first being Date Born and the second Date Died. NATAN has as yet neither date but I am chasing these details from the compiler of this list
KAMIŃSKI Hersz Ber 01-Mar-1914
KAMIŃSKI Jankiel 01-Nov-1862 01-Mar-1924
KAMIŃSKI Adam 02-Jul-1904 01-Jul-1981
KAMIŃSKI Fabian 01-Jun-1908 Jun-1987
KAMIŃSKI Jakób 01-Nov-1846 01-Nov-1927
KAMIŃSKI Noech 01-Nov-1854 01-Nov-1932
KAMIŃSKI Ignacy 01-Nov-1876 01-Nov-1932
KAMIŃSKI Noech 01-Nov-1904 01-Nov-1932
KAMIŃSKI Henryk 01-Nov-1874 01-Nov-1934
KAMIŃSKI Józef 02-Dec-1903 02-Oct-1986
KAMIŃSKI Natan
KAMIŃSKI Jakób Zeub
KAMIŃSKI Joel
KAMIŃSKI Jankiel
KAMIŃSKI Hersz Ber
KAMIŃSKI Abraham
KANIENIECKI Stanisław 01-Nov-1931
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John R. Fogarty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 52
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 1:18 pm: | |
Hi, RJ:
I think you're right -- the operative word being "known." It's possible he did have some relations in London we don't know of today. God, I wish I could spirit myself into Old Blighty for a few months. I'd like a go at the various records repositories.....
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy) |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 756
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 1:44 pm: | |
Hi John
This case gets even more complex. After Cohen/Kaminsky/Kosminski, I'm now left unsure whether I'm Robert or RJ.
Robert (a.k.a.RJ) |
John R. Fogarty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 53
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 5:18 pm: | |
Robert it is!
But, of course, if we DO find our Nathan (or Natan) Kaminsky buried in Warsaw (or any other grave except the one marked Aaron Davis Cohen, or David Cohen), then we must give up on him (Kaminsky, that is). Because he therefore could not have been the man named "Cohen" who was actually locked away in Colney Hatch and who died in Oct., 1889. Which means we've really got an uphill battle linking Aaron Kosminski with Cohen.
This connection, via bureaucratic slipsmanship, is only possible if one buys the notion (as described above by Martin) that the cops were at cross purposes as regards the City of London Police and the Met shadowing each other's suspects, then confusing the two K-something-sky last names. If Nathan and David are indeed two separate individuals, then how to account for Anderson, Swanson or Mcnaghten confusing Kosminski for Cohen?
By the by, do we have any idea where David Cohen is buried? On the grounds at Colney or elsewhere?
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy) |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 503
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 5:52 pm: | |
Hi
I have found and thought people might like sight of the index record of the death of Aaron Kosminski. This is from the Jan-Mar quarter of 1919. Note his name is spelt here with a "z" - the death is registered in Watford as that was the location of the Leavesden asylum
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 759
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 6:20 pm: | |
Hi John
Sorry I don't know where Cohen is buried. Cue Chris.
I agree with you John, ideally Kaminsky would be Cohen. But I don't see why it's such a terrible problem if he wasn't. Surely the really important things are :
1) We have a "hair-raisingly" violent lunatic incarcerated at the precise time needed to explain the end of the murders (though whether Jack was someone who could never have stopped or suspended his activities, and whether post-Kelly murder victims were Ripper victims, are separate issues). Cohen was also a "Polish" Jew.
2)We have the remarks of the senior police officers.
Cohen had either recently Anglicised his name, or it may have been a "John Doe" name, or it may have been (as I think Martin suggested somewhere) that Anderson gave him a code name. His original name may have been K - Something - ski. It may even have been Kosminski (another Kosminski).
Of course, Cohen doesn't tie in with what Swanson said, but we've got that problem whether Kaminsky was Cohen or whether he wasn't.
The police forces were dealing with two men of the same age and race, both of whom ended up in asylums. So they got the two confused.
I'm still undecided about the Polish Jew theory, but I can't see how there's some disaster waiting to happen to it.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 504
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 6:31 pm: | |
If Aaron Davis Cohen had anglicized what was his real name it would almost certainly have begun with a K. To give some idea of the complexity of this I'm listing below some of the Polish variants of the name COHEN I have found in researches. IF this was an English form of his real name, the nearest we can get to its original form would be something like ARON DAWID KOCHEN
Polish Versions of name COHEN
KAHAN
KOCHAN
KOHEN
KAGAN
KOCHN
KOGAN
KOGEN
KAGANE
KAGANA
KOCHANE
KACHANE
KOCHEN
KACHAN
KOHON
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 505
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 6:45 pm: | |
Re. where David Cohen is buried I would guess (and it is only a guess!) that an institution the size of Colney Hatch would not have interred all its deceased inmates in its own ground, but would probably have used the nearest municipal cemetery. i.e. the one in Barnet.
The main cemetery in Barnet was originally called the Great Northern London Cemetery (GNLC) but its name was later changed to Southgate Cemetery.
A special rail service ran from Kings Cross to the GNLC which had its own station and chapel.
The cemetery was consecrated in 1861 and the human remains were moved in 1969.
As far as I can ascertain the burial records of the GNLC are still in existence.
IF the deceased of Colney Hatch were not buried within its precinsts (which seems unlikely on ground of space in the days before cremation) then the largest local municipal cemetery (GNLC) would seem the best logical bet for Cohen's place of burial.
Hope this helps
Chris
|
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 506
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 6:54 pm: | |
See map below for location of Southgate Cemetery (top right where it says Cemy) in relation to Friern Barnet where the hospital was
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 760
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 7:06 pm: | |
Hi Chris
Thanks for that information.
I suppose "Anglicised" was the wrong word. I meant maybe he just changed his name to something more English-sounding and simpler to say, like "Klosowski" turned into "Chapman".
Chris, do you know whether Jewish patients like Cohen and Kosminski would have had the services of visiting Yiddish-speaking rabbis for their religious needs?
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 507
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 6:53 am: | |
From further reading the cemetery top right in the map above which I indicated is New Southgate Cemetery on Waterfall Road. the Victorian cemetery was noted for being wheel shaped in layout and so must be the Old Southgate Cemetery on Brunswick Road, clearly visible on map centre left and marked Crem Cemy
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 508
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 7:01 am: | |
Re: whether Colney Hatch would have buried any inmates in its own grounds, I have read recent accounts in the Barnet Times (from 1998 onwards) of the redevelopment of the site of Friern Hospital (as Colney Hatch became). The main hospital block was turned into apartments and the grounds divided into plots which became (among other things) a retail development and a public park. There was local objection to a number of issues (access to the park, felling of trees etc) but I found no mention at all of the finding of or relocation fo human remains which is always taken very seriously in any new development.
The other possible bar to Cohen being buried buried at Southgate was the fact that he was Jewish. However, the Jewush News (issue 9003) states that there was definitely a Jewish section in the Old Southgate cemetery.
I must stress again that all the above with relation to Cohen is only supposition and until the burial records for Southgate (which are still extant) are consulted it must remain supposition. If anyone wants to follow up the burial records, good starting points would be Barnet Museum or the private company which now owns and maintain the cemetery (it is imaginatively called Cemetery Management!)
Hope this helps
Chris
|
John R. Fogarty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 55
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 10:24 am: | |
Chris:
Again, great work, me lad. I'll do everything I can on this end to research the Barnet Museum and Old Southgate Cemetery, or any other burial place for our David Cohen, or Aaron Davis Cohen, et al.
Robert:
Yes, I suppose it's still possible that the police could have confused Aaron Kosminski with David Cohen, but I'd feel more secure about this K-something-ski Polish Jew theory if it were Kaminsky/Cohen. It would seem more viable to me if the confused names at least looked or sounded alike to 19th century English police eyes and ears (Kosminski/Kaminsky). Mayhaps this is one reason Abberline was sold on Klosowski (Chapman) for so long....?
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy) |
John R. Fogarty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 11:48 am: | |
All:
This is as far as I could go online, viz., a search of Colney Hatch records from the London Metropolitan Archives. Some of the Public Records Office (PRO) databases are searchable online, but not, alas, ol' Colney Hatch (now Friern Hospital).
//http://hospitalrecords.pro.gov.uk/scripts/records.asp
Still, as can been seen at the above site, the patient archives are held at AR: CAT: H12/CH AR: for patients admitted between 1851-1985. See also the London County Council Asylums Committee 1889 - 1914.
Still searching.....searching....searching
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy) |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 511
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 12:08 pm: | |
Here are reference for two more Colney hatch sources for any budding researchers:-)
Photos of male patients 1893 to 1899 : HB/CH/B/19/01.I
CLosed until 2011(?)
H12/CH/B21/04 Med Journal (Acc/1038) 1 Vol 1883 Oct 1889 Apr.
Admissions register males 1851-1906 H12/CH/B/2/1-2
Death Register Males 1868 - 1909
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 512
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 12:13 pm: | |
It looks as though the Colney hatch records are held by the City of London Corporation in the LMA (London Metropolitan Archive)
If you go to their site at
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/leisure_heritage/libraries_archives_museums_galleries/lma/records_held.htm
it says the following:
"Health authorities and hospitals (from 1220) - including the records of over 100 hospitals and institutions, such as St. Thomas' Hospital and the Nightingale Training School, Guy's Hospital, Hanwell and Colney Hatch asylums, Moorfields Eye Hospital and Queen Charlotte's Maternity Hospital."
Also, interestingly, in view of the discussion above of the Jews Shelter, the LMA also holds the following:
"Jewish organisations (from 1591) - LMA is a major repository for records of Anglo-Jewish organisations such as the Chief Rabbi's Office, the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the Federation of Synagogues and the Jews' Temporary Shelter"
Sounds definitely worth a visit!! |
