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John R. Fogarty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Goryboy
Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 2:38 pm: | 
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I'm sure Martin Fido has searched these records exhaustively in person. I can't seem to dredge anything up via the Net, so will have to wait till I can be there in poison also...
Still searching for Old Southgate records.......
Cheers,
John e-Rotten
(a.k.a., Goryboy)
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 761
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 3:01 pm: |
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Hi Chris, John
I'll have a go the next time I'm near there, but I'm unlikely to find anything that Martin and others haven't already found.
In fact, I'll be grateful if I can find the building!
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 514
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 4:41 pm: |
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Robert
When you are about to visit, the number of the office that has access to the burial records is 0208 361 1713
They should be able to help with directions
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 763
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 5:21 pm: |
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Much obliged Chris.
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 291
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 5:22 pm: |
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Hello All
What an amazing thread. I wish I could add something of signifigance. All of my branch of the Weatherheads were born in Watford.
Best
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 292
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 5:28 pm: |
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P.S.
I have spent the whole day trying to find the whereabouts of my boy William Grant Grainger in 1888. |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 516
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 6:23 pm: |
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Gary
With regard to "your boy" W.G.G., 1888 was during the period he was in and out of Cork Workhouse.
Pic and map below:
The records from the Cork Workhouse are now in the Cork Archives Institure. The details of the person to contact are:
Brian McGee,
Archivist,
Cork Archives Institute,
Christ Church,
South Main Street,
Cork.
Tel. 00 353 21 4277809
Fax. 00 353 21 4274668
e-mail: cai@indigo.ie
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 294
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 6:43 pm: |
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Thanks Chris.
I'm prepared to have my hopes torn apart by the records, but I am anxious to get a look at the dates.
Someone is using material from the Casebook without mentioning it on another site, I guess this is nothing new.
All The Best
Gary |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 556
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 7:43 am: |
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Hi
I have posted elsewhere articles reporting that the Ripper was incarcerated not in Colney Hatch but in Dartmoor asylum in Devon. I have today found the first of such comments that attributes this information to the police authorities. It is a short comment from the Daily Nevada State Journal dated 9 March 1894 and so is also one of the earliest sources I have found for this story.
Dartmoor is best known as a prison (orginally build to house Napoleonic prisoners) but was also the site in Victorian times of the county asylum. It is best known for its bleak and forbidding location on Dartmoor.
Hope its of interest
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 823
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 8:18 am: |
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Great work, Chris. Interesting that they say "found".
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 911
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 12:20 pm: |
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Hi all
On 14 september last on this thread I posted:
Re. the death of Nathan Kaminsky, I have not found a death entry for him in UK records. However it is possible that at some stage he returned home and was buried outside the UK. I have consulted the Warsaw Cemetery records and there is an entry for a NATAN KAMINSKI being buried at Warsaw but the information I have atthe moment is not dated. I will follow this up and try to get a date of birth and death to see if this may be a possibility
Info has been slow in coming! I do not yet have birth and death dates but do have some bare biographical details. I can now say that Natan Kaminski, while in Poland, lived in the town of Irena in the Warsaw province. To be precise he lived on Warshavsky Street and was a baker at some time between 1914 and and 1933.
This information comes from a Polish newspaper - The Demblin Observer - in a long retrospective article published on December 27, 1933, reviewing the Jewish way of life in from 1914 to the early 1930's.
The passage in question reads as follows:
In Irena there were 4 Jewish bakeries which serviced the Jewish population with a variety of different kinds of breads, challahs, bagels, pretzels and sweets. The bakery of Natan Kaminsky, on Warshavsky street baked almost exclusively for the Poles, although the bakery of Kaminsky's son, on Okulna street, baked for everybody. Bread was also made at Shtamler's bakery on Okulna and Krinchaltz' on Rynek and also at Feldfeders.
Of course I am not saying that this Natan Kaminski/Kaminsky is the Nathan Kaminsky connected with the Ripper case. At this stage there is simply no grounds for asserting that. However, I am reasonably certain after extensive searches for individuals of this name that the baker mentioned above is the same as the man buried in the Warsaw Jewish cemetery. I will still be endeavouring to see if this individual ever left Poland and what his dates of birth and death were.
Hope this is of interest
Chris
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Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 297
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 1:19 pm: |
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Hi Chris-I"ve just come on line after a break up in Wales to find this fascinating research.I will be following it attentively-Thankyou[and for all the rest such as the Dartmoor asylum news report etcetc.A big Thankyou for posting it and sharing it with us here.
Best Natalie. |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 298
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 1:19 pm: |
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Hi Chris-I"ve just come on line after a break up in Wales to find this fascinating research.I will be following it attentively-Thankyou[and for all the rest such as the Dartmoor asylum news report etcetc.A big Thankyou for posting it and sharing it with us here.
Best Natalie. |
Erin Sigler
Police Constable
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 10:59 pm: |
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Chris,
Was Dartmoor the official name of the asylum? I'm trying to find more information on it and all I'm getting is the "Devon County Lunatic Asylum." Are they one and the same? |
Eric Skinner
Police Constable
Username: Eric
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 7:08 pm: |
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Hi Everyone,
This post is in response to R.J. Palmer's post of 9 April 2003, in particular your thoughts about Cohen's being "cured" of syphilis, only to be found "raving" seven months later. You're right on the money, tertiary syphilis usually takes three to fifteen years to appear after the initial infection. There are other possible explanations to explain such behavior, though. It is possible that Cohen may have suffered from a mental disease which was co-morbid with the syphilis. Some possibilities are severe depression or mania which can result in psychosis or he may have become schizophrenic. Either could result in such behavior. |
Erin Sigler
Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 40
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 9:06 pm: |
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Eric,
Isn't it possible for a child to inherit it in the womb? If so, he could be in the tertiary stage by age 15. Besides, what exactly was considered a "cure" for syphilis in the 19th century?  |
Eric Skinner
Police Constable
Username: Eric
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 9:31 pm: |
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Hi Erin,
Well, if memory serves the "cure" was usually that the disease would go into it's latent stage after the initial infection and symptoms. At that point, it was just a matter of time for the secondary and tertiary symptoms to appear. Basically, as soon as the symptoms went away people thought they were cured.
As for the actual "cures" used during the time, one was the use of mercury. Another that I read about was for the infected person to have sex with a virgin. A number of patent medicines, such as sasparilla, were also hawked as possible cures.
Links for patent medicine cures for syphilis
http://www.countway.harvard.edu/archives/iotm/iotm_2002-07.shtml?thematic
http://www.collectmedicalantiques.com/apothecary2.html
Link on "virgin cure"
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=13&click_id=13&art_id=ct1999071620523521R130122&set_id=1 |
shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 9:43 pm: |
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Erin, i don't think it was possible to contract syphilis in the womb...if i'm wrong then it would only be a fifty/fifty chance of contracting the disease and it would only be passed through the infection of the father and not the mother. Eric has filled in the rest of what i was about to say about the disease & cure. It was also this belief of sex with a virgin, that sent child brothels soaring to an all time high in the period. |
Steve Borley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 11:56 am: |
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I've just read through this fascinating thread.
Re the questions concerning the Leman Street address: though the hostel at 84 was supposed to just give relief shelter for newly-arrived Jews, what would they have done if a desitute Jew turned up on their doorstep requesting shelter but they had a suspicion (or knew) they'd helped him previously?
From other work I've read (I think in Martin Fido's 'CDD') there is a suggestion that the Jewish community were keen on finding employment for new arrivals in the East End, in order that they avoid being listed as destitute and falling into the arms of workhouse etc. If the community would organise that, would an insitution provided by the Jewish community turn away someone from the hostel irrespective of the circumstances?
It might have been difficult to register the new arrival under their real name though, as that might have given the game away......just a thought.
Are there any contemporary accounts of the the work of the Temporary Shelter, or any records left by their benefactors/managers? Would a shelter like that have to have been licenced with the local authority? Any records like these might shed some light on the likelihood of a non-newly-arrived Jew being given shelter at 84 Leman Street. |
Paul Williams
Sergeant
Username: Wehrwulf
Post Number: 47
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 12:46 pm: |
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In 1901 there was an Estha Cohen Kaminsky living in Whitechapel. Is it not possible that others would have both Cohen and Kaminsky in their names? |
Gavin Bromley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
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First post so not entirely sure where I should put this.
One issue I have with Fido's Cohen/Kosminski mix up by the authorities concerns Swanson's comments regarding what happened after the identification.
According to Fido's theory, Swanson is talking about the identification of Cohen in late '88, early '89. After this identification he was released back to his brother's house where he was watched by the City CID. Now Fido claims that this clearly refers to events surrounding Kosminski in 1891, and in later years when the information was 'shared' between the forces, Swanson then confuses the events with those concerning Cohen.
But what happened after the supposed identification of Cohen? If he was released back to his family, wouldn't he have been watched by th Met?? They've just released the man they have had identified and believe to be Jack The Ripper, surely he'd need watching? He says the city police watched him but this event supposedly accounts for the fact that Swanson believes the man identified was called Kosminski and this did not happen until 1891. So who was watching Cohen in 1889? Surely he wasn't left without any surveiilance at all?
And if the City Police did watch over Cohen in 1889 (as well as Kosminski in 1891), how come the City Police got confused over which 'Polish Jew' the Met were talking about?
Just something that struck me as I read Fido's theory again. Maybe I've missed something or misunderstood a point?
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D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 1:21 pm: |
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"But what happened after the supposed identification of Cohen?"
>>What happened is he got ever more raving mad, eventually succumbing to exhaustian of dementia. Swanson is confusing Kaminsky/Cohen with Kosminski here. It was Kosminski who was released back into the care of his family, not Kaminsky/Cohen. Kaminsky/Cohen was not released; he bought the farm in the asylum a few months after being placed there.
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 593
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
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David,
Good to see you back on the boards. I hope your time away has been productive and not occasioned by illness.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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1. Mr. Souden,
I'm a bit taken aback by your comment above, and your concern for my health. The last time we communicated was in the chat room, if I remember correctly, and at that time, unhappy with my A?R theory, you expressed a wish for my death! I really don't know what to think now.
2. The post above by Mr. Gavin Bromley got me thinking. There was a man also named Gavin who played a role in the case evidence of the Whitechapel murders. His name was Mr. Uno Gavin. I'll bet nobody posting these boards can identify him, and state his significance to the case. I believe I must be the only one who knows. I'm willing to put money behind this, too. I'll bet that even Mr. Paul Begg himself can't tell us who Uno Gavin was. If Paul Begg posts the correct explanation here, I will promtly send him my cheque for US$10.
David
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 595
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 10:06 pm: |
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For the record folks, I never wished death upon David. Indeed, aside from tax collectors I rarely wish physical harm to anyone. In any case, I am glad to see David back.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 411
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 9:35 pm: |
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I believe I was in the chat room at the same time and can vouch for Don, not that he needs it.
Mags
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Gavin Bromley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
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In response to D.Radka:
"But what happened after the supposed identification of Cohen?"
>>What happened is he got ever more raving mad, eventually succumbing to exhaustian of dementia. Swanson is confusing Kaminsky/Cohen with Kosminski here. It was Kosminski who was released back into the care of his family, not Kaminsky/Cohen. Kaminsky/Cohen was not released; he bought the farm in the asylum a few months after being placed there. >>
So Swanson is supposed to have forgotten that they'd actually kept The Ripper incarcerated, instead misremembering that they'd actually let him go? Sorry but this is not convincing me at all. How could he forget what they did with the man they believed to be Jack The Ripper just after they'd had him identified? Other issues over the Kosminski/Cohen confusion are credible such as getting the name mixed up, but I just can't believe that Swanson could be mislead (I don't mean deliberately, just however it is suggested the confusion took place) into believing that they'd actually released this man, when in fact he'd been kept locked up. I can't see how he'd forget such a detail so close in time to the all important identification.
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D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 11:05 am: |
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Mr. Bromley wrote:
"How could he forget what they did with the man they believed to be Jack The Ripper just after they'd had him identified? Other issues over the Kosminski/Cohen confusion are credible such as getting the name mixed up, but I just can't believe that Swanson could be mislead...into believing that they'd actually released this man, when in fact he'd been kept locked up."
>>The police have got to release anyone against whom there isn't evidence to prosecute. Such were the cases of both Kosminski and Kaminsky/Cohen. When Anderson's witness refused to swear against him, Aaron walked. And Kaminsky/Cohen was not prosecuted, he was sent to the asylum.
What happened to Aaron would make sense to Swanson--he'd think it unfortunate, but a reasonable proposition nonetheless. This is what Swanson writes in his marginalia concerning Kosminski.
There is a near infinitude of ways Kosminski and Kaminsky/Cohen could have been confused by the police. Personally, I don't believe they were confused--that is Mr. Fido's theory. But Mr. Fido is correct, I think, in suggesting there could have been such a confusion. I don't think it is profitable to argue against Mr. F as you seem to want to do. If here were here, he could point out many plausible ways the confusion could have taken place.
PS Who was Uno Gavin?
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Gavin Bromley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:44 am: |
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Thanks for your reply David. I'm sure there are a number of ways the 2 men could be confused, but my point against the 'confusion' occuring is similar to the one Martin Fido makes in it's favour. He questions how Swanson could get the fate wrong of the man he believed to be Jack The Ripper (ie saying he had died shortly after being sent to Colney Hatch, when in fact Kosminski was still alive at the time he wrote the notes/marginalia).
If the 'confusion' is supposed to have happened in Swanson's mind I am similarly questioning how he could get confused over what happened to the Ripper immediately after being identified - surely whether he was released, or whether he was incarcerated would stick in his mind so soon after such a significant event - the identification of Jack The Ripper.
I was also just trying to ensure I'd got the story about the confusion straight.
It certainly is worth questioning why Swanson believed Kosminski had died when in fact he was still alive about 20 or so years later when Swanson made his notes, but I'm not convinced by Martin Fido's theory. I believe it less likely that Swanson would forget what happened immediately after identification, than he'd get mixed up over whether the man had died or not subsequently, given that he'd be more involved in the events of the former than the latter where he'd perhaps get periodic updates, and a mistake in these periodic enquiries about the man could get confused at either end over a difficult name.
As for it not being a profitable to argue in such a way, I'm just making a point, maybe a minor one, but one I hadn't seen mentioned before. I'm not quite sure what would be regarded as profitable as it's often little points made here or there that point to a more likely answer to a particular little part of the 'story'.
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D. Radka
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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1. “Mr. Bromley wrote: Thanks for your reply David. I'm sure there are a number of ways the 2 men could be confused, but my point against the 'confusion' occuring is similar to the one Martin Fido makes in it's favour. He questions how Swanson could get the fate wrong of the man he believed to be Jack The Ripper (ie saying he had died shortly after being sent to Colney Hatch, when in fact Kosminski was still alive at the time he wrote the notes/marginalia).”
>>It seems to me both you and Mr. F are thinking of this as more or less a typical police investigation. In other words the police investigate, they discuss it among themselves, the suspect is deemed unfit for prosecution but fit for the asylum, and they keep tabs on him there. But this doesn’t have to be the way it happened. The whole Kosminski-Kaminsky/Cohen affair is shot through with atypical and exceptional factors. Why didn’t Anderson coerce his witness with a subpoena, why was the strange identification held at Hove, why did the witness identify but not testify, etc? The criterion of being typical doesn’t hold, does it? Accordingly, something additional and likewise atypical or exceptional could well have happened to account for why Swanson doesn’t know the suspect to be still alive. And this could be because Anderson told him the suspect was dead, when he wasn’t.
2. “If the 'confusion' is supposed to have happened in Swanson's mind I am similarly questioning how he could get confused over what happened to the Ripper immediately after being identified - surely whether he was released, or whether he was incarcerated would stick in his mind so soon after such a significant event - the identification of Jack The Ripper.”
>>Nothing indicates that Swanson was confused over what happened to the Ripper immediately after he was identified. He clearly says he was released back into the care of his brother. It stuck perfectly in his mind.
3. “…It certainly is worth questioning why Swanson believed Kosminski had died when in fact he was still alive about 20 or so years later when Swanson made his notes, but I'm not convinced by Martin Fido's theory. I believe it less likely that Swanson would forget what happened immediately after identification, than he'd get mixed up over whether the man had died or not subsequently, given that he'd be more involved in the events of the former than the latter where he'd perhaps get periodic updates, and a mistake in these periodic enquiries about the man could get confused at either end over a difficult name.”
>>I agree. A mistake in periodic updates would be more likely. But that assumes Swanson received any legitimate albeit mistaken periodic updates. He needn’t have. He needn’t have ever known from direct or from official police sources in the normal course of police work what happened to the suspect, or perhaps not after a certain point. He could have been fed second-hand information beginning at some point, and that information could have been incorrect, intentionally or unintentionally.
4. “As for it not being a profitable to argue in such a way, I'm just making a point, maybe a minor one, but one I hadn't seen mentioned before. I'm not quite sure what would be regarded as profitable as it's often little points made here or there that point to a more likely answer to a particular little part of the 'story'.”
>>It seems to me you are making a very good start in learning how to argue the various points of this case.
PS Who was Uno Gavin? Stephen Ryder knows.
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Gavin Bromley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 7:49 am: |
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>>Nothing indicates that Swanson was confused over what happened to the Ripper immediately after he was identified. He clearly says he was released back into the care of his brother. It stuck perfectly in his mind.
That's my point, Swanson is clear about this, but Fido says Swanson is getting 2 different suspects confused, and my point is, if Swanson is talking about Cohen then I don't think he'd have got it wrong about what happened to him immediately after identification.
Being released back into the care of his brother is what happened to Kosminski, and not Cohen.
Sorry, I don't know who Uno Gavin was - I know he appears on that sheet of faces which includes Michael Ostrog, but beyond that I don't know. |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
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Going back a bit, Shelley Wiltshire wrote:
"Erin, i don't think it was possible to contract syphilis in the womb"
It is possible for the mother to infect a foetus with syphilis and this usually results in a very sickly young child. However, in some cases the symptoms don't manifest themselves in childhood but appear much later, and in a very odd manner. This is known as Late [onset] Congenital Syphilis.
Symptoms may include one or all of the following:
a flattening of the bridge of the nose and flaring of the nostrils; grooved, chisel-shaped (adult) dentition - called "Hutchinson's Teeth" [no relation to George!]; inflammation and degeneration of the joints; varying degrees of blindness and/or deafness; behavioural changes, sometimes manifesting as uncontrollable outbursts of rage.
It is widely believed that Ludwig van Beethoven suffered from Late Congenital Syphilis - his deafness and bad temper are as legendary as they were well attested to and he suffered arthritic pains in his joints from a relatively young age. Quite how his teeth looked I don't know, and - apart from one cartoon I recall, where Ludwig has a distinctly "piggy" look - his nose appeared normal.
It is possible for a sufferer to survive into late adulthood without being completely crippled by the disease. As Erin stated long ago, it is certainly possible that all or any of the symptoms associated with Late Congenital Syphilis can manifest themselves at any time, from the teens and (as with Beethoven) right through to the late twenties/early thirties.
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