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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 713
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 7:40 pm: | 
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The certificate arrived today. I will eventually scan it and offer it to Stephen for posting on this site. Unfortunately, no date of death is given. The handwritten information given amounts to this:
When and where died: F.D. (found dead) December 31st, 1888 The River Thames Chiswick U.S.D (?)
Name and surname: Montague John Druitt
Sex: Male
Age: 31 years
Occupation: Barrister at Law
Cause of death: Found dead. Drowned by his own act whilst of unsound Mind
Signature, description and residence of informant: Certificate received from Thomas Brannah Diplock, Coroner for Middlesex. Inquest held 2nd January 1889.
When registered: Second January 1889
Signature of registrar: /s/ Chas Lawrence Registrar
So, nothing terribly exciting. But at least we looked. I was afraid my wife would throw a fit when she found out I ordered this but it didn't phase her a bit. Perhaps I'll frame it and mount it on the wall. 
Andy S.
(Message edited by aspallek on January 12, 2005)
(Message edited by aspallek on January 12, 2005) |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 714
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:13 pm: |
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Here is a scan of the document, much reduced in size. Sorry, with the filesize posting limitations I can't do any better.
Andy S. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 715
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
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Let's try again. This time in two pieces:
Andy S. |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 24
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 1:55 am: |
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Amazing - a real link with the sad event. Thank you.
With MJD I always wonder whether the allegations about him being JtR traduce an innocent, and tragic man. Or whether we are looking at a man who lived a terrible double life.
Here we see the brief and toneless official epitaph on that life.
Thoughtfully,
Phil |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3865
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 2:24 am: |
|
Hi Andy
Thanks for obtaining and posting that certificate.
I don't know what USD means, but the coroner's middle name was Bramah.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 616
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 3:55 am: |
|
Andrew
Thanks for posting the details of MJD's death certificate.
I believe USD = "Urban Sanitary District".
Chris Phillips
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 324
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 5:31 am: |
|
Well done Andrew,
Seeing the actual certificate is reassuring in this realm of nebula and chimera!
Robert pointed out the Coroner's unusual middle name:"Bramah".
I still think some enterprising researcher could track down Dr Diplock's present descendants. Who knows? His diaries or notebooks might still survive. Later generations of Diplocks became doctors, so his notes would have been of interest to them. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 303
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
|
Hi Andrew,
Nice to see that you got MJD's death certificate and thanks for sharing.
However it still seems to leave unaswered how we come to have the information that he was last seen alive on 3rd. December. Something to which I suppose we can give further thought too. I like John Ruffels idea of trying to track down the descendants of Dr. Diplock I wonder if we could do it?
Regards
John Savage |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 716
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 11:08 am: |
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Exactly, John. My hope was that the death registry would have given that as a death date -- or date last seen alive. Oh well.
The information that Druitt was last seen alive on December 3, 1888 comes from a legal source -- probate records -- so it is interesting that it does not appear on the death registry. There are two possibilities as I see it. Either mention was made of this in the inquest (unlikely, since that information is not mentioning in the new account of the inquest) or that information was supplied to the probate court by the Druitt family (more likely, since this accords in general with Montague's grave marker).
The question is whether this date is definite or simply a deduction based upon the statement that he had not been seen at his chambers for more than a week by December 11. The information was given to the probate court after the inquest in spite of the fact that information given at the inquest strongly suggests a death date of December 1 or 2. It is a puzzle.
Do we know for a fact that the inquest report no longer exists, or has it merely gone missing? As to finding anthing in Diplock's memoirs, that's probably a longshot. But it's worth a try.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on January 13, 2005) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1426
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
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Yes Thankyou for sharing this information with us Andrew.Like Phil I actally find it rather difficult to relate all his activities with the period----including his suicide which seemed not much long after his court success and his attendance at meetings and work as treasurer of the Blackheath Cricket Club.
However if he was suffering from some form of mental illness which was patchy and unpredictable in nature perhaps,then the whole thing changes.Its possible I suppose though unlikely.
Best
Natalie |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 304
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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Hi Andy,
It seems pretty certain that the records of the inquest no longer exist. I have just checked Howells & Skinner "The Ripper Legacy, and Sugden " The Complete History of JTR" and they both confirm that the records are lost.
Regards
John Savage |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 717
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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John,
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I wonder what "lost" means. Does it mean they have certainly been destroyed, either by intentional purging or perhaps in the Blitz. Or does "lost" simply mean they have gone missing but may still exist somewhere?
Andy S. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 305
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 8:53 pm: |
|
Hi Andy,
I think we just have to accept that they have been lost. We will probably never know the reason why, but it could be explained simply by the fact that a lot of old records were destroyed in World War II, because they needed material to pulp and make new paper. I am afraid we shall probably never know the reason why, we just have to accept things the way they are.
I don't think we can put any suspicion on the reason for the loss, it's simply the luck of the draw. If any new information about MJD's death comes to light then I expect it will have to come from other sources.
Regards
John Savage |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 557
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 9:42 pm: |
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Hi Andy
Fascinating to see that death certificate at last. Now if only the Thames River Police records (and supposedly photograph of the dead Monty) would turn up. But given the percentage of missing documents in this case, it seems likely to believe it won't.
Regards.
Jeff |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 618
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 3:33 am: |
|
On the River Police, I think the previous conclusion was that the discovery of Druitt's body lay outside their jurisdiction. John Savage posted that this went only as far as Chelsea Bridge:
http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4922&post=98363#POST98363
Chris Phillips
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 718
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
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It seems I'm not getting my point across very well. I didn't mean to imply there was any suspicion in the inquest report's disappearance. All I'm wondering is whether we know that the report was destroyed (e.g. intentional purging or the Blitz) or whether it has merely gone missing. If it has only gone missing, I agree that there is only a slim chance of it turning up (as did the Kelly autopsy report) but at least there would be a chance.
I wonder if the Druitt family kept a copy of the report. In going through my own mother's things after her recent death I found all sorts of old documents: her mother's and her father's death certificates, etc. From what I hear, however, the Druitt family did not wish to discuss any connection with the Whitechapel murders.
Andy S. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3882
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:04 pm: |
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Hi Andy
Obviously, there's a slim chance of turning up the inquest papers.
But there is the additional chance of turning up a really thorough inquest newspaper report.
If Supt Cutbush's inquest can be reorted in a Liverpool newspaper (and that is the only report of his inquest that I have so far seen) then Druitt's could have been reported anywhere. Who knows what might be lying around on microfilm?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3884
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 2:54 pm: |
|
PS Andy, not sure now whether the Cutbush report was from a Liverpool paper. But whether it was or it wasn't, I remain optimistic about Druitt.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3888
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:46 pm: |
|
Just had a quick flick through the "Times" for the war years and the concern seemed to have less to do with public records lost through enemy action, than privately owned records getting lost or junked by individuals or firms that were re-locating.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 308
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 6:57 pm: |
|
Hi Andy,
I am sorry if my last post mislead you but what I was trying to say is that the only information we have from any of the books dealing with MJD is that the coroners papers are lost.
It may be that they still exist somewhere and remain unfound, however I have found no details of anyone having searched for them, I just presume that over the years the many writers who have investigated Monty would have tried to search for them.
I am unclear if the coroners papers would have passed to the Lock Hospital were Diplock worked, or if they would have been passed to the law courts, or local authorities. I beleive David O'Flaherty has been investigating coroners and he may have some ideas.
I think that we need to know the formalities for archiving such papers and then possibly we may be able to follow up and at least establish when and how they went missing.
Regards
John Savage |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 691
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 8:59 pm: |
|
Hi John and Andy,
I'm still early on in my learning about coroners. They were independent judicial officers, so their papers were their own private property. I haven't found much in the Coroner's Act 1887 regarding disposal of papers--an inquest report would've gone to a court of law in cases where a coroner and jury found someone guilty of murder or manslaughter, which wasn't the case with Druitt. Every year, coroners had to come up with a return of all their cases for the year to a "Secretary of State"--summaries I guess for the Home Office, so they could gather statistics. Local authorities set the fees for coroners and would reimburse them for expenses like paying medical witnesses, travelling expenses etc--all that came out of the coroner's pocket. I came across a letter from Thomas Diplock complaining about the local authority, how he hadn't had a raise in ten years and had to pay all these expenses and wouldn't Parliament please save him from the local authority? Diplock complains that for the year 1870 he had to pay out over thirteen hundred pounds while only drawing a salary of six hundred fifty pounds. He calculated he'd traveled 3500 miles going back and forth across West London investigating almost 700 inquests. Apparently Parliament didn't listen to him as they still have the local authority paying coroners in 1887. The local authorities could be stingy. 
So coroners were underpaid and overworked. They've making a serious overhaul of the whole system now--all because of Shipman. Major, major reforms. I'll be writing about that in my article although I'm sure it's big news in England.
Other than what I mentioned, I don't see anything about retention of records in the 1887 legislation. Paul Begg told me last summer that coroners were required to hold their records for fifteen years--I don't know if that's from later legislation or not. Like I said, I'm still early on.
So it seems that there were no official guidelines, at least not long-term. Langham's stuff winds up in the local archives, Baxter's ends up with Jimmy Hoffa somewhere. However, there may have been unofficial guidelines--I've an inquiry in with The Coroner's Society, which is an advisory and lobbying group for coroners, kind of similar to what the The American Bar is for lawyers, or GFOA or GASB to governmental accountants here in the States. They do seminars, etc and are working with the Home Office on the new reforms. They've been around since 1846, and probably all the Ripper coroners were members, especially a career coroner like Thomas Diplock. Samuel Langham was the Society's secretary for 36 years. Since Langham's papers wound up with the local archives, perhaps that was the Society's recommendation. But I haven't heard back from them yet, so I'm guessing.
I don't know what steps have been taken in trying to track down Diplock's case papers--Farson, David Andersen, Howells & Skinner--I'm sure they all did some serious scouring of the Chiswick area, but I don't know any specifics. I'm sure the local archives, families have been checked.
This is just my gut feeling, but I don't think any coroner, any career coroner like Wynne Baxter or Thomas Diplock, would have destroyed their case papers. One thing I'm learning about coroners is that they feel a tremendous duty--Diplock helped build a bath in Hammersmith because he'd presided over an inquest where a kid drowned trying to learn to swim in the Thames. I think they would have felt a responsibility to the families if not their own careers. I mean really--if it was you, would you destroy your own case papers representing your forty year career? I wouldn't, not even to save space, or save myself in a fire. My papers of forty years are getting out before I do.
Anyway, I don't know what Diplock did with his papers and I'm still learning about coroners. If you want, drop me a line sometime as I'm learning by the day.
Cheers,
Dave
|
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 326
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 2:20 am: |
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Well done Dave,
More strength to your arm!
Don't take anyone's word for anything.
I wonder if someone with access to London phone books or Medical Directories could have a quick
look and see if there are any medical persons listed with the surname "Diplock" and especially
the distinctive family middle name: "Bramah"?
Why, even the Probate Calendars would show something!
The "A to Z of Jack The Ripper" provides basic information of Coroner Diplock's life. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 720
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
|
Thanks, Dave.
I've been laboring under the influence of our modern world in which an official copy of everything is filed. I guess that was not the case in 1888. It is not unlikely that Diplock never filed an official report. Anything is possible, but I doubt whether his personal records would have survived all these years.
However, if the police were convinced Druitt was their man, wouldn't they have procured an inquest and/or autopsy report as internal proof that the Ripper was dead? Chances are this would not have been placed in the Ripper file due to its sensitive nature. Where might it have been filed? Could it still be extant? Unfortunately, there is no suitable starting place to search.
Robert makes a good point about thoroughly searching newspapers for a better account of the inquest. This will be tedious and, unfortunately must be done onsite in England. But the good news is that we are dealing with a very specific time period. One only must search the two or three days after the inquest and many of these local newspapers were very small.
I am still surprised that after all these years there is so much about Druitt left uninvestigated. True, some sources were not available in the past. But in recent weeks on this forum we have produced the registry entry of Druitt's death (previously unpublished to my knowledge) and the information that he was functioning normally in court cases days before his disappearance and a probate calendar entry suggesting that Druitt was seen alive on December 3.
Some areas for investigation:
1. Has the Druitt family been approached recently? Perhaps some recent descendant is willing to discuss his ancestor. Perhaps the family has copies of relevant documents, letters, etc.
2. Have the descendants of Eliot Place pupils been contacted? Are their diaries or family recollections of a sadistic assistant master?
3. What efforts have been made to trace the whereabouts of Eliot Place School records, specifically ledgers that might record the date of the two cheques found on Druitt? (I admit, this has probably been done).
Some things to think about.
Andy S. |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 696
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
|
Hi Andy,
"I've been laboring under the influence of our modern world in which an official copy of everything is filed. I guess that was not the case in 1888."
Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that even presently, coroners are required to file their actual reports with anyone, only summaries for statistical purposes. They can choose to provide copies of inquest reports (for example, in the case where a local authority can do something to prevent future deaths, although no authority is required to act upon such a report). It looks like that's going to change. In his position paper on coroner reform (Feb 2004), former Home Secretary Blunkett recommended that in the future coroners should routinely file inquest reports with directors of public health or any other relevant organizations . Blunkett wrote that "there is no mechanism for monitoring reports from different coroners in relation to similar problems or shortcomings." He also recommended that the Chief Coroner (a proposed new position which will be coming into effect in the near future) utilize inquest reports in annual reports to Parliament, so that common causes of deaths can be addressed to help prevent future occurrences if they can. Again, some coroners may already be doing that on their own, publicly or privately--I'm reminded of Dr. Diplock's inquest into a boy drowning while trying to teach himself to swim; then there was a subsequent private effort in Hammersmith to provide facilities to teach people to swim.
Blunkett also wrote "nor is the existence of coroner's reports widely known." Seems like an odd statement given that coroners' inquests are judicial proceedings routinely covered in the press.
Best,
Dave |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 629
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
|
On newspaper reports of the inquest, we tried to compile a full list of the ones we knew about back on the old boards in January/February 2003.
I wrote, 28 January 2003:
These are the ones I've seen reprinted:
(1) Acton, Chiswick and Turnham Green Gazette, 5 January 1889 [printed by Howells and Skinner, and by Evans and Skinner]
(2) County of Middlesex Independent, 2 [report of body being found] and 5 [inquest] January 1889 [both printed by Begg]
(3) Dorset County Chronicle and Somersetshire Gazette, 10 January 1889 [printed by Evans and Skinner, and on this site as "Dorset Chronicle"]
(4) Richmond and Twickenham Times, 5 January 1889 [printed by Begg, and by Evans and Skinner]
(5) Southern Guardian, ? January 1889 [Extract dated 5 January printed by Begg; fuller version making clear it is partly quoting the Echo, and including list of those present at funeral, printed by Evans and Skinner, but misdated 1 January]
(6) Thames Valley Times, 2 January 1889 [report of body being found, printed by Evans and Skinner]
(7) West London Observer, 5 January 1889 [printed by Begg]
I haven't seen the report from the "Echo", but it is quoted by the Southern Guardian.
I posted these two extra ones from John Ruffels on 30 January 2003:
THE WIMBORNE GUARDIAN,5 Jan.,1889;
THE ECHO(London)3 Jan.,1889
And John himself posted more details,31 January 2003:
For general information, Colindale Newspaper Library did a search for me(back in '77!!)and they listed nil returns for:COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX CHRONICLE,BOROUGH OF LEWISHAM HERALD,BOROUGH OF LEWISHAM GAZETTE,RICHMOND HERALD,BOURNEMOUTH OBSERVER,CHRISTCHURCH TIMES.The SOUTHERN GUARDIAN, published in Wimborne, carried the exact extract issued in the BOURNEMOUTH GUARDIAN.
The following London newspapers were searched without success:EVENING NEWS,THE STAR, DAILY NEWS,THE PEOPLE,NEWS OF THE WORLD and THE TIMES.
This was not an exhaustive list and lack of staff prevented complete coverage.
Funnily enough, in the same thread the probate entries for MJD and his mother were posted. "There is nothing new under the sun ...!"
Chris Phillips
|
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 697
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 2:17 pm: |
|
Thanks for mentioning that Montague John Druitt archives from Feb 2003, Chris. I see that Jeffrey Bloomfield mentioned another suicide Dr. Diplock investigated that year. Fans of literature might be interested in one of Dr. Diplock's earlier cases, also involving a suicide. This is from The Times, 18 Sept 1882:
On Saturday Dr. Diplock held an inquiry at the Hope Tavern, Arthur-street, Chelsea, as to the death of a man, not yet identified, who jumped off a steamboat on Thursday evening. Mr. Bram Stoker said he lived at 27, Cheyne-walk, Chelsea, and was acting manager at the Lyceum Theatre. On Thursday evening he was on a steamer which was going from Chelsea to London-bridge. He saw the deceased, who was also on the boat, deliberately jump off into the water. Witness threw of his coat and jumped overboard after him, grappled with him, and eventually brought him to the steamer. The deceased, who appeared to have some life in him, was placed on the deck, and means were taken to resuscitate him, but to no effect. Henry Trumfield, a waterman, said he was left in charge of the steamer Twilight on Thursday. He noticed the deceased, who was standing aft, got over the rails of the vessel and jump into the river. He thought the deceased was only in the water five minutes. Police-sergeant George Ross, 5 T, said that a description of the deceased had been circulated, but no one had claimed the body. He appeared to have been a soldier, as he was branded with a “D.” His age was between 60 and 70. He had lost one finger, and was bald. In reply to the coroner, the sergeant said that Mr. Stoker had the body of the deceased taken to his house at Cheyne-walk, and called medical aid. The jury returned a verdict “the deceased committed suicide, but that there was no evidence to show his state of mind.”
I have to say that Stoker comes off rather well
Cheers,
Dave
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 558
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:01 pm: |
|
Hi Dave,
Well now I'm curious (as a side issue) whether any of the biographies of the author of Dracula mention his witnessing a suicide in September 1882? The branded "D" suggests the soldier may have been punished for some serious infraction (I keep imagining "D" standing for "Dishonest", "Dishonorable", or "Disciplined") but this is guesswork, so I may be wrong. Somehow I don't think he belonged to Squadron or Troop "D".
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 698
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
|
Hi Jeffrey,
I wondered the same thing. I looked for some sort of group of Stoker scholars to pass that on to, but people seem more interested in the gothic scene than the writer.
I wonder if the suicide was a former deserter (who was obviously caught at some point in his earlier life).
Cheers,
Dave
|
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 310
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
|
Hi All,
I have been busy down at the library today swatting up on coroners, and have found a couple of items which may be of interest.
I will try to scan them in and post them tommorow.
Rgds
John Savage |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 724
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
|
Indeed, "D" could stand for "deserter."
Andy S. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1467
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
|
Hi John,
I had a quick look in the London phone directory and there are no Dr Diplocks.They might though be ex directory!
There are just two London Diplocks and neither seems to have the other name you are after.
Natalie |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 699
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
|
Hi Jeffrey,
I understand that Barbara Belford covers the incident in her book Bram Stoker: A Biography of the Author of Dracula. I'm going to pick up a copy tomorrow.
Dave |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 559
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 9:55 pm: |
|
Hi Dave,
I am curious if the Belford biography gives the deceased a name, identity, and history. If he was a deserter, his military crime may be from the Crimean War period of the mid-1850s.
Jeff
|
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 329
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 5:10 am: |
|
An interesting inquest to use as an example of Coronial procedure David O'Flaherty, thanks.
Dr Diplock was a longtime, experienced Coroner.
Good that Chris Phillips should point out the value of checking past Casebook threads (using both the Keyword "Search" facility on the Message Boards section, and by purchasing the very reasonably priced and easy to use CD ROM of past
message board postings ).
Hands up those who can name the well-known Ripperologist (now dead) who was a descendant of Bram Stoker and who wrote a biography of him?
Don't just put your hand up, tell us who it was.
Finally, I once worked with a now-dead colleague who was a great believer in finding nuggets of JTR information in regional British newspapers.
So I support anyone who will plow through the 1888-90 newspapers in their town. There are several very good researchers on these boards who have practised this doctrine for years. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 311
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:41 am: |
|
Hi All,
I have been reading through "Jervis on the Office and Duties of Coroners, 10th. edtion, London 1986"
Apart from a requirement to keep his records for a minimum of 15 years and make an annual return of his cases the coroner seems to have had pretty well a free hand.
The following extract from Jervis, deals with a possibility that Andy Spallek suggested, that the Druit family may have had a copy of the Coroner's report.
 |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 312
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:45 am: |
|
Hi Again,
My second extract from Jervis deals with what may have happened to Coroners papers:
 |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 313
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:56 am: |
|
And Finally,
Whilst at the library I checked my usual sources for a little background information of Dr. Diplock, so I hope the following is of interest.
Diplock, Thomas Bramah M.R.C.S. 1853; M.D. St. Andrew’s 1856; surgeon London Friendly Inst; coroner for West Middlesex Feb. 1868 to death. d. from cancer of the tongue at 13 High Road, Chiswick, 29 April 1892. Times 30 April 1892 p.7; Daily Graphic 2 may 1892 p.5
(From BBI – Boase Modern English Biography 1892-1921)
Diplock, Thomas Bramah of Mornington House, Chiswick Middlesex Esquire M.D. Died 29 April 1892. Probate London to Bramah Joseph Diplock granite merchant and Leonard Bramah Diplock esquire. Effects £1300 3s 1d.
(From National Probate Calendars)
Another notable legal eagle with the name Diplock was responsible for what were known as the “ Diplock Courts” in Northern Ireland during the 1970-80’s. This was William John Kenneth Diplock, Baron Diplock (1907 – 1985). Born at 8 Barclay Road, South Croydon, only child of William Hubert Diplock Solicitor. (Dictionary of National Biography, new edition). I have not checked to see if they are related, but it is a possibility.
Regards
John Savage |
Chris Phillips
Chief Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 631
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 7:24 am: |
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I wonder if Bramah Joseph Diplock, granite merchant, is the same who wrote A new system of heavy goods transport on common roads (London, Longmans Green, 1902), having in 1893 taken out "a patent for a four-wheel drive engine":
http://www.polybiblio.com/elton/5674.html
If so, there's a clue to a later descendant, as the copy for sale at the above URL is inscribed "Leonard B. Diplock".
Evidently there were also Bramah Diplocks about the same time in Canada. These pages on the history of North Vancouver mention Mr A. Bramah Diplock, who was President of the Western Development Corporation in 1901, and his son Thomas Bramah Diplock, whose The North Shore of Burrard Inlet from 1897 and Other Reminiscences was privately published in 1978:
http://www.dnv.org/upload/documents/District_History/56884B.pdf
http://www.dnv.org/upload/documents/District_History/56499c.pdf
Chris Phillips
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 700
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 9:59 am: |
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John,
Great work. I have to say that's a pretty disheartening passage about post 1874 papers being destroyed. I wonder what's happened to Diplock's papers from before 1874? I know he was holding inquests before that so perhaps there's a ray of hope. Also, the destruction of documents appears to be a 1967 policy. Doesn't the search for inquest papers predate that? I don't know if I'm right, but Dan Farson was onto Druitt from 1959 on, correct? By the way, I've heard that Dan Farson is the answer to your question, John Ruffels
The Coroners Rules also have coroners passing along all inquest-related material to their successors. As near as I can tell, the first set of Rules is from 1953. What, I wonder, was the policy before that?
John, if it's convenient, can you email me the footnotes from these sections? I think you have my address, but it's oflaherty@casebook.org if you don't have it.
Cheers,
Dave
Jeffrey, I'll let you know what I find out about that book.
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 701
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
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Hi Jeffrey,
Barbara Belford wrote that the man was never identified. According to this book, Stoker first tried to grab the man from the railing but the man was holding his face under the water. So Stoker jumped in and kept the man above water until a boat came. After Stoker's house, George Stoker attempted to give the man mouth-to-mouth which failed. Stoker received a bronze medal from the Royal Humane Society.
Ms. Belford references an article from The Penny Illustrated News praising Stoker and also an illustration from The Entr'Acte. An illustration of the incident is reproduced on pg 137 of the book (sorry I don't have a scanner).
After thinking about it, I don't know if the British military ever branded soldiers as a punishment.
Cheers,
Dave
Stoker received a bronze medal from the Royal Humane Society. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 314
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:49 am: |
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Hi Dave,
I agree its not good news about the destruction of these sort of documents, but I thought it relevant. I beleive that some coroners papers for Middlesex of the period may survive at the London Metropolitan Archive, but I just presume others will already have checked that. It is a long time since I read Farson so I cannot say if he searched for the coroners papers.
E mailing you the docs. I posted above.
Regards
John Savage |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 702
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
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Hi John
Oh, I think what you posted is very relevant so thanks for posting them. Thanks also for your email which I just got. I'm trying to reply to you but my mail's getting returned. I'll continue to try.
Cheers,
Dave |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 729
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 12:22 pm: |
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Thanks, John, for your digging!
I want to be clear that it is most likely the the inquest papers have been destroyed. Yet I see a strong ray of hope here!
The 15-year policy was indeed a 1967 agreement. To me, this suggests that a lot of post-1874 material was being preserved for longer periods of time before 1967. The 15-year reference is ambiguous. Does it start with the date of the document or does it start at 1967? In other words, would an 1889 document have been discarded in 1967 or in 1982? This might make a difference as to determining whether Druitt's inquest records would be considered of historical interest, though it would be difficult to imagine someone in 1982 noting the significance of the name Druitt and not bringing it to someone's attention!
One might assume the 15-year figure was not pulled out of the air, but was rather already a standard practise of many coroners. Diplock lived only about two years after the Druitt inquest. He almost certainly would have had the inquest report in his own possession (storage) at the time of his own death, especially if he himself might have realized its historical significance (could have been communicated confidentially by SY). Properly, these records should have been turned over to Diplock's successor (who was...?). But they may have been delivered along with his personal files to his family or they may have ended up in storage at the "county archives" of Middlesex (has anybody searched there?).
Now, to the point. Check this out: http://www.nra.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/sidocs.asp?SIR=O43518
Middlesex County Western District Coroner's case papers and photographic exhibits from 1890-1965 are on file, but this is one year too late for Druitt!!!! Still, might be worth a look.
This .pdf (http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/8BD3611E-10EE-4E45-875E-C60D047089C2/0/coronerinquests.pdf) suggests that surviving Middlesex County Coroner's inquest reports from 1889 onward are stored at the London Metropolitan Archives (LMA). Has anybody looked?
I, too, would like to see the footnotes for John's second citation, particularly nos. 24, 25, 26.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on January 18, 2005)
(Message edited by Aspallek on January 18, 2005) |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 703
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 12:41 pm: |
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Hi Andy,
I'm sure the London Metropolitan Archives have been tried many times, but just to let you know, I did send an inquiry to them on 13 January. I don't think anything will come of my inquiry, but if I hear something interesting I'll let you know.
The references:
Note 24 is Home Office circular No. 250 of 1967, App., para. 1-2.
Note 25: Ibid, para. 3
Note 26: The Keeper's address is The Public Record Office, Chancery Lane, London, WC2.
(Message edited by oberlin on January 18, 2005) |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 730
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 1:04 pm: |
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Dave,
Thanks. I'm glad you made the inquiry. In this particular case I wouldn't assume that even the most obvious has been tried. My point is that the LMA, the National Archives, and Middlesex County historical records (if there is still a separate repository for them) should all be checked and inquiries made, if possible, with Diplock's family, his successor's family, and Druitt's family (the last being sensitive, I know).
My hunch is that SY also procured a copy to hold as an "ace in the hole" should it ever be necessary to "prove" that the killer (or a least the strongest suspect) is dead. It would not have been filed in the Ripper file and it might still be extant.
Andy S. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 330
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 4:47 am: |
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Regarding Andy's reference to approaching the present-day Druitt descendants seeking records of the Druitt Inquest.
I believe, at least till the 1960's there was a firm of solicitors named 'Druitt" in either Bournemouth or Christchurch.
From my own knowledge of solicitors offices,( at least in Australia),these firms file red ribbon bound folders for at least one hundred years.
It is more than likely the firm of Druitt and Druitt(cousins) would have possessed private papers concerning Montague Druitt, whether his estate and Will, let alone the Coroner's Report.
Whether Montague Druitt's solicitor brother, William, an actual member of that firm, took these sensitive papers home or even destroyed them,might be worth some brazen diplomat checking.
Some Ripperologists would be aware one of the Druitt family was Sir Harvey Druitt, Treasury Solicitor in the early 1960's!
He was certainly aware of the Druitt suspicion
having been phoned on the subject by Ripper researcher and cricket statistition,Irving Rosenwater of London. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3922
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 8:34 am: |
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One point that occurs : if William was economical with the truth, then I bet that, being a cautious solicitor (I'm told they all are) he'd have wanted a record to remind him just what he did and didn't say, in case of future action.
As years passed and his "secret" (if such there was) remained hidden, he may of course have destroyed his copy.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 315
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:33 am: |
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Hi John Ruffels,
I noted your point about the firm of druitt solicitors, so I checked the yellow pages for Bournemouth which has an advert for "Druitts Solicitors, the name people trust since 1837".
Their web site address is www.druitts.co.uk
I cannot be sure this is the same firm as William Druitt, but they may be worth a try.
Regards
John Savage |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 735
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 3:04 pm: |
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John,
Of you look at their history page (http://www.druitts.co.uk/history.htm#) it is clear that this is same Druitt family. There is James Druitt, Jr. (Monty's uncle, I believe) and Robert Druitt (Monty's cousin) as well as James, Sr.
A note at the bottom of the page warns against reproducing these photos, but I think you can see a resemblance to Monty's long, narrow face and nose in James, Jr.
Unfortunately, it seems that the firm has been sold and re-sold and is no longer in the Druitt family. Still, might there be records of interest?
Andy S. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3931
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:00 am: |
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Just in passing, I don't know whether someone's already mentioned this :
http://www.thisisdorset.net/dorset/archive/2004/12/17/EAST_DORSET_NEWS_NEWS13ZM.html
Robert |
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