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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 235
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 10:15 pm: |       |
Stuck out here in Sydney, Australia, I am limited
in my access to Post Office Directories for London. My major local library holds the Kellys Post Office Directory for 1886, but not any closer to the important year, 1888.
If any one would like it, I could post up the occupants of Druitt's chambers, 9 Kings Bench Walk, for that year: 1886.
I have done some research to discover long-term occupants, in an effort to establish if any might have been "friends " of Montague Druitt.
I would be only too pleased to share their biographical details , so far discovered.
A couple like, ALGERNON HASKETT- SMITH were prominent cricketers.(He, unfortunately died in 1887, so he would not be relevant). But from such a list we might be able to extrapolate (LOVE that word!)others who not only had occupied chambers in KBW but also had mingled with Jack The Druitt at cricket matches and say, Blackheath school.
The important question for all these directory searches is, which is the important book to look at for current end of 1888 information? 1888 or 1889???
JOHN RUFFELS.
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 388
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 10:34 pm: | |
Hi John,
What happened to Algernon Haskett-Smith? Was he a young man when he died?
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2522
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 8:48 am: | |
From "The Times" Nov 9th, pg. 16, property section :
By order of the Mortgagees. - The Limes, Bushey-hill-road, Camberwell. - The valuable Freehold Property, comprising the detached family residence, with garden and stabling. Possession on completion of purchase.
CHAS. WILLIAMS is instructed by the Morgagees to SELL by AUCTION, on the premises, on Wednesday, Nov. 14th, 1888, at 1 o'clock, previous to the sale of the furniture. Particulars of C.E. Lacy, Esq., Solicitor, 9, King's Bench-walk, Temple ; and of the Auctioneer, New-inn-chambers, Strand.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 236
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 6:59 pm: | |
Jeffrey, Hello,
Yes,ALGERNON HASKETT-SMITH was only 31 when he died. He was born 4th July (Yeah! A Yankee Doodle Dandy!)1856 eldest son of -- Haskett-Smith of Trowswell, Kent. Eton, University College Oxford, Middle Temple from 23 April, 1880. Called to the Bar 18th April, 1883. Address: Trowswell, Goudhurst, Kent and 9 Kings Bench Walk AND 3 Westbourne Park.
Played cricket for Eton and Oxford where he was a good effective batsman and a fine fielder (long leg).(I think it was whilst he was at school at Eton he played cricket against MJD's Winchester team? Or am I thinking of Ruggles-Brice?). Good sprint runner; in February, 1879 at Oxford, won the 100 yards race. Height Five feet 7 1/2 inches. weight Eleven Stone.Died November 21st 1887.(See Wisden 1888).
Robert, Greetings,
Very useful that find of yours.One wonders if others of Druitt's neighbours at 9KBW might have
been a bit squeezed for cash and had to flog off their furniture and allow their Mortgagee to sell their semi-detached house over their heads.
Doubtless, Montague Druitt "hung in there" as I have not heard of any furniture auctions for him. Though, if one were discovered this would provide another straw for Montague's suicidal back.
Any thoughts on the 1888 Kellys Directory for 9KBW?
JOHN RUFFELS. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2529
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 11:25 pm: | |
Hi John
From "The Times" Oct 23, 1888.
THE BANKRUPTCY ACT, 1883. - In the High Court of Justice. In Bankruptcy. No. 990 of 1888 Re Edward
Henslowe Bedford, of No. 9 King's Bench Walk Temple City lately residing at East Hill Villas Herne Bay, Kent, Solicitor.
Receiving Order made 18th September 1888.
Date of Order for Summary Administration 21st September 1888.
Date and place of First Meeting 30th October, 1888, at 2.30 o'clock, at Bankruptcy-buildings, Portugal-street, Lincoln's Inn.
Date of Public Examination, at 1 o'clock 14th November 1888.
Dated 22d October 1888. R.P. Harding, Chief Official Receiver.
I have seen reports of barristers from KBW (not no. 9) visiting gaming clubs, but I can't remember the precise year.
I'll try and check Kellys first chance I get. If you could post that info you mentioned, John, that would be great.
Robert
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 389
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 12:37 am: | |
Hello John,
It just struck me that it is odd that a healthy young man should die suddenly one year before Monty (who had offices in the same building) may have committed suicide.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 203
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 6:19 am: | |
Hi Robert,
An interesting article there about Edward Henslowe Bedford. This is the same man who acted for Lord Euston in the 1889 trial for libel, of the editor Ernest Parke. According to Stephen Knight's book Mr. Henslow Bedford continued to practice from this address until 1898, so bankruptcy cannot have affected him greatly.
Best Regards
John Savage |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2532
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 10:08 am: | |
Hi John
That's curious. I'll post anything further that I come across.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 239
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 11:27 pm: | |
Hello Jeffrey,
Yes, curious about Haskett-Smith.And equally about Edward Henslow Bedford. Looks like 9KB Walk was full of characters leading lives of quiet desparation!
I once thought the C.E. LACEY cleverly spotted by Robert, above, was the Lacey who taught at the same school as Montague Druitt at Blackheath (Valentine's)...Not so.
Incidentally, the book with the above information made it clear LACY and LACEY were strangely, interchangeable. According to my photocopy of the entry.
Robert,
Sterling work again. Thanks for sharing. From a random note I accumulated (no reference unfortunately) - "LACY -Charles Edward, Boys School, Friern Barnet, New Southgate (1903)".
Also:"BEDFORD, Cecil William, son of Edward Henslow Bedford, and Lucy Bedford of 31 Westmorland Road, Bayswater. Attended Merchant Taylor School 1889-1890.(C.W.) went to Buenos Aires and later South Africa. (Details from Register of Merchant Taylors School).
So, there are plenty of hares in this last item for people to chase: Batswater (Dr Dutton); Buenos Aires (Alonzo Maduro); and South Africa (frederick Deeming). C. W. Bedford must have known of THREE Rippers!
Robert:I shall provide the requested details of fellow occupants of 9 Kings Bench Walk in 1886(!) as a separate post.
JOHN RUFFELS. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 240
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 1:03 am: | |
Robert,
Thank you for your kind undertaking to search for more recent Kellys P O Directories for the fellow occupants of 9 Kings Bench walk than 1886.
Here are the fellow tenants I have found:
REGINALD BRIDIE DYKE ACLAND:B 1856.(Sixth son Sir Henry, Hon Physician to Prince of Wales.Winch. Coll. 1870; University Coll. Oxford 1874;M.A. 1883; Inner Temple 1881; Oxford Curcuit; Knigs Council 1904; Recorder of Oxford 1903;m.Helen Fox, d. of Rev. Thomas Fox of Abbas Combe, Wincanton (Dorset?); Address: 46 Palace Gardens, Terrace,W.
CHARLES HENRY ANDERSON:B 1838, y.son Rev. Richard Anderson, The Grange, Bedale, Yorkshire.Student Inner Temple 1864; Called to Bar Jan. 1867.South eastern Circuit. Author of Legal Book;Address: 39 Montague Square.
EDWARD HENSLOW(E) BEDFORD:....Solicitor:Admitted 1864
;Address: 20 Westbourne Square, Upper Westbourne Terrace. (1881: The Briars, Kingston); Partner(1897) Ernest George Bryant Godding at 52 Arbour Square, Stepney east & Newbury, Berkshire.
GEORGE SAMUEL BROWN:B.1842, eld. son Geo. Brown, Solicitor of London. City of London School to 1861; inner Temple 1882 (at age forty).Admitted Admitted to Bar 1883.(M.A.).No private address given.
FRANCIS J COLTMAN:Born 1832, third sonHon Justice Coltman.Wrangler Trinity Coll.Cambridge, 1860.(M.A.); Inner Temple, 1847 (aged fifteen!). Called to Bar 1860;Joint author of law book;Sometime Revising Barrister for Hull and Yorkshire East Riding; Address: 9 Atherstone Terrace, Gloucester Road,(Kensington).
HENRY GEORGE COOPER:Barrister not mentioned in "Foster's " MEN AT THE BAR " at 9KBW in 1881.
SPENCER LANGTON HOLLAND: Born 1856, 4th son Geo. Henry Holland of wimbledon, Surrey. Christchurch Coll., Oxford (M.A.); Lincolns Inn (aged 22), Called to Bar 1881.Address:Gayton Lodge, Wimbledon.
EDWARD WNDSOR HUSSEY: Born 5 Oct 1855, eld. son of Edward Hussey of Scotney Castle, Lamberhurst, Kent. Christchurch College, Oxford, M.A.; Inner Temple 1878; Called to Bar 1881; South Eastern Circuit 1882. Address: 6 Charles Street Grosvenor Square, w.
ARTHUR RICHARD JELF: Born 10 Sept. 1837, second son Rich. Wm Jelf of Pankow Berlin, Doctor of Divinity.Eton to 1856;Christchurch College, Oxford, B.A. 1860, M.A. 1863; Queens Counsel, 1880; Recorder of Shrewsbury from 1879 and Member of Oxford Circuit. Married Sept. 1867, Jane y. daughter of Rev. William Clark King,M.A., Vicar of Norham, Northumberland; No issue. Address ak House, Carlton, Putney, S.W.(Father late Canon of Christchurch, Oxford and Principal Kings College, London (1844-68).
CHARLES EDWARD LACY: Born 5 June 1846, son of Thomas Lacy, a solicitor, and Marrianna of 6 Tavistock Place, London. Attended Merchant Taylors School, 1860-62; admitted as a Solicitor 1868; (Died 12 March, 1914).Address (in 1886): 35 Lower Berkley Street.
THOMAS LAMBERT MEARES: Born 1839, second s. of Charles Thompson Meares of New York (U.S.A.) and formerly London, now deceased. Inner Temple 1865; Called to Bar 1868; University of London, 1870, M.A., LL.D, Member of Convocation, Associate of Kings College, London; Lieutenant - Colonel late
commanding 5th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers.Legal Book author. Member of South Eastern Circuit. Married 1875, Alice Catherine, eld. d. John henry Westcar Peel, (Baronet). Has issue. Address: 134 Portsdown Road, Maida Vale.
GEORGE SAINT JOHN MILDMAY:Born 24 Feb., 1856, son of Rev. Charles Arundal St John Mildmay, Rector of Denton, Norfolk, and also Marston, Yorkshire,and his wife Harriet Louisa, daughter Very Reverend Honorable George Neville-Grenville, Dean of Windsor. Winchester College, 1868; Exhibitioner, Corpus Christi Coll., Oxford, 1875; B.A. 1879; Inner Temple 1879; Called to Bar 1882; Midland Circuit. Lieutenant 24th Middlesex Royal Volunteers (Post Office), 1882. Captain 1887. Married 1898, Grace, eld. d. Percival Hambro, Esq., of Milton Abbas, Dorset. Address: 8 Prince Street, E.C. and 16 Bolton Street, Picadilly.
JOSEPH PHILLIPS: Little information. Barrister;Inner Temple 1882.Address: 9 Clifton Villas, Warwick Road.
HERBERT ADDINGTON RIGG: Born March 1845, second s. of Jonathan Rigg of Wrotham Hill Park, Kent. London University, 1863. Inner Temple, 1866; M.A.
Trinity College, 1871;Called to the Bar, 1871. Married 1880, Dora youngest d. William Chappell, Esq., F.S.A., Oatlands Park, Surrey. Address: Wykeham Lodge, Walton on Thames.
JOHN MARTIN ROUTH: Born 27 December, 1846, eld. son Reverend John William Routh, of Tylehurst, Berkshire; New College, Oxford, 1865; Inner Temple, 1869; Called to Bar, 1872. Member of Oxford Circuit.Recipient of Royal Humane Society Medal in list of 4th August, 1870; Berkshire Sessions, Probate and Administrations Court. Author of " Artistic Copyright". Address: 4 Danes Inn, The Strand.
JOHN JAMES HEATH SAINT: Born 27 January, 1828, eld. son of Rev. John James Saint of Groomsbridge Place, Kent. Eton; Christchurch Oxford 1850; Inner Temple, 1851; Called to Bar, 1854.Counsel for Mint in warwickshire Sessions 1870. Revising Barrister on Midlands Circuit 1870-71; Recorder of Newark 1870-84;
Recorder of Leicester, 1884. Legal Book author. Married 2nd Feb., 1871, Sarah, youngest d. of Andrew Lynch French, esq., of Lynch's Estates, St Kitts, West Indies. Address: 20 Stanford Road, Kensington.(1890 Address: 112 Lexham Gardens).
ALGERNON HASKETT-SMITH: see entry in separate post above.
W- B- STALLARD:No information collected.
However, I do recall a Stallard playing cricket, with, or against M.J.Druitt.Interestingly, I have a note, "Stallard, Frederick and Hemmerde, G.R.,
and Ball, Edward, lived side by side at Lewisham Hill, Blackheath in 1903".
WALTER BLACKETT TREVELYAN: Born 1821, son of Raleigh Trevelyan of Nether Witton, Northumberland. Gonville & Caius College, Cambridge, 1844. Admitted to Lincoln's Inn, 1844; Middle Temple, 1882. Married Helena Carolina, widowof Reverend B. Faussett, B.A.,...youngest daughter of Sir John Trevelyan, the fifth Baronet. Address: The Oaks, Hendon.
JOHN WINGFIELD: Born 1830, third son of Richard Wingfield of Billericay, Essex; London University, 1863; Inner Temple, 1877 (aged 47);Called to Bar, 1880; Assistant Grammar Master at Christs Hospital School, London. Member of the Convocation.M.A.. Address: Christs Hospital,E.C.
(Wicket Keeper, M.C.C. South Colts, May 1887).
ARTHUR WATKIN WILLIAMS-Wynn. Born 1856, son of Charles Watkin Williams-Wynn of Montgomeryshire. Member of Parliament.Mother: Lady Annora Pierpont (Earl of Manvers line);Christchurch College, Oxford; Inner Temple, 1882; Catain, Montgomeryshire Yeoman Cavalry. Address: 2 Berkley Street (Lower).
Phew.Hope there are no vital mistakes.
JOHN RUFFELS
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2540
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 3:37 am: | |
Hi John
Thanks very much indeed for posting that extensive information.
One more thing : could you clue me up again on the Ball who visited William Harvey while the Canford ball was being held?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2541
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 12:18 pm: | |
The above is my best bet for C.E. Lacy in the 1891 census.
Winslow Hall, Sheep St, Winslow Bucks
Henry J. Chinnery, 43, agent stock jobber born Clapham Surrey
Marion, 40, wife, born Yarmouth Norfolk
Ellice H., son, 16, born Teddington Middlesex
Dorothy N.T., daughter, 12, born ditto
Moresly, nephew, 16, born ditto
Gladys Knox, visitor, 13, born East Indies
Charles E. Lacy, visitor, 42, solicitor, born Hedley Surrey
Plus 12 servants!
Sorry about crappy image.
Robert
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2543
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 4:38 pm: | |
It looks as though Bedford was still in trouble in 1907. From "The Times" Nov 20th :
I'd hoped to find a death announcement or obit for 1914 for C.E. Lac(e)y, but so far not a sausage. However MCC Secretary F.E. Lacey fell seriously ill that year. I don't know if they were related.
By the way, folks, I think C.E. Lacy was probably just an intermediary during a sale, rather than that he was financially embarrassed himself.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 241
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 9:44 pm: | |
Good-day Robert,
You asked for the details of the visitor, mentioned in the local Dorset press as visiting William Harvey Druitt in the midst of the vital December whilst William's brother, Montague Druitt, was missing.
I obtained, second-hand information from Eric Hermes, the fact he had discovered the local
Bournemouth paper, during the grand Canford House Ball for the Prince of Wales' son, published details of visitors staying with local dignitaries.(Presumeably to attend the ball(?) ).
I think around the 17th December,1888, The SOUTHERN GUARDIAN or WIMBORNE GUARDIAN, revealed a " Mr R.(or Richard) Ball" was a houseguest of Mr William Druitt of Christchurch.
JOHN RUFFELS. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2544
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 4:58 am: | |
Thanks John
I found a Richard Francis Ball a while ago, and put it on the suicide letter thread.
I have a (doubtless doomed) hope of finding that the Elizabeth Sims, Matron, listed in Chris Scott's posting of the 1891 census for Valentine's school, was related to George Sims.
I tracked her back to the 1881 census, where she was still Matron at a school - a very strange school, because the Head seemed to be a gardener.
It was listed as being in Collins Square. 8 Eliot Place was next door. Where on earth 9 Eliot Place was in relation to it, I've no idea. It must have been somewhere around, but the numbering system was crazy.
Some of the boys at this school had names like Spencer The Horible (sic) Boyle. There were quite a few Horible Boyles!
When I looked at Valentine's school, I found that there were some Hemmerdes living next door.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 242
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 8:51 am: | |
Thanks Robert,
I am not sure which would be worse to suffer from, a Boyle or a Hemmerde!
JOHN RUFFELS |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 392
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 1:51 pm: | |
At least the name wasn't Lance Boyle.
I happen to own copies of THE CLEVELAND STREET SCANDAL by H. Montgomery Hyde (New York: Coward, McCann, & Geoghegan, Inc., c. 1976), and THE CLEVELAND STREET AFFAIR by Colin Simpson, Lewis Chester, and David Leith (Boston, Toronto: Little, Brown, & Co., c. 1976). In Hyde's book, on page 137, it states that the first WITNESS called by Lord Euston at the trial against Ernest Parke was Bedford: "The first of these was a friend of Lord Euston's, a solicitor named Edward Bedford, who deposed that he had bought a copy of the NORTH LONDON PRESS with the libellous article on the day of publication and showed it shortly afterwards to Lord Euston, who after having seen Mr. George Lewis, instructed him to begin criminal proceedings against the defendant." Later Montgomery Hyde writes this on page 149:
"Replying to [Sir Frank] Lockwood, who cross-examined him, Lord Euston said that it was not until he heard of the proceedings against Newlove and Veck the previous summer that it came to his mind that the house with which they were concerned was the one he had gone to on the sole occasion. SOme weeks later he heard that his name was being coupled with the house in Cleveland Street, when he told his solicitor friend, Mr. Bedford, and afterwards another friend, Lord Dungarvan, and they agreed to take the advice of a senior peer, Lord Dorchester, as being an older man and one whose judgement they thoroughly respected. Up to that time he had told no one about his experience, because he was 'thoroughly disgusted at being trapped into a place or caught in a place like that and was not going to talk about his own folly.'"
It seems that Edward Bedford was a friend of Lord Euston's, not his solicitor (who was Sir George Lewis, Victorian England's great society solicitor - just whom Lord Euston would have used. One wonders (given Bedford's track - record of bankruptcy)if the improvident solicitor ever get financial help from the notorious peer, and if his testimony at the Cleveland Street trial was freely given or bought.
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2546
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 3:54 am: | |
Jeff, be careful : even now the shade of Bedford may be having a chat with the shade of Euston......
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 393
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 8:24 pm: | |
Robert,
One wonders if the shade of Ernest Parkes is eavesdropping on Bedford and Euston's conversation for the next celestial edition of the North London PRESS.
Since the dead cannot sue for slander and libel, this time Euston is out of luck. Indeed his solicitor (Sir George Lewis, not Edward Bedford) can say, "Euston, we have a problem...."
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2557
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 8:00 am: | |
Nice one, Jeff. Yes, the dead cannot sue for slander or libel. However, the shade of Euston will probably argue that he only went to the cemetery the once, and didn't know what kind of place it was.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 395
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 11:30 pm: | |
Good point Robert. Possibly he thought the skeletons would be performing pose plastiques.
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2567
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 6:35 pm: | |
Hi Jeff
That brings to mind the Windmill Theatre. But imagine a cemetery that had "We never close" on the gate!
By the way, Jeff, I don't know which newspaper Monty usually read, but do you know if the personal columns of the "Times", "Telegraph" etc have been searched for discreet appeals for Monty to contact William? It seems to me the kind of thing William might have been expected to do, until he got the bad news on the 31st. I've had a quick look at the "Times" site for "Montagu(e)", "M.J.D." etc but so far no luck.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 396
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 9:58 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
I have only seen THE TIMES and THE PALL MALL GAZETTE (and the MANCHESTER GUARDIAN) for the period on microfilm at the New York Public Library
at 42nd Street. I suspect that William's inquiries about Monty would have been discreet, but would have been in a newspaper that Monty would have been known to read thoroughly. What was his favorite newspaper? Was it a London tabloid or one from Blackheath, or one from Dorset? In short, such a search may take a long time to make.
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 244
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 8:40 pm: | |
Clever thinking Robert concerning the "Personal Messages" column of newspapers by William Druitt for his brother Montague.Quite a logical direction when you think about it.
Another thought, when people went missing, (and G R Sims alleges Montague's friends went through the proper channels when he went missing), police used to put up posters on the noticeboards outside their stations saying: "MISSING" and with a recent photograph and/or physical description and summary of when last seen.
Did the Police authorities keep a register of these situations? Was there a central authority which monitored these occurences for statistical or financial purposes?
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2574
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 7:39 am: | |
Hi John
It looks as though they kept some kind of record, to judge from these two items from the "Times" of Aug 20th 1875 and Sept 12th 1888 :
The Sally Army did some work on missing persons too, but probably not on persons of Monty's class :
("Times" Jan 4th 1893)
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 245
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 1:16 am: | |
Thanks for uncovering those details, Robert.
I wonder if the (in house) POLICE JOURNAL or other Police publications of that ilk, gave details of missing persons exclusively for police station circulation only? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2589
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 2:58 pm: | |
I don't know, John. Do you know where such material might be preserved?
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 247
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 7:50 am: | |
Hello Robert,
I once wrote to New Scotland Yard requesting details of Walter Boultbee, a Private Secretary to three Police Commissioners, and they responded by sending a photo-copy extract from the POLICE REVIEW of December, 1897 showing a death announcement.
It is highly likely the research service at New Scotland Yard could guide you.
(See my post on the Police Seaside Home thread). |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2596
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 2:45 pm: | |
OK, John, thanks very much.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 398
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 11:21 pm: | |
This weekend I was going through the TIMES of London for November 1888 and into (but not through) December 1888. I did not find any comments about Monty in the "Personnel columns" - at least until December 8, 1888. However, I found this interesting item in the Personnels which I leave for you all to consider.
It first appeared (as far as I can tell) in the TIMES of November 10, 1888, on page 1, col. b:
"MARY JANE COMRIE is requested to communicate with the undersigned, when she will hear of something to her advantage. If dead any one sending proof of her death to the undersigned will be well rewarded. Last heard of five years ago. She was the widow of staff surgeon Peter Comrie, R.N. Scotch, American, and Australian papers, please copy - Harcourt and Son, 13 Mooregate-street, London, N.C. Solicitors."
Word for word, this advertisement appeared in the TIMES on November 21, 1888 (page 1, col.b); November 24, 1888 (page 1, col. b); November 28, 1888 (page 1, col. b); December 1, 1888 (page 1, col. b); December 5, 1888 (page 1, col. b); and December 8, 1888 (page 1, col. b). Time problems prevented me from continuing my review of the "Personnels" for the rest of December, and into January.
It is a contemporary mini-mystery. Solicitors were always seeking missing legatees and heirs. One just has to recall the Tichborne Case, and the constant inquiries for the missing Sir Roger
Tichborne by his mother (which eventually reached the attention of Arthur Orton). However, you can guess that the similarity of the name "Mary Jane Comrie" to "Mary Jane Kelly" caught my attention.
Naturally I began to think that the extensive mutilations of the body of Ms Kelly, could have been responsible for hiding the features of the face of the Victim which were equally ruined. Could it have been to hide the identity of the Victim? Who was the Victim? Mary Kelly? A substitute? Possibly someone whose death or removal actually helped enrich sombody else?
I can't suggest that Ms Comrie was Ms Kelly. There is nothing beyond a timing coincidence to suggest it. But maybe, we have been too quick to dismiss the murder of Ms Kelly as just the culmination of a series of hideous murders of prostitutes. Perhaps it was a series of murders to help cover up that last one, but the last one had an economic motive.
Jeff |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 909
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 3:12 am: | |
Hi Jeff,
A very imaginative thought, although possible, i would consider that scenerio unlikely, however I tend to agree that the clue to these murders lies with the millers court victim, and i would suggest that once she was despatched, to kill again would not be the murderers intention,
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2604
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 5:28 am: | |
Hi Jeff
The last reference to a living Peter Comrie seems to be Mar 10th 1865 (pg 12), when he was transferred to the Sparrowhawk.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 399
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 9:07 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
Is it the TIMES of March 10, 1865, on page 12? Or if not, what is the page reference to?
Great name for a warship, "H.M.S. Sparrowhawk". It sounds like it means business, doesn't it?
Hi Richard,
The possibilities about the relation of Mary Kelly's death to the others in the series are endless. It can be a copycat, or part of the series, or the culmination of the series, and this doesn't even touch upon the issues of identity (who was the Victim really) or the point of the murder (or of the murders). It is most likely the culmination of the series, but I have often wondered what the killer could have done as a follow-up to it. A friend of mine named Larry suggested some hideous possibility, but it sounded too complicated and messy for the killer to have tried. I once suggested the killer might have attacked some well known West end society or theatrical lady of "loose morals" (Mrs. Langtry or Daisy, Countess of Warwick, for example) publicly in her carriage - but the chances are that the killer would not only have been quickly caught, but might have been lynched. I think he may have culminated with Kelly, but it is equally likely that he could not think of anything colorful enough (and possible enough) to try again.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2608
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 2:32 am: | |
Yes, Jeff, page 12, col B.
There was an earlier appearance for the advert on Oct 4th pg 1.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2698
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 12:52 pm: | |
Here are the Post Office Directory listings for 9 KBW. As you can see, Monty was listed after he was dead! I can only guess that he gave his name to the Directory in late 88, obviously with no idea at the time that he’d be throwing himself in the Thames. Out of curiosity, I checked 1890, but Monty’s name was no longer there.
1887
Acland Reginald Brodie Dyke, barrister
Anderson Chas. Henry, QC., M.P.
Bedford & Bate, solicitors
Brown George Samuel, barrister
Coltman Fras. Joseph, barrister
Cooper Henry George
Druitt Montague John, barrister
Jelf Arthur Richard, Q.C.
Lacy Charles Edward, solicitor
Mears T. Lambrt, M.A., LL.D, barrister
Mildmay, George St. John, barrister
Normandy Frank, barrister
Rickards Arthur George, barrister
Rigg Herbert Addington, barrister
Routh John Martin, barrister
Saint John Jas. Heath, barrister
Smith Algernon Haskett, barrister
Trevelyan Walter Blackett, barrister
Wingfield John, barrister
1888
Acland Reginald Brodie Dyke, barrister
Anderson Chas. Henry, Q.C., M.P.
Bedford & Bate, solicitors
Brown George Samuel, barrister
Coltman Fras. Joseph, barrister
Cooper Henry George
Croft Sir Herbert George Denman, bart, barrister
Druitt Montague John, barrister
Haskett-Smith Algernon, barrister
Holman Herbert, barrister
Jelf Arthur Richard, Q.C.
Lacy Charles Edward, solicitor
Mears T. Lambrt, M.A. LL.D., barrister
Mildmay, George St. John, barrister
Normandy Frank, barrister
Rigg Herbert Addington, barrister
Routh John Martin, barrister
Saint John Jas. Heath, barrister
Trevelyan Waltr Blackett, barrister
Wingfield John, barrister
1889
Acland Reginald Brodie Dyke, barrister
Anderson Chas Henry, Q.C., M.P.
Bedford Edwd Henslowe, solicitor
Brown George Samuel, barrister
Campbell Lord Colin, barrister
Coltman Fras. Joseph, barrister
Cooper Henry George
Croft Sir Herbert George Denman, bart, barrister
Druitt Montague John, barrister
Greenward James, barrister
Jelf Arthur Richard, Q.C.
Lacy Charles Edward, solicitor
Mears T. Lambrt, M.A., LL.D., barrister
Normandy Frank, barrister
Rigg Herbert Addington, barrister
Routh John Martin, barrister
Saint John Jas. Heath, barrister
Trevelyan Waltr Blackett, barrister
Wingfield John, barrister
Robert
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 417
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 10:21 pm: | |
Hi Robert
I was reviewing the three lists of neighbors of Monty's at his chambers from 1887 - 1889. None of the names ring any bells with me, but there are some interesting points.
The description of Monty's legal career doing a downward spiral made one paint a view of his having to scrounge around for cheap chambers because he would be unable to get good ones. But look at his neighbors. He has a member of Parliament, Mr. Charles Henry Anderson, Q.C. [Queens Counsel - a term of importance in English legal circles - Kings or Queens Counsel is only allowed to a certain number of barristers who have been impressive in court. After a certain number of years they are allowed "to take silk", which refers to their robes - they have a different style of robe for court work, and the letters "K.C." or "Q.C." follow their name from then on.] Anderson is not the only Q.C. listed. Another neighbor of Monty's was Arthur Richard Jelf, Q.C. Like Anderson he was a neighbor all three years. There is also (in the 1888 and 1889 lists) Sir Herbert Geore Denman, bart, barrister. On the final list for 1889 there is one Lord Colin Campbell, barrister (of the Scots clan - perhaps related to the military hero of the Sepoy Revolt). Two aristocrats! One can hardly speak disparagingly about this group of lawyers.
The following names appear on all three lists:
Reginald Brodie Dyke Acland, barrister
Charles Henry Anderson, Q.C., M.P.
George Samuel Brown, barrister
Francis Joseph Coltman, barrister
Herbert George Cooper
Druitt
Arthur Richard Jelf, Q.C.
Charles Edward Lacy, solicitor
T. Lambrt Mears, M.A., LL.D., barrister
Frank Normandy, barrister
Herbert Addington Rigg, barrister
John Martin Routh, barrister
John James Heath Saint, barrister
Walter Blackett Trevelyan, barrister
John Wingfield, barrister
There is a firm of solicitors called Bedford & Bate in the years 1887 and 1888. However, it is not on the list for 1889 - and there is a name of one Edward Henslowe Bedford solicitor on the 1889 list. Possibly he was a partner in the earlier firm, and kept it's chambers.
An Algernon Haskett Smith, barrister appeared in the 1887 and 1888 lists, but not in the 1889 list. In the 1888 list his last name is Haskett-Smith, not Smith.
A George St. John Mildmay, barrister appears in the 1888 and 1889 lists, but not the 1887 lists.
The following persons only appeared on one of the three lists:
1887
Arthur George Rickards, barrister
1888
Sir Herbert George Denman Croft, bart, barrister
Herbert Holman, barrister
1889
James Greenward, barrister
It is likely that all these men knew Druitt to some degree or other. What would be interesting to learn is if any of them left letters or diaries that commented on him at all.
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2729
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 4:06 am: | |
Hi Jeff
Yes, these are hardly down-at-heel chambers, are they? I wonder whether we can find out how much rent Monty was paying.
Of course, we don't know what else Monty may have been doing to augment his income. When I could still get onto the "Times" site, I found advertisments - late 88, I think - from someone offering to coach law students, and styling himself "LEGES". But I seem to recall that the address wasn't 9 KBW. Still, who knows, Monty may have done a spot of paid coaching.
Re possible letters etc from people who knew Monty, I wonder whether any of the judges in whose courts he appeared wrote memoirs.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 954
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 4:16 am: | |
Hi Jeff,impressive list indeed of upper class gents who no doubt "looked out" for each other when in trouble and eased eac h others access to various social and economic privileges[old school tie type of thing].Cant imagine any of these legal people particularly wanting to be over associated with "Jack the Ripper"-can you?Or to have people come gawping at the chambers in King"s Bench Walk---dont think it would have gone down very well in court circles.Even if they were "in the Know" about suspicions held about their colleague and fellow "gentleman" and damned good cricketer Montague Druitt I doubt very much that any of those people listed above would have "broken rank" to the press or public after all who were these damn people ---only scum -lowest of the low damn it---had it coming old chaps etc etc ad nauseum.
Sorry Jeff to be this cynical but I"m sure that half the reason we know so little is because of attitudes like this whether it was the blue bloods from Oxbridge "closing rank" or the upper echelons of the police force in a quandary over The Sun"s headlines about Thomas Cutbush and the need to either clear the Cutbush name of JtR taint or even possibly to drive their fellow colleague round the bend[Charles Cutbush I mean ofcourse] by leaking rumour about his nephew to this effect-after all old Charles had let the side down a bit with his talk about pay and conditions in the police force.
Just a few thoughts on possible "cover ups".
Best Natalie |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 265
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 7:29 am: | |
Hello Robert,Jeff and Natalie,
Well done Robert. Thank you for following up your promise to post later Post Office Directory lists of occupants of 9KBW.
The mention of a "Charles Henry Anderson Q.C., M.P." interests me. Was he a relative of Sir Robert Anderson? And, more importantly, was he, by any chance a "West of England M.P." ? Perhaps the one who in 1889 felt his hunch about JTR ending it in the Thames was right?
When I get a moment I will go through the lists more thoroughly. I think there might be a definite link between these chambers and the graduates of the Inner Temple.I understand most school graduates from Winchester (Monty's alma mater),went to the same College at Oxford, and most attended the same Inns of Court. Thus echoing Jeff and Natalie's sentiments about 'cover-ups' and 'the old school tie'.
I seem to recall there are books, or directories which list mini-biographies of Members of Parliament.(By Charles Dod?). Can someone please look at one of these and check the constituency this M.P. represented? Thanks.
Is "Sir Herbert George Denman" the well-known Legal Lord of the future, Lord Denman? |
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 382
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 7:52 am: | |
John
A while ago I copied the names of West Country MPs from the Post Office Directory for 1891. I've just looked through my list, and can't see any Andersons among them.
Chris Phillips
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2730
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 12:57 pm: | |
As a student, Jenni Pegg still has access to the "Times" website, and I've asked her if she can look this up.
Robert |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 593
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 12:58 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
I got your message and am on to it thurs.
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2731
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 1:02 pm: | |
OK, Jenni, thanks very much.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 212
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 2:04 pm: | |
Hi All,
Kings Bench walk is situated in what is known as the "inner and middle temple". They are part of the inns of court, going back to medievl times, and today better known simply as the Temple.
As Robert has said above they can hardly be described as run down, laying between Fleet Street and the Thames, temple is a large collection of buildings all of which are occupied by barristers, Q.C's and judges.
According to ancient custom any law student training to be a barrister in Britain must join one of the Inns of Court and dine there 24 times, as well as passing their examinations, before being officially qualified.
Anyone wishing to learn more about the temple should go to:
www.innertemple.org.uk/index2.htm Here if you look around can be found pictures of Kings Bench Walk.
Best Regards
John Savage
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 418
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 9:01 pm: | |
Hi Natalie (and all):
I know that you are right - but you can never tell. I think every soul on this planet has (among their own family, friends, and acquaintances) people they were sufficiently intimate with that they will excuse them their trespasses. If you doubt that, next time a major crime story occurs and the television news people go to look at the neighborhood the perpetrator (or alleged perpetrator) lived in, notice how frequently they will say the perpetrator was a nice neighbor, who always had a kind word, etc. They hedge their comments with, "I would never have suspected him..." comments.
In my own life I had a close friend from my job. He is dead now, but after his death it was learned he did a horrendous act (which - ironically - bears a slight comparison to the subject matter of this board). That he was guilty there is no denying, but to this day I feel bad for him, and only remember him in an earlier, happier period of his existance.
Also, keep in mind that we never know what is around the next bend in the river of time (sorry for such a corny expression). You can know X for two years, and write about what a nice guy X was in helping you get settled in your office, or in getting a parking permit, or whatever, and suddenly fine him a serial rapist or a spy later on in your acquaintance. These gentlemen of the bar may have been keeping diaries (shades of the Maybrick controversy, may the Lord forgive me), or writing letters, in 1887 and 1888 in which they talk of that nice Mr. Druitt. They may even write (after December 1888) of the unexpected "sudden" death of Druitt. They may never learn of the stories that MacNaghten referred to in his statement. So yes, while a tacit conspiracy of silence is understandable by these gentlemen (and very likely) equally likely there may be some vestiges somewhere of friendly pre-December 1888 comments regarding Monty.
Jeff |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 595
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 8:15 am: | |
Hi everyone,
I think this is from a set of election results. I would paste in the article but its massive so I'll type the info below and put the ref after it.
The constituency is in Scotland.
ELGIN AND NAIRN SHIRES
ANDERSON, C.H (Elgin and Nairn shires).- Mr Charles Henry Anderson, Q.C.(Gladstone Liberal), of Montagu-square, was born at The Vicarage, Burneston, Yorkshire, in 1838, and is the youngest son of the Rev. Richard Anderson, of Lincoln, and late Vicar of Burneston. He was educated privately, and was inwarded two exhibitions by the Council of Legal Education. In 1867 he was called to the Bar at the Lunar Temple, and in 1885 was appointed a Queen's Counsel. Mr Anderson, who married, in 1860, Ada, eldest daughter of Mr. Edmund Pontifex, of Cromwell Rd,S.W., unsuccessfully contested this constituency at the general election 1885.
Times weds 30 June 1886, pp16
Jennifer
ps hope this helps! it was all i could find for this period apart form a brief mention of which way he voted at one of the sessions
(Message edited by jdpegg on July 22, 2004)
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 957
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 8:22 am: | |
Hi Jeff.yes I agree with all that you say.I have also felt rather sorry for poor old Monty-either way he has been tainted posthumously whether its because he thought[in delusion]he was JtR and told family and friends to this effect whether he was completely innocent of everything suspected concerning JtR but possibly may have been gay and bigots who knew of this decided he was sexually insane or whatever and therefore concluded he could have been JtR etc etc .Clearly there is something we dont know here and it would be very helpful if we did so he could be exonerated posthumously from such a dreadful label as the "prime Suspect" of Machnaghtens and likewise poor old Kosminski re Anderson.Their names deserve to be cleared or the shocking events of 1888 interpreted with regard to psychotic attack
or a predilection for the serial killing of prostitutes[a vast gulf existing in my mind between the two possible types of killer who carried out these murders].
Myself I cant believe the people of the East end would by and large have protected the identity of JtR though I can understand people being afraid to give evidence that might have led to his capture.However I CAN believe there could have been a cover up of Druitt---to some extent Machnaghten is saying so and I can also believe it could have been very embarrassing for the police of that time if it was thought JtR was a police officer or the nephew of one and again there could have been a deliberate obfuscation of evidence or even its destruction.
But yes Jeff most of us do it one way or another its just that most of us thankfully dont have to hide the identity of a serial killer.
How sad though about your friend and colleague and his troubles.
Best Wishes Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2733
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 9:08 am: | |
Jennifer, thanks for that. He sounds like the one we want.
Robert |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Chief Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 597
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 9:34 am: | |
Hi Robert,
good - I failed to mention the yrs i checked were 1885-1888.
Jennifer
"Think things, not words." - O.W. Holmes jr |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 422
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 9:50 pm: | |
One name on the three lists bears looking more carefully at - Lord Colin Campbell, barrister (on 1889 list). The Campbell involved is either a descendant of General, Sir Colin Campbell of Indian fame, who was eventually made Baron Clyde and Strathnairn (1792 - 1863) or a member of the Campbell family that is headed by the Marquis of Argyle to this day.
If it is the latter, it might possibly be the Lord Colin Campbell (4th son of the Marquis in the 1880s), who had a very messy divorce case in 1886. An account of it is in a book called THEIR GOOD NAMES, by H. Montgomery Hyde (I believe that he is the author). The divorce led to claims by Lord Colin and his wife that each had been unfaithful within months of their wedding in 1880. As a result the divorce was not granted, but all the dirty details came out.
Lady Campbell was accused of having affairs with four men, including the head of the London Fire Department, Captain Eyre Massey Shaw (a well-known womanizer, who is pointedly spoofed by W.S.Gilbert in a song in IOLANTHE). But another was Lord Blandford (who eventually became Duke of Marleborough). Blandford was the older brother of Lord Randolph Churchill (who attended that party that Monty Druitt went to). I would love to know more about this barrister named Lord Colin Campbell, and his antecedents. If he is the would-be divorcee, it would be a bit more interesting.
Jeff |
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